Masonic Rites = Temple Signs

[negragardenia]

As I have mentioned before, I usually participate in an spanish speaking message board. Unfortunately for the spanish speaking or any other people who don't speak English ... we don't have the apologetic information that becomes a great tool to set the record straight in many doctrinal issues in our own language and it has become an incovenience when a lot of anti-mormon propaganda has come in our way.

There's a certain individual claiming to be an ex-mormon. She is an individual who has brought to our attention many doctrinal issues. In this certain case... she has posted some pictures showing temple signs and comparing them to masonic signs. I don't know if I should post them here or not. But I need help with this kind of information.

I would like to ignore every comment or the so-called information she brings forth but, there are many new converts that come in to the message board and they usually ask what is going on?

[Sargon]

Maybe you could tell us what the message board is called so some of our spanish speaking members here could help you out. I would love to know if there is a portuguese message board for this kind of thing.

Sargon

[John Williams]

As I have mentioned before, I usually participate in an spanish speaking message board. Unfortunately for the spanish speaking or any other people who don't speak English ... we don't have the apologetic information that becomes a great tool to set the record straight in many doctrinal issues in our own language and it has become an incovenience when a lot of anti-mormon propaganda has come in our way.

There's a certain individual claiming to be an ex-mormon. She is an individual who has brought to our attention many doctrinal issues. In this certain case... she has posted some pictures showing temple signs and comparing them to masonic signs. I don't know if I should post them here or not. But I need help with this kind of information.

I would like to ignore every comment or the so-called information she brings forth but, there are many new converts that come in to the message board and they usually ask what is going on?

Without going into specifics, why not just acknowledge that there is an obvious connection between the Masonic rituals and the temple ceremonies? I would assume that most people here, regardless of their position towards the church, would agree that they are connected.

I always looked at it this way: Joseph Smith said that he took truth wherever he found it. If he found it in Masonic ritual, why wouldn't he have used it?

[Hammer]

As I have mentioned before, I usually participate in an spanish speaking message board. Unfortunately for the spanish speaking or any other people who don't speak English ... we don't have the apologetic information that becomes a great tool to set the record straight in many doctrinal issues in our own language and it has become an incovenience when a lot of anti-mormon propaganda has come in our way.

There's a certain individual claiming to be an ex-mormon. She is an individual who has brought to our attention many doctrinal issues. In this certain case... she has posted some pictures showing temple signs and comparing them to masonic signs. I don't know if I should post them here or not. But I need help with this kind of information.

I would like to ignore every comment or the so-called information she brings forth but, there are many new converts that come in to the message board and they usually ask what is going on?

Can't you translate what is found on the fair board into Spanish? or find someone who could?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Without going into specifics, why not just acknowledge that there is an obvious connection between the Masonic rituals and the temple ceremonies? I would assume that most people here, regardless of their position towards the church, would agree that they are connected.

I always looked at it this way: Joseph Smith said that he took truth wherever he found it. If he found it in Masonic ritual, why wouldn't he have used it?

I concour there are similarites, however the critics like to take this as the LDS or JS stole them. From my understanding ( witch is limited) most masons dont even know what the sings represent. Also with out getting into to much detail there is a great deal of the LDS cerimony that is very much unique and diffrent.

Can't you translate what is found on the fair board into Spanish? or find someone who could?

Doesnt Word have a translater on it. I know there are programmes that allow this. Ill have to goole it and see.

Just a thought here. http://www.freetranslation.com/

[Hammer]

I concour there are similarites, however the critics like to take this as the LDS or JS stole them. From my understanding ( witch is limited) most masons dont even know what the sings represent. Also with out getting into to much detail there is a great deal of the LDS cerimony that is very much unique and diffrent.

Doesnt Word have a translater on it. I know there are programmes that allow this. Ill have to goole it and see.

I don't know about word, but dictionary.com has a translator.

