Heaven, An Exclusive Country Club For Mormons?

[battlefieldboy]

As I have considered the 3 degrees of glory as defined by the LDS church, I realize that if they are correct I would probably want to be in the Kingdom of the partiers. It would seem like a more comfortable place for me to be. If living the gospel as faithfully as members are expected is preparation for the highest kingdom then it wouldn't seem to be as much fun to be placed there.

As my wife always tells me...."you had better get your act together or you won't be in the Celestial Kingdom with me" to which I reply "It is my understanding that you will be able to travel "down" to the other kingdoms so you can come visit me and I'll provide the beer. That is usually when she slaps me.

I figure that my immediate family members live their lives pretty much like I do, so who am I to break up our family is forever by being assigned to a higher kingdom.

BTW for the humor impaired this was pretty much a joke, although if the LDS church is true I pretty much see myself going to one of the lesser kingdoms and I am cool with that.

[Lightbearer]

To me? Nothing at all.

I just find it a bit silly that you are so ready to take offense at the rather innocuous post of a fellow believer.

You appear to be the thin-skinned one, frankly. "Insulting" to real believers. Potentially offensive to the Spirit.

Okay.

Or, just a sincere question.

By all means, devour your own.

CKS

Actually he came across as a "sock puppet" anti, what was innocuous about his post?

So what do you think, is heaven truly an exclusive Mormon country club, or is there much more to the picture than we realize such as to what John in Revelations was getting at?

Sounds like someone attacking the revelations of God or at least making light of them. So I do not think my reply was offensive at all. I do tend to get "thin skinned" when it comes to what I preceive is someone attacking the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ. I guess that is just one of my weaknesses.

[Rob Osborn]

Personally I believe that Joseph did see the vision as found in section 76 and soon after he wrote it down. Because things are revealed line upon line, what he saw was completely new to him. I find it very interesting that later on when he recieved the temple endowment ceremony that in it he recieved the further line upon line in regards to the meanings of the kingdoms of glory. Maybe Joseph saw heaven as three different spheres - the Celestial world, the Terrestrial world and the Telestial world early on perhaps because of the vision of 76. Later on though the Lord points out that the Three worlds of glory is only the single earth in it's graded progression. Notice how in section 76 that it only speaks of two resurrections- the first and the last, or the resurrection of the just and the unjust. Note now that there is only two designated resurrections in the section- namely, the Celestial people and those who have to wait until the end who are the sons of perdition.

When Christ speaks in the scriptures his words are true. Look at section 29-

26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, aMichael, mine archangel, shall sound his btrump, and then shall all the dead cawake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall dcome forthâ??yea, even all.

27 And the arighteous shall be gathered on my bright hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;

28 Wherefore I will say unto themâ??aDepart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting bfire, prepared for the cdevil and his angels.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 29:26 - 28)

Here Christ the Lord is speaking, note how he says "verily I say unto you". He goes on to make the absolute statement that the righteous will be gathered on his right hand unto eternal life. This is the life only made available to those who get to partake of the tree of eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom. Everyone else- the wicked, will be found on the left hand of God to be cast out into outer darkness with the devil and his angels. Note here how when the Lord states that there are only two designations for people, that he is final in his words. Christ also makes it clear that this judgment happens after the millennium and not before.

Nowhere in section 76 does it state that Christ will save the wicked on his right hand. Neither does Christ state that he has any other than two hands where everyone will go. I have heard people debate though that Christ uses generalizations like in the above scripture from 29. I believe however that Christ is very exact and precise in stating where everyone of his children go- either to the Celestial kingdom of god or into outer darkness.

So, in interpreting the true doctrine of Christ am I not true in stating that we will either go back and live in Gods literal presence in the CK or be cast out into outer darkness with the devil and his angels? If section 29 of the D&C is true and needs no clarification (because the Lord himself is speaking and he is unchanging), then certainly section 76 needs further clarification as to its meaning because our current understanding of section 76 and what the Lord says in Revelations and section 29 do not jive. Any attempt to make them jive creates a paradox of monumental proportions.

