Major Book Of Morman Related Discovery Iron Ore Mine Discovered In Peru

[LifeOnaPlate]

The Amplified Bible: 2 Sam. 22: 35 ..........bow of bronze.

New International Version: 2 Sam. 22: 35 .....bow of bronze.

and so forth and so on.

Edited to add NEW KINGS JAMES VERSION: 2 Sam. 22: 35.....bend a bow of bronze.

So what does the Joseph Smith Revised KJ version say?

Hold on, you're criticizing BoM archeology and you believe in the Bible? Oh my.

[cdowis]

Also, there are many anachronisms in the BoM where much evidence contrary to what the BoM says has been found.

Could you be specific. What specific evidence which has been "found" which contradicts the BOM text. We are, of course, ignoring the "not found, not exist" fallacy, I presume.

With all due respect, I think you are full of baloney, but let's see. Normally you have solid, thoughtful posts, but I think you went over the cliff on this one.

To save some air time, please note that for long periods of time both the Nephites and Lamanites were in a state of apostacy. The "real Christians" were often in the minority.

Ok, let's see what you got.

[Tchild2]

Lets see here:

Proof of BoM via the actual golden plates = bad / not allowed by God.

Proof of BoM via the archealogical finds of the BoM = good / allowed by God.

You know, God might save a few million man-hours of wasted study to prove the BoM true, that might be better spent serving mankind if he just un-disappeared the plates.

[cdowis]

Lets see here:

Proof of BoM via the actual golden plates = bad / not allowed by God.

Proof of BoM via the archealogical finds of the BoM = good / allowed by God.

You know, God might save a few million man-hours of wasted study to prove the BoM true, that might be better spent serving mankind if he just un-disappeared the plates.

Proof of BOM via study and prayer == good/ the only certain proof sanctioned by God.

The resurrected Christ did not appear to Caesar, Pilot, or the screaming mob, but only to His disciples.

That's how He does things.

[Bill Hamblin]

Some of the ideas found here might be helpful

http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Stee..._of_Mormon.html

[Zakuska]

Thank you, Tramper, for posting this interesting discovery.

Are there any links that lead to these "scientific websites"? I tried going through the link to the Nephiproject, but couldn't find anything there about it.

Also, Peru seems to be quite a bit south of the neo-orthodox LDS view for Bountiful, ala Sorenson, et al.

How was it Nasca, Peru, became identified with Bountiful?

Was this the place with the giant "alien air strips" and other carvings in the rock visible from the air that Van Danniken got so much mileage out of?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Why yes consig...

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/x/2008a/080129VaughnMine.html

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Science/2008/...d_in_peru/6346/

http://www.ame.com.au/Countries%5CFe/Peru.htm

I posted these a few days ago and John W informed us that all they were using it for was their Local interior decorating projects.

I want to know where 3710 Metrics tons of Iron ore went over the past 2000 years!

[facie ad faciem]

Some of the ideas found here might be helpful

http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Stee..._of_Mormon.html

I was going to mention some more evidence for the linguistic side of the argument, but this article linked by Bill Hamblin puts it a bit more comprehensively and succinctly than I could. And it has better citations.

In my mind, it's a matter of sociolinguisitcs, namely how culture and language influence and shape one another. For instance, why does the KJV translate our "word of the day" as steel; the French Louis Segond Bible, brass; and modern scholars, bronze? We have some glimpse into the BoM worldview when they list off the precious metals of the time--gold, silver, brass, iron, etc. But what is ziff? Why could Joseph Smith translate the other words, but not that one? And why is there mention of iron, copper, and steel, but bronze is nowhere to be found?

[Scottie]

Could you be specific. What specific evidence which has been "found" which contradicts the BOM text. We are, of course, ignoring the "not found, not exist" fallacy, I presume.

With all due respect, I think you are full of baloney, but let's see. Normally you have solid, thoughtful posts, but I think you went over the cliff on this one.

To save some air time, please note that for long periods of time both the Nephites and Lamanites were in a state of apostacy. The "real Christians" were often in the minority.

Ok, let's see what you got.

Well, the biggest one is horses.

Most apologists love to cite that "just because we haven't found horse bones yet, doesn't mean they don't exist". Except that bones are only one of many ways of determining if horses existed.

