Polygamy

[Pahoran]

I've only skimmed this thread.

Has anyone brought up the point that since there is roughly a 50/50 ratio of men/women that when 1 man takes an additional wife, there is one man who will be left without a wife?

If the most powerful men claim the most wives, there will be MANY peasants men who have no wife at all.

This may be true. But it brings up a relevant point of contrast between FLDS and authentic LDS practices in times past.

We are told that the FLDS expel young single men as they approach marriageable age in order to keep the ratio favourable to the incumbent polygamists. This is in contrast to Brigham, who chided the single men for not doing their duty and getting married, which if they did, would relieve the leaders of the Church of the duty of taking so many wives.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Zeta-Flux]

Is there a rational position for being against the practice of polygamy?

Yes.

For example: If I believed that God has commanded me to be against the practice of polygamy, it would be rational for me to be against the practice of polygamy. (Not to say he has commanded me to do such, just to answer your question.)

[Scottie]

So, your position positted here is:

Polygamy is wrong because if everyone were polygamous not all men would be able to marry.

Given this, we must condemn celibacy. If people are celibate someone will be unable to marry.

Not necessarily. Both men and women can be celibate.

[Bee Eff]

Yes.

For example: If I believed that God has commanded me to be against the practice of polygamy, it would be rational for me to be against the practice of polygamy. (Not to say he has commanded me to do such, just to answer your question.)

And the individual that has no religious obligation to not practice polygamy, are you against his practice? The question is in regards to general humanity, are you against the practice, period, and why?

Not necessarily. Both men and women can be celibate.

But what if less men or less women choose to be celibate? Are you assuming that the absolutely unnatural state of celibacy will result in an equal rate among the two genders?

[Scottie]

This may be true. But it brings up a relevant point of contrast between FLDS and authentic LDS practices in times past.

We are told that the FLDS expel young single men as they approach marriageable age in order to keep the ratio favourable to the incumbent polygamists. This is in contrast to Brigham, who chided the single men for not doing their duty and getting married, which if they did, would relieve the leaders of the Church of the duty of taking so many wives.

Regards,

Pahoran

Perhaps the reason these young men weren't getting married is because there were was a shortage of women available TO marry??

[Pahoran]

Perhaps the reason these young men weren't getting married is because there were was a shortage of women available TO marry??

Not according to Brigham. He thought there was a shortage of faithful young men willing to marry.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Scottie]

But what if less men or less women choose to be celibate? Are you assuming that the absolutely unnatural state of celibacy will result in an equal rate among the two genders?

A celibate person can still marry. Sex isn't a requirement for marriage. There are plenty of people in this world who are forced into celebacy for a myriad of health reasons. This doesn't have anything to do with marriage.

Marriage is a requirement for polygamy. When you marry an extra wife, you are taking one out of the pool of available women.

[ebeddoulos]

Perhaps the reason these young men weren't getting married is because there were was a shortage of women available TO marry??

Do you have data to substantiate your "perhaps"? If so, lease provide it.

[SolarPowered]

When you marry an extra wife, you are taking one out of the pool of available women.

Interesting stat I heard from a GA about 10 years ago: In the LDS Church, there were at that time five times as many unmarried women as unmarried men. (I am pretty sure this included elderly widows.)

[Scottie]

Not according to Brigham. He thought there was a shortage of faithful young men willing to marry.

Regards,

Pahoran

Well, just because he thought that doesn't make it so.

Perhaps that was his perception. I find it just as plausible that that these men wanted to marry, but there just weren't enough women. BY, for whatever reason, assumed these men didn't WANT to get married.

Also, how in the world did the idea that you had to marry a woman in order to take care of her come about?? What was wrong with simply giving a woman sufficient for her needs without taking her as a wife?

[Bee Eff]

A celibate person can still marry. Sex isn't a requirement for marriage. There are plenty of people in this world who are forced into celebacy for a myriad of health reasons. This doesn't have anything to do with marriage.

Marriage is a requirement for polygamy. When you marry an extra wife, you are taking one out of the pool of available women.