[Drewm777]

Doesnt Word have a translater on it. I know there are programmes that allow this. Ill have to goole it and see.

Just a thought here. http://www.freetranslation.com/

Maybe so, but these translators are USELESS. Don't even try. Trust me. I'm working on my MA right now in Spanish. Electronic translators are useless.

[John Williams]

I concour there are similarites, however the critics like to take this as the LDS or JS stole them. From my understanding ( witch is limited) most masons dont even know what the sings represent. Also with out getting into to much detail there is a great deal of the LDS cerimony that is very much unique and diffrent.

Some of the similarities are exactly the same. I believe Joseph took the Masonic rites and adapted them to an LDS purpose. I do not believe they are a restoration of ancient rites. But I don't necessarily see that as "stealing."

[Hammer]

Some of the similarities are exactly the same. I believe Joseph took the Masonic rites and adapted them to an LDS purpose. I do not believe they are a restoration of ancient rites. But I don't necessarily see that as "stealing."

You are free to believe of course, anything, but they are a restoration and they have power beyond most's comprehension. I know!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Maybe so, but these translators are USELESS. Don't even try. Trust me. I'm working on my MA right now in Spanish. Electronic translators are useless.

Very well. It was just an idea. I figured they probably werent very accurate.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Some of the similarities are exactly the same. I believe Joseph took the Masonic rites and adapted them to an LDS purpose. I do not believe they are a restoration of ancient rites. But I don't necessarily see that as "stealing."

WEll there could be some truth to what you state. I believe they are of God, that however would be impossible for me to prove to you, nor would I want to.

[Hammer]

WEll there could be some truth to what you state. I believe they are of God, that however would be impossible for me to prove to you, nor would I want to.

It is to be proven through God. And God WILL prove it beyond anything anyone could possibly imagine.

[John Williams]

WEll there could be some truth to what you state. I believe they are of God, that however would be impossible for me to prove to you, nor would I want to.

I am not saying that they aren't from God. I'm saying that they aren't ancient. Those two propositions are not mutually exclusive, are they?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I am not saying that they aren't from God. I'm saying that they aren't ancient. Those two propositions are not mutually exclusive, are they?

no. Simple enough. I have wonder if these same rights were taught exactley as we have them today. I really doubt they were. I think some of these have ancient value though. What do I mean by ancient value. Hmmm let me think on that.

Perhaps I think the principles and covenants were taught. However it would seem quit impossible to prove one way or another.

[Aquilifer]

no. Simple enough. I have wonder if these same rights were taught exactley as we have them today. I really doubt they were. I think some of these have ancient value though. What do I mean by ancient value. Hmmm let me think on that.

Perhaps I think the principle of the rights were taught.

I think that the principles taught through symbolism are ancient, but I'm somewhat on John W's side of the fence in that I favor the view that JS incorporated symbolism from his environment into the temple. While I'm not sure that the symbols themselves are inherently sacred or that they required restoration, what the symbols represent is sacred. For me, it's a minor distinction though, and I am open to counter arguements.

[HiJolly]

As I have mentioned before, I usually participate in an spanish speaking message board. Unfortunately for the spanish speaking or any other people who don't speak English ... we don't have the apologetic information that becomes a great tool to set the record straight in many doctrinal issues in our own language and it has become an incovenience when a lot of anti-mormon propaganda has come in our way.

There's a certain individual claiming to be an ex-mormon. She is an individual who has brought to our attention many doctrinal issues. In this certain case... she has posted some pictures showing temple signs and comparing them to masonic signs. I don't know if I should post them here or not. But I need help with this kind of information.

I would like to ignore every comment or the so-called information she brings forth but, there are many new converts that come in to the message board and they usually ask what is going on?

Joseph Smith knew a lot about the Freemasonry movement and tradition. His family had been involved in it for generations. My personal view is that when Joseph was raised as a master Mason, he was inspired to see what it could be, in the fullness of the spirit.