I'm sure you've heard the arguments before, and I'm not qualified enough to get into much detail, but the mesoamerican art is FULL of animals, yet not a single horse. There would also be significant cultural and agricultural differences if horses had existed. Plus the absolute slaughter by the conquistadors because of the advantage that the horse gave them. Of course, more advanced armor and weapons helped with this as well.

There is also the subject of coins. Archaeologists have pretty good understanding of the trade system, and coins were not part of it.

There are more, but I can't think of them right now, and I'm too lazy to look them up.

I would refer you to Beastie's mesoamerican web site as she is the expert, but links to "anti" sites are not allowed. I'm sure you can find it.

[MormonMason]

The Amplified Bible: 2 Sam. 22: 35 ..........bow of bronze.

New International Version: 2 Sam. 22: 35 .....bow of bronze.

and so forth and so on.

Edited to add NEW KINGS JAMES VERSION: 2 Sam. 22: 35.....bend a bow of bronze.

So what does the Joseph Smith Revised KJ version say?

The same thing as the KJV, which is nearly the same as the following from the Revised Webster Bible (1995):

He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by my arms.

(2 Samuel 22:35, RWB; bold emphasis mine)

[Tchild2]

Proof of BOM via study and prayer == good/ the only certain proof sanctioned by God.

The resurrected Christ did not appear to Caesar, Pilot, or the screaming mob, but only to His disciples.

That's how He does things.

The Resurrected Christ has visited a lot of people and many of them were non-Mormons and non-christians. So, how is that, "how he does things"...exactly, seeing that Christ does visit others besides his disciples?

[Pentecostal Mormon]

All we really need now is for Moroni to give President Monson the Prophet the GOLDEN PLATES and then they will all know.

Yes, I guess that was a little sarcastic. But I have been reading, listening, talking, and a part of this type of discussion for so many years. I have old Book of Mormon study books and old research books and they all say the same things.

The fact is, if God wanted there to be TANGIBLE PROOF of the BOOK OF MORMON He could have provided it. I think the research needs to end and the "Sacred Tithing Funds" can go to more efforts bringing sould unto Christ.

When the Dead Sea Scrolls were found did the Hindus and Muslims start becoming Christian? No. The power is in the WORD not in seeing the plates or any other evidence. I mean, there were 12 + witnesses of the RESSURECTED CHRIST and they were sent to preach the message of the CROSS and RESURECTION.

"My sheep hear My voice." Christ could have showed himself to all at that moment, but He didn't.

Christianisty is based on FAITH, not by sight!

When our church can finally move past the "I know this church is true" mentality we will start baptizing and bringing in some serious numbers. We act like we have to convince ourselves that the Church is true. What other denomination says that? How about a testimony of CHRIST?

My point? repeated: The power is in the WORD not in seeing the plates or any other evidence.

[Joseph Antley]

When the Dead Sea Scrolls were found did the Hindus and Muslims start becoming Christian? No. The power is in the WORD not in seeing the plates or any other evidence.

The Dead Sea Scrolls don't really have anything to do with Christianity.

[Zakuska]

The 1828 Websters Dictionary sheeds quite a bit of Light:

steel

STEEL, n. [G.]

1. Iron combined with a small portion of carbon; iron refined and hardened, used in making instruments, and particularly useful as the material of edged tools. It is called in chemistry, carburet of iron; but this is more usually the denomination of plumbago.

2. Figuratively, weapons; particularly, offensive weapons, swords, spears and the like.

Brave Macbeth with his brandishd steel.

-- While doubting thus he stood, receivd the steel bathd in this brothers blood.

3. Medicines composed of steel, as steel fillings.

After relaxing, steel strengthens the solids.

4. Extreme hardness; as heads or hearts of steel.

STEEL, a. Made of steel; as a steel plate or buckle.

STEEL, v.t.

1. To overlay, point or edge with steel; as, to steel the point of a sword; to steel a razor; to steel an ax.

2. To make hard or extremely hard.

O God of battles, steel my soldiers hearts.

Lies well steeld with weighty arguments.

3. To make hard; to make insensible or obdurate; as, to steel the heart against pity; to steel the mind or heart against reproof or admonition.

