Created/formed

[Bee Eff]

Often non-LDS use the following verse to attack LDS doctrines on the Godhead, particularly Christ:

Isa. 43: 10

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Now, the Bible states that our physical body was formed.

Christ's physical body is in fact a creation. Doesn't this mean that a Christian must believe Christ was created? Christ could not be Christ without the created body. If the fact that Christ existed prior to his physical form (John 1:1) and that due to this he is not created/formed, doesn't LDS doctrine on existence, particularly in regards to ex nihilo creation, state that Christ has always existed and thus Christ was never a "created" being using the same logic?

So, in conclusion the argument to a "created" Christ as a detraction against LDS doctrine falls flat.

[Notquitewetyet]

Often non-LDS use the following verse to attack LDS doctrines on the Godhead, particularly Christ:

Isa. 43: 10

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Now, the Bible states that our physical body was formed.

Christ's physical body is in fact a creation. Doesn't this mean that a Christian must believe Christ was created? Christ could not be Christ without the created body. If the fact that Christ existed prior to his physical form (John 1:1) and that due to this he is not created/formed, doesn't LDS doctrine on existence, particularly in regards to ex nihilo creation, state that Christ has always existed and thus Christ was never a "created" being using the same logic?

So, in conclusion the argument to a "created" Christ as a detraction against LDS doctrine falls flat.

They'd say Christ is either two natures (fully God and fully man) and the God nature is uncreated, but eternally begotten. I think though this would be a bit of an issue for non-Chalcedonian Christians with Jesus being fully GODMAN, but we don't have too many Coptic Orthodox on this board.

[jkfrost]

Here is the question I asked - but has yet to be answered. - still would like to know.

Does Hypostatic Union require that Jesus the man not be part of the Trinity?

I heard about this version of Jude 1:5 today where Jesus was mentioned.

1:5 Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all)

that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.

Net Bible

commentary:

"tc â?¡ The reading ᾿Ιησοῦς (Ihsous, â??Jesusâ?) is deemed too hard by several scholars,

since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel.

However, not only does this reading enjoy the strongest support from a variety of early witnesses

(e.g., A B 33 81 1241 1739 1881 2344 pc vg co Or1739mg), but the plethora of variants

demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they seemed to exchange κύριος (kurios, â??Lordâ?) or θεός (qeos, â??Godâ?)

for ᾿Ιησοῦς (though 72 has the intriguing reading θεὸς Χριστός [qeos Cristos, â??God Christâ?] for ᾿Ιησοῦς).

In addition to the evidence supplied in NA27 for this reading, note also {88 322 323 424c 665 915 2298 eth Cyr Hier Bede}.

As difficult as the reading ᾿Ιησοῦς is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation

(Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate.

sn The construction our Master and Lord, Jesus Christ in v. 4 follows Granville Sharpâ??s rule (see note on Lord).

The construction strongly implies the deity of Christ.

This is followed by a statement that Jesus was involved in the salvation

(and later judgment) of the Hebrews. He is thus to be identified with the Lord God, Yahweh.

Verse 5, then, simply fleshes out what is implicit in v. 4."

##########

It leads me to this question:

Does Hypostatic Union require that Jesus the man not be part of the Trinity

and therefore part of the doings in the OT before he was born?

They force the real man Jesus to be separated from his divinity to make a point of doctrine somewhat work out.

[Bee Eff]

They'd say Christ is either two natures (fully God and fully man) and the God nature is uncreated, but eternally begotten. I think though this would be a bit of an issue for non-Chalcedonian Christians with Jesus being fully GODMAN, but we don't have too many Coptic Orthodox on this board.

The LDS doctrine still does not conflict with such a view. Christ has always existed and always will. Christ is the only one in the pre-earth existence "like unto God. (Abraham 3:24) Christ is God, and as such will be and always has been God in LDS theology. I also believe Abraham 3 supports the idea that the God-nature of Christ is not created.

Abraham 3:21-28

21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

[William the Conqueror]

The LDS doctrine still does not conflict with such a view. Christ has always existed and always will. Christ is the only one in the pre-earth existence "like unto God. (Abraham 3:24) Christ is God, and as such will be and always has been God in LDS theology. I also believe Abraham 3 supports the idea that the God-nature of Christ is not created.

Abraham 3:21-28

21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

Well now Bee Eff,

How does that square with Satan being Jesus' spirit brother and 68 other sons of Elohim as well? Is Satan also an uncreated God? If the counsel of 70 had selected Satan to be the redeemer how different history would have been. Right? Satan the savior of the world (also God?)

[Bee Eff]

Well now Bee Eff,

How does that square with Satan being Jesus' spirit brother and 68 other sons of Elohim as well? Is Satan also an uncreated God? If the counsel of 70 had selected Satan to be the redeemer how different history would have been. Right? Satan the savior of the world (also God?)

Intelligence was neither created nor can be.

D&C 93: 29

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Christ always existed, as did all of Heavenly Father's children. Our bodies were created though, as was Christ's.

[LDSMusic483]

Well now Bee Eff,

How does that square with Satan being Jesus' spirit brother and 68 other sons of Elohim as well? Is Satan also an uncreated God? If the counsel of 70 had selected Satan to be the redeemer how different history would have been. Right? Satan the savior of the world (also God?)

Satan had the potential to be a God, but he rebelled against God the Father. He did not keep his first estate so he thus lost that opportunity.

[Richard]

Intelligence was neither created nor can be.

D&C 93: 29

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Christ always existed, as did all of Heavenly Father's children. Our bodies were created though, as was Christ's.

My mind is wraped around God has always existed, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Everthing else was created by them, and for them. We as created beings get to share in what they have always shared in "Love" A gift to creation. We can live in it or try to live outside of it. One brings eternal joy and happiness, the other brings death and separation from it. He lets us choose, otherwise we would be merely puppets. I choose to be a puppet of God, all on my own. And I am happy with my choice to date.

You wrote: "Satan had the potential to be a God, but he rebelled against God the Father. He did not keep his first estate so he thus lost that opportunity."

I would say he lost it because he wanted equality with God, being created by God this was impossible, not something to be grasped at as it was freely given. its in surrendering to Him we get to be like Him, adoption comes to mind. So as a fallen angel, what did this fallen angel have to offer Adam and Eve in the garden that they did not already have? What Satan gave up? I know of one word that pretty much sums it up. What they gave up.

Jesus has always been with God and is God the eternal Son. The Godhead is of relationship, but it is One.

Angels, Satan, men as the scriptures tell us where all created by the Godhead through Jesus, very Biblical. Jesus lessoned Himself and became man to save us in a special way. What Adam could not do Trinity in Jesus did.

You have to look at all the scriptures as a whole, not just pick passages here and there. If you want the biblical passages about what I am speaking, let me know. But I thibk you already know and have to dismiss them as faulty.

Anyway makes sense to me, not forcing anything on you.God Bless

Rich