I am referring to celibacy as those willfully abstaining from marriage. You are sidestepping this aspect of the argument you presented above.

[Tsuzuki]

I have no clue. At present the data as to hippocampus size is inconclusive as to being a cause of a behavior or an effect of behavior.

Fair enough.

[Scottie]

Do you have data to substantiate your "perhaps"? If so, lease provide it.

It's an alternate theory, posed as a question. Not a statement of fact!

Hence the "perhaps".

Get a grip man!

[SolarPowered]

What was wrong with simply giving a woman sufficient for her needs without taking her as a wife?

You use the passive voice well. Who is the unnamed entity who would be "giving a woman sufficient for her needs," if not her husband?

[Ihearya]

These are not polygamy, they are aside considerations. Polygamy itself is what is being examined.

I disagree.

[Tsuzuki]

A celibate person can still marry.

No they can't. The definition of "celibate" is "not married".

[Scottie]

You use the passive voice well. Who is the unnamed entity who would be "giving a woman sufficient for her needs," if not her husband?

I was responding to Pahorans statement, This is in contrast to Brigham, who chided the single men for not doing their duty and getting married, which if they did, would relieve the leaders of the Church of the duty of taking so many wives.

So, THEY (the leaders of the church) who are chiding the men for not marrying the women, therefore THEY (the leaders of the church) have to marry THEM (the so many wives) to provide for THEM (the so many wives).

Clear?

[SolarPowered]

Clear?

As mud.

[Scottie]

No they can't. The definition of "celibate" is "not married".

The classical definition used to mean this, but, as English is a living language, it now means "a person who abstains from sexual relations".

dictionary.com definition

[Scottie]

I am referring to celibacy as those willfully abstaining from marriage. You are sidestepping this aspect of the argument you presented above.

Ok, the gist, if I am understanding you correctly, is that there are reasons why a man or a woman may choose not to get married. A vow of celibacy is one of many reasons. Correct?

Obviously these situations are happening now. Yet we all still seem to be able to find a partner. I don't see a massive shortage of women or men.

Do you think that in a polygamist society the lifestyle choice to not get married would somehow drastically favor one gender over the other? If so, why?

[Zeta-Flux]

And the individual that has no religious obligation to not practice polygamy, are you against his practice?

No, but if God asked me to I would.

The question is in regards to general humanity, are you against the practice, period, and why?

Oh, I thought you were asking if it is possible to have rational reasons for being against the practice, not whether or not I have personal rational objections.

[SolarPowered]

Obviously these situations are happening now. Yet we all still seem to be able to find a partner. I don't see a massive shortage of women or men.

You haven't talked to many single LDS women, have you? There is a massive shortage of available men in the Church.

[Scottie]

You haven't talked to many single LDS women, have you. There is a massive shortage of available men in the Church.

Personally, I think the sisters standards are too high. There are plenty of available men, just not the pinnacle of perfection, waiting to be translated men that these women seem to want.

I guess you haven't heard the story about my TBM GF I had a few months back....another time...

[SolarPowered]

Personally, I think the sisters standards are too high. There are plenty of available men, just not the pinnacle of perfection, waiting to be translated men that these women seem to want.

I guess you haven't heard the story about my TBM GF I had a few months back....another time...

Their standards are perhaps another issue. There are in fact far more single women than single men in the Church.

Edit to add: Regarding their standards, it is also the case that the available males have been heavily "picked over," so it is understandable that many ladies are uninterested in the remaining dregs of the barrel.

[Pahoran]

A celibate person can still marry. Sex isn't a requirement for marriage. There are plenty of people in this world who are forced into celebacy for a myriad of health reasons. This doesn't have anything to do with marriage.

Actually it does. While the popular (and late) meaning of the word has come to entail "Abstaining from sexual relationships," the proper and original meaning of celibacy meant being unmarried, not never having sex.

Marriage is a requirement for polygamy. When you marry an extra wife, you are taking one out of the pool of available women.

While when a person chooses to become celibate, they are likewise removing themselves from the pool of available marriage partners.

I don't know why you are quibbling about this point, Scottie.

Regards,

Pahoran