Masonic Rites = Temple Signs

[John Williams]

But you have yet to conclusively, or even remotely, demonstrate that your model of reality is what really took place -- and in the face of Joseph Smith denying your viewpoint, no less.

What's my model of reality? I'm glad someone knows cuz I'm sure in the dark.

Whether or not I have conclusively or even remotely proven my point, I fail to see how I've advanced any anti-Mormon charge, much less one that is disgusting or ridiculous. I don't see any reason to accept a hyperliteral word-for-word restoration of an ancient ceremony, but that doesn't mean I hate Joseph Smith. Sheesh.

[Helorum]

That's a rather insulting reference to Masons, don't you think?

You will have to take that up with brother Nibley -- and Deseret Book/FARMS who recently reprinted it.

And if you didn't like that Nibley quote you probably won't appreciate this one either . . . which was published in the Church's official magazine (with worldwide circulation) earlier this year:

Hugh Nibley - “Did Joseph Smith reinvent the temple by putting all the fragments—Jewish, Orthodox, Masonic, Gnostic, Hindu, Egyptian, and so forth—together again? No, that is not how it is done.” (Ensign, February 2007, 12-17).

[John Williams]

You will have to take that up with brother Nibley -- and Deseret Book/FARMS who recently reprinted it.

And if you didn't like that Nibley quote you probably won't appreciate this one either . . . which was published in the Church's official magazine (with worldwide circulation) earlier this year:

Hugh Nibley - “Did Joseph Smith reinvent the temple by putting all the fragments—Jewish, Orthodox, Masonic, Gnostic, Hindu, Egyptian, and so forth—together again? No, that is not how it is done.” (Ensign, February 2007, 12-17).

Why would I dislike that one? It's not insulting.

[Jan]

As I have mentioned before, I usually participate in an spanish speaking message board. Unfortunately for the spanish speaking or any other people who don't speak English ... we don't have the apologetic information that becomes a great tool to set the record straight in many doctrinal issues in our own language and it has become an incovenience when a lot of anti-mormon propaganda has come in our way.

NG - FAIR has a Spanish wiki. We need translators to help. Are you willing?

http://es.fairmormon.org/index.php/Portada

[kamenraider]

The first masonic ceremonies consisted of one very simple rite, that of initiation, and it was not until the second decade of the Eighteenth Century that what, in a modern sense, are called degrees were known. Fellowcraft and Master were simply honorary distinctions which existed for quite a period in the early years of the fraternity, and were in no sense degrees but distinguishing titles which were accorded to certain members of the craft and when conferred involved no additional secrets, no ceremonials, and no retirement from the lodge of even the youngest entered apprentice.

--Delmar D. Darrah, The Evolution of Freemasonry, The Masonic Publishing Co. 1920, pgs. 35-36.

[Tsuzuki]

Hugh Nibley - â??Did Joseph Smith reinvent the temple by putting all the fragmentsâ??Jewish, Orthodox, Masonic, Gnostic, Hindu, Egyptian, and so forthâ??together again? No, that is not how it is done.â? (Ensign, February 2007, 12-17).

Actually, that is how it's done.

7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.

8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.

- D&C 9:7-9

[negragardenia]

Tambien hablo espanol y un poquito de Tzeltal Maya. Donde esta su amiga para que podia explicarle las cosas que creemos?

(I too speak Spanish and a little Tzeltal Maya. Where is your friend that I may explain to her the things that we believe. Where is the forum?

Que bien!! Pues la persona de quien estoy hablando esta en un foro... ella dice que fue miembro de la Iglesia inclusive ultimamente puso un post donde dice que ella personalmente estuvo con el Pte. Hunter en el templo en Orlando, Florida... su nick es Luzhoy y puedes encontrarla en Univision.com en "Mormones".

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Que bien!! Pues la persona de quien estoy hablando esta en un foro... ella dice que fue miembro de la Iglesia inclusive ultimamente puso un post donde dice que ella personalmente estuvo con el Pte. Hunter en el templo en Orlando, Florida... su nick es Luzhoy y puedes encontrarla en Univision.com en "Mormones".

My universal translator is broken. Can you help a brotha out.

[negragardenia]

NG - FAIR has a Spanish wiki. We need translators to help. Are you willing?

http://es.fairmormon.org/index.php/Portada

Jan,

I'm going to start sending all my translations. Hopefully they will be useful.

[negragardenia]

My universal translator is broken. Can you help a brotha out.

Sorry!

Translation: That's great! The person that I'm talking about is in this forum.. she says she was a member of the Church... inclusively, recently she posted that she met personally with President Hunter in the Orlando, Florida Temple. Her nick is Luzhoy and you can find her at Univision.com "Mormones"

[ghedmondson]

Sorry!

Translation: That's great! The person that I'm talking about is in this forum.. she says she was a member of the Church... inclusively, recently she posted that she met personally with President Hunter in the Orlando, Florida Temple. Her nick is Luzhoy and you can find her at Univision.com "Mormones"

para que sepas soy Garrett27 alla en el foro

Grace and Peace

Bro. Edmondson

[Maidservant]

I know zero about Masonry and so I can speak of nothing to that; although it wouldn't bother me if "borrowing" is the explanation, I am also not bothered at alll by the fact that, gee, God really could have simply, and I mean simply, revealed lots of good stuff to Joseph. Supernatural explanations never bother me.

In any case, I have always felt or assumed that the endowment including the symbolic presentation was pre-Hebraic; and anything the Hebrews had about it was a heritage previous to Abraham. Which, in accepting the Book of Abraham as is, that is simple enough to believe. Other than BofA, I don't know why I think that; I can't produce documenation for my own assumption at this point. Of course, I can't say that Masonry, even though it arose in Medieval times doesn't also hark back to earlier of the mists of time; I simply can't speak to that. I have always felt that we are partaking of a religion that, say, was vital during Tower of Babel/ Jaredite times: a restoration as necessary and wonderful as any other restoration we have. As we know, the brother of Jared entered God's presence. In fact there are a lot of things hidden in that story that I'm not sure I've cracked. It has to be one of my favorite scripture passages, period.

In any case, one (Old Testament) temple reference that even LDS may not catch and that may be worth further personal study is every time the words "call upon the Lord" is said. Well, maybe not every time. But check those out and see what else that phrase is in connection with within a given passage. BTW, this really isn't an answer to the OP, it is just that reading through this thread has given me lots of thoughts.

While maintaining that the temple's heritage is mainly non-Hebraic, nevertheless our temples are also descendants of Hebraic temples. Perhaps others already realize this, but I did see one comment in that linked Millenial Star article; someone said our temples do not have a Court of Gentiles. Yes, yes they do. Very obviously they do. The temple grounds are very beautifully maintained, sacred, part of the temple and the temple experience -- and no recommend required. Once you have entered the grounds of the temple, you are at the temple. I take my children to the grounds of the temple all the time for the to have a temple experience. The temple grounds are the Court of the Gentiles. It is meaningless to call it that in today's culture and language, but the purpose is the same.

[The_Monk]

BTW, though I don't address this topic directly, several of my temple essays on my webpage do comment on this topic for those with ears to hear.

All the essays are available off the main page by clicking on "Temple Preparation FAQ" on the left, and then picking a topic off the right.

Try this one, for example, what is a covenant?

The page has not been updated recently (partly my fault partly not), but will be updated in the future. I have an essay almost finished about what creation is doing in the temple, for example, and some other updates and additions.