What exactly was the process by which things where fashioned of Iron in the BOM?

1 Ne. 17: 9, 16

9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?

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16 And it came to pass that I did make tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock.

Ether 3: 1, 3

1 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared, (now the number of the vessels which had been prepared was eight) went forth unto the mount, which they called the mount Shelem, because of its exceeding height, and did molten out of a rock sixteen small stones; and they were white and clear, even as transparent glass; and he did carry them in his hands upon the top of the mount, and cried again unto the Lord, saying:

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3 Behold, O Lord, thou hast smitten us because of our iniquity, and hast driven us forth, and for these many years we have been in the wilderness; nevertheless, thou hast been merciful unto us. O Lord, look upon me in pity, and turn away thine anger from this thy people, and suffer not that they shall go forth across this raging deep in darkness; but behold these things which I have molten out of the rock.

Ether 7: 9

9 Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of steel for those whom he had drawn away with him; and after he had armed them with swords he returned to the city Nehor, and gave battle unto his brother Corihor, by which means he obtained the kingdom and restored it unto his father Kib.

They were... Molten.

molten

MOLTEN, pp. of melt. Melted.

1. a. Made of melted metal; as a molten image.

If Im not mistaken... Images where "Molten" in the Bible as well. Does that mean all those references are anachronistic as well? Where they Forging things?

forge

FORGE, n. [L. ferrum, iron.]

1. A furnace in which iron or other metal is heated and hammered into form. A larger forge is called with us iron-works. Smaller forges consisting of a bellows so placed as to cast a stream of air upon ignited coals, are of various forms and users. Armies have travelling forges, for repairing gun-carriages, &c.

2. Any place where any thing is made or shaped.

3. The act of beating or working iron or steel; the manufacture of metalline bodies.

In the greater bodies the forge was easy.

FORGE, v.t.

1. To form by heating and hammering; to beat into any particular shape, as a metal.

2. To make by any means.

Names that the schools forged, and put into the mouths of scholars.

3. To make falsely; to falsify; to counterfeit; to make in the likeness of something else; as, to forge coin; to forge a bill of exchange or a receipt.

Forge seems like a better process of building weapons from Metal. Something we know they did with Copper, for thousands of years before Christ.

[Connolly]

Get back to us when they find a iron smelter where the making of STEEL swords could have been made.

Steel as you know it didn't exist when Joseph Smith translated the BoM. Kinda beggs the question, what was steel?

[consiglieri]

Well, the biggest one is horses.

There is also the subject of coins. Archaeologists have pretty good understanding of the trade system, and coins were not part of it.

Horses are an issue, I agree.

But coins are not.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

The Dead Sea Scrolls don't really have anything to do with Christianity.

Unless you buy into the fringe theory that the Teacher of Righteousness was James the Just (or his successor), and the anti-Christ was Paul.

Which I don't.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[John Williams]

Steel as you know it didn't exist when Joseph Smith translated the BoM. Kinda beggs the question, what was steel?

That's not entirely true. Steel was indeed known in Joseph Smith's time, but it wasn't until the 1850s that the Bessemer Process made it easy to mass-produce steel. Thus, in Joseph Smith's day, steel was a difficult thing to make, so the description of Laban's sword as "precious steel" would make perfect sense in Joseph Smith's day.

[Zakuska]

So I guess they have been mining Ochre body paint for 42,000 Years around the world.

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/archae...ining_2007.html

Maybe thats what changed their skin colors?

From the first Article:

"What we found is the only hematite mine, a type of iron also known as ochre, recorded in South America prior to the Spanish conquest. This discovery demonstrates that iron ores were important to ancient Andean civilizations."

What exactly is Hematite?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematite

Its not just the red stuff used to make body paint!

[Pentecostal Mormon]

The Dead Sea Scrolls don't really have anything to do with Christianity.

Ok. Then you can say that iron ore and horse bones have nothing to do with the Book of Mormon. They are related and linked arean't they? They add weight to the argument.

The Deas Sea Scrolls confirm many claims of Christ and show Christianity to be rooted in Judaism and have been called the evolutionary link between the Old and New Testaments.