So, he created the LDS temple endowment using the Freemason's temple teaching as a basic framework. He modified it to meet the Father's needs, changing the proponent from Hiram to Adam & Eve, and modifying the whole framework to allow the inclusion of the sisters of the Church. Absolutely fantastic.

I also think this is really what motivated the local (non-LDS) Freemasons (among others) to murder him at Carthage. His distress call was to condemn those that condemned him. I can hardly wait for (former LDS) Brother Nick Laterski's book to come out. The title will be (I think) Method Infinite: Freemasonry and the Mormon Restoration.

HiJolly

[The_Monk]

no. Simple enough. I have wonder if these same rights were taught exactley as we have them today.

On this question, see this insightful blog post.

Negragardenia: You should consult the FAIRWIKI.

http://fairwiki.org/index.php/Temple_endow...and_Freemasonry

They are not all the same, they don't mean the same things, and the differences are significant. "Borrowing" doesn't necessarily invalidate revelation.

The Israelite tabernacle and Jerusalem temple both came explicitly by revelation, but they also borrow heavily in some ways from their cultures.

"It is generally concluded [because of these similarities] that Solomon’s temple was designed by Phoenician craftsmen in accord with Syro-Palestinian models, presumably adapted to fit the Israelite milieu." -Keith W. Whitelam, "Hiram," in The Anchor Bible Dictionary, ed. David Noel Freedman (New York: Doubleday, 1992), 3:204.

"Since its construction followed Phoenician models, much of its symbolism inevitably reflected a pagan background." John Bright, A History of Israel, 4th ed. (Louisville, Ky: Westminster John Knox Press, 2000), 218.

Setting aside the question of ancientness of LDS temple symbolism, if the Israelites are permitted to borrow and adapt non-Israelite symbolism into their temple, why can't Joseph Smith do it for ours?

[John Williams]

Setting aside the question of ancientness of LDS temple symbolism, if the Israelites are permitted to borrow and adapt non-Israelite symbolism into their temple, why can't Joseph Smith do it for ours?

That is my position, though I do not believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet. If he were a prophet, though, I don't see why he couldn't borrow and adapt.

[negragardenia]

Can't you translate what is found on the fair board into Spanish? or find someone who could?

I have translated numerous articles which I have been able to get from FAIR and that some of you have provided me with the information as well. I translate as the questions pop up... surprising questions I should say. Unfortunately ... time ... is a factor for me and that's why I ask of your input. I am really greatful for this message board. I learn a lot.

[negragardenia]

Doesnt Word have a translater on it. I know there are programmes that allow this. Ill have to goole it and see.

Just a thought here. http://www.freetranslation.com/

Thanks for the link. I'll se if this one works....

The Word translator doesn't help much.

[negragardenia]

On this question, see this insightful blog post.

Negragardenia: You should consult the FAIRWIKI.

http://fairwiki.org/index.php/Temple_endow...and_Freemasonry

They are not all the same, they don't mean the same things, and the differences are significant. "Borrowing" doesn't necessarily invalidate revelation.

The Israelite tabernacle and Jerusalem temple both came explicitly by revelation, but they also borrow heavily in some ways from their cultures.

"It is generally concluded [because of these similarities] that Solomonâ??s temple was designed by Phoenician craftsmen in accord with Syro-Palestinian models, presumably adapted to fit the Israelite milieu." -Keith W. Whitelam, "Hiram," in The Anchor Bible Dictionary, ed. David Noel Freedman (New York: Doubleday, 1992), 3:204.

"Since its construction followed Phoenician models, much of its symbolism inevitably reflected a pagan background." John Bright, A History of Israel, 4th ed. (Louisville, Ky: Westminster John Knox Press, 2000), 218.

Setting aside the question of ancientness of LDS temple symbolism, if the Israelites are permitted to borrow and adapt non-Israelite symbolism into their temple, why can't Joseph Smith do it for ours?

Monk,

Thank You!!