For those who do not believe in Judeo Christianity, the Dead Sea Scrolls provides a link, like finding Iron Ore or Horse Bones would for those who do not believe in the Book of Mormon.

[cdowis]

Well, the biggest one is horses.

OK, specifically what did researchers ***find** that contradicts the BOM text?

Most apologists love to cite that "just because we haven't found horse bones yet, doesn't mean they don't exist". Except that bones are only one of many ways of determining if horses existed.

I'm sure you've heard the arguments before, and I'm not qualified enough to get into much detail, but the mesoamerican art is FULL of animals, yet not a single horse.

Please give us the dates of this mesoamerican art. How many images of animals date prior to 150AD (around the time horses are mentioned in the BOM).

There would also be significant cultural and agricultural differences if horses had existed. Plus the absolute slaughter by the conquistadors because of the advantage that the horse gave them. Of course, more advanced armor and weapons helped with this as well.

Your post specifically mentions what was ******FOUND**** contradicts the BOM text. Instead, you list your ==assumptions== on what should be found, ignoring many previous posts that horses probably played a very small part in Nephite culture.

The bottom line is that the BOM contradicts what you think, not what was found.

There is also the subject of coins. Archaeologists have pretty good understanding of the trade system, and coins were not part of it.

Please give the chapter and verse reference to coins. It is mentioned in a chapter heading, which was clearly incorrect if you read the actual text.

There are more, but I can't think of them right now, and I'm too lazy to look them up.

I would refer you to Beastie's mesoamerican web site as she is the expert, but links to "anti" sites are not allowed.

Is this the best you can do? I am very disappointed.

[Scottie]

OK, specifically what did researchers ***find** that contradicts the BOM text?

Well, they ***FOUND*** artwork that did not have any horses.

Please give us the dates of this mesoamerican art. How many images of animals date prior to 150AD (around the time horses are mentioned in the BOM).

What exactly are you looking for here? You want me to list every piece of artwork ever found and date it?

Yes, artwork has been **found** dated to BoM times. No horses are found in that artwork. Nor any other artwork.

Settlements have been **found** that show a distinct lack of beasts of burden.

Your post specifically mentions what was ******FOUND**** contradicts the BOM text. Instead, you list your ==assumptions== on what should be found, ignoring many previous posts that horses probably played a very small part in Nephite culture.

Yes, I've seen those posts and find them utterly unconvincing.

The bottom line is that the BOM contradicts what you think, not what was found.

What I think? You might want to lump the hundreds of expert non-Mormon archaeologists in with what I think...

Please give the chapter and verse reference to coins. It is mentioned in a chapter heading, which was clearly incorrect if you read the actual text.

Yeah, because we always talk about weights and measures by using the term "pieces", huh?

Is this the best you can do? I am very disappointed.

My feelings exactly...

[MormonMason]

...

Yeah, because we always talk about weights and measures by using the term "pieces", huh?

...

We may not but the ancients did. Consider the following:

18

[SeattleGrunge]

We may not but the ancients did.

touche

[Sanpitch]

The more I read about "steel" in the BofM or the bible the more confusider I get. Apparently "steel" can mean a lot of things with no clear definition but with lots of evidence to back up everyone's opinions. So I suppose the argument can go on forever with no real conclusion.

[Scottie]

The more I read about "steel" in the BofM or the bible the more confusider I get. Apparently "steel" can mean a lot of things with no clear definition but with lots of evidence to back up everyone's opinions. So I suppose the argument can go on forever with no real conclusion.

You're right in that you can never get anywhere with apologists. This brings up tight vs loose translation methods. Apologists seem to be able to justify either one depending on the subject being discussed.

Chaismus is considered a strong evidence for the BoM, however, it requires a tight translation.

Now, apparently, steel really meant some other alloy, but since JS just saw the image of a shiny sword like object in his mind, he wrote "steel sword".

[ucfpianogirl]

Argue about horses? Obviously, I must have missed that interesting tidbit;) Anyone....wanna clue me in??? C'mon I need a good laugh today

This brings up an interesting subject...In your opinion, what would need to be found....to prove the Book of Mormon, do you think? Or....is it like proving the Bible? As far as I know, the only find that proves the Bible is true is the little find of pieces of Solomon's Temple? I don't know of anyone finding the Arc yet.