[Mighty Curelom]

Could you provide a link to this board?

On second thought, the moderators might not like that.

Could you post the name of the board?

[negragardenia]

I really appreciate all of your discussion and answers to my question.

Hopefully all this kind of information would be in our own language. It is amazing how the anti-mormon propaganda has already been translated in multiple languages but, especially in Spanish. What do they gain out of this? I don't know. I don't understand their brotherly love. I don't understand how they accused us of being sons and daughters of Satan and yet they say that they want us to join them.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I really appreciate all of your discussion and answers to my question.

Hopefully all this kind of information would be in our own language. It is amazing how the anti-mormon propaganda has already been translated in multiple languages but, especially in Spanish. What do they gain out of this? I don't know. I don't understand their brotherly love. I don't understand how they accused us of being sons and daughters of Satan and yet they say that they want us to join them.

Well, I can guess. Perhaps to some in the main stream churches its like a business. you go were the clients are. Since they believe we are the devels church and the LDS have much success in spanish speaking countries it only makes sence that you would see alot directed to those people.

[Helorum]

Negragardenia: â??I need help with this kind of informationâ?

The FAIR wiki article is a good place to start, but it does not necessarily give the best possible answer.

http://fairwiki.org/index.php/Temple_endow...and_Freemasonry

John W: â??why not just acknowledge that there is an obvious connection between the Masonic rituals and the temple ceremonies?â?

There is indeed a connection, but most anti-Mormons and LDS alike misunderstand the nature of that connection.

John W: â??I always looked at it this way: Joseph Smith said that he took truth wherever he found it. If he found it in Masonic ritual, why wouldn't he have used it?â?

For the simple fact that God Himself said He would PROVIDE Joseph Smith with every temple ordinance (see D&C 124).

Mola Ram Suda Ram: â??there is a great deal of the LDS cer[e]mony that is very much unique and diff[e]rentâ?

That is a fact.

John W: â??Some of the similarities are exactly the same.â?

Yes, but very few are EXACTLY the same (see Heber C. Kimballâ??s statement on this idea).

John W: â??I believe Joseph took the Masonic rites and adapted them to an LDS purpose.â?

Personal belief is very different from verifiable evidence. And Iâ??m quite sure that there is no first-hand statement from Joseph Smith in which he acknowledges that he â??took . . . and adapted [Masonic rites] to an LDS purpose.â? Please feel free to prove me wrong on this point.

John W: â??I do not believe [LDS temple ordinances] are a restoration of ancient rites.â?

Youâ??re dead wrong . . . and I CAN prove it.

John W: â??I am not saying that they aren't from God. I'm saying that they aren't ancient.â?

In D&C 124 God says that they are from Him AND He says they are ancient.

Aquilifer: â??I favor the view that JS incorporated symbolism from his environment into the temple.â?

Then why does God say right in D&C 124 that He is going to supply those very things FOR Joseph Smith?

HiJolly: â??Joseph Smith knew a lot about the Freemasonry movement and tradition. His family had been involved in it for generations.â?

CFR

HiJolly: â??[Joseph Smith] created the LDS temple endowment using the Freemason's temple teaching as a basic framework. He modified it to meet the Father's needsâ?

You state this as if it were a FACT. Please provide specific evidence to support your THEORY. Are you seriously claiming that Joseph Smith modified Masonic rites in order to â??meet [God] the Fatherâ??s needsâ???? Since Godâ??s temple rites are designed to exalt individuals in His kingdom please explain how Joseph Smithâ??s alleged use of a non-divine system of recognizing a qualified stonecutter helped God to bestow exaltation on anyone. And please provide reliable documentation to support your claim.

The Monk: â??The Israelite tabernacle and Jerusalem temple both came explicitly by revelation, but they also borrow heavily in some ways from their cultures.â? (emphasis added)

Architectural motifs are NOT in the same category as the revealed rituals practiced within the walls of the building.