[Lightbearer]

Personally I believe that Joseph did see the vision as found in section 76 and soon after he wrote it down. Because things are revealed line upon line, what he saw was completely new to him. I find it very interesting that later on when he recieved the temple endowment ceremony that in it he recieved the further line upon line in regards to the meanings of the kingdoms of glory. Maybe Joseph saw heaven as three different spheres - the Celestial world, the Terrestrial world and the Telestial world early on perhaps because of the vision of 76. Later on though the Lord points out that the Three worlds of glory is only the single earth in it's graded progression. Notice how in section 76 that it only speaks of two resurrections- the first and the last, or the resurrection of the just and the unjust. Note now that there is only two designated resurrections in the section- namely, the Celestial people and those who have to wait until the end who are the sons of perdition.

When Christ speaks in the scriptures his words are true. Look at section 29-

26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, aMichael, mine archangel, shall sound his btrump, and then shall all the dead cawake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall dcome forthâ??yea, even all.

27 And the arighteous shall be gathered on my bright hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;

28 Wherefore I will say unto themâ??aDepart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting bfire, prepared for the cdevil and his angels.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 29:26 - 28)

Here Christ the Lord is speaking, note how he says "verily I say unto you". He goes on to make the absolute statement that the righteous will be gathered on his right hand unto eternal life. This is the life only made available to those who get to partake of the tree of eternal life in the Celestial Kingdom. Everyone else- the wicked, will be found on the left hand of God to be cast out into outer darkness with the devil and his angels. Note here how when the Lord states that there are only two designations for people, that he is final in his words. Christ also makes it clear that this judgment happens after the millennium and not before.

Nowhere in section 76 does it state that Christ will save the wicked on his right hand. Neither does Christ state that he has any other than two hands where everyone will go. I have heard people debate though that Christ uses generalizations like in the above scripture from 29. I believe however that Christ is very exact and precise in stating where everyone of his children go- either to the Celestial kingdom of god or into outer darkness.

So, in interpreting the true doctrine of Christ am I not true in stating that we will either go back and live in Gods literal presence in the CK or be cast out into outer darkness with the devil and his angels? If section 29 of the D&C is true and needs no clarification (because the Lord himself is speaking and he is unchanging), then certainly section 76 needs further clarification as to its meaning because our current understanding of section 76 and what the Lord says in Revelations and section 29 do not jive. Any attempt to make them jive creates a paradox of monumental proportions.

You have no foundation for claiming that section 76 is refering to this earth in it's various stages of existance. In fact section 88 explains that very plainly. Also Jesus Christ was speaking in section 76 just as he was in section 29. There is no disagreement or confilict in the two sections if you read them in context, in section 29 the Lord is speaking of those who are "filthy still" or the sons of perdition:

(D&C 76:30-38) "And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us: Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and asuffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my powerâ??They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born; For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to comeâ??Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame. These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angelsâ??And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath."

Take this in conjunction with this revelation:

(D&C 88:28-39) "They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift. And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same. That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still. All kingdoms have a law given; And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified."

Thus even those who finally receive a telestial glory will after their suffering in hell, be sanctified by the atonement of Christ or they will not have a kingdom of glory but will be cast into outer darkness. If you read the entire 76 section you will understand it. The people that inherit the Telestial Kingdom are not sons of perdition so hell will end for them:

(D&C 76:81-89) "And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. These are they who are thrust down to hell. These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial; And the terrestrial through the aministration of the celestial.

And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation. And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;"

Note here that the ones who are Telestial are heirs of salvation, although they must suffer for their sins in hell until the last resurrection, it is only the sons of perdition that ultimately receive eternal damnation.

[Rob Osborn]

Section 88 of the D&C is really quite vague also as it never explains where or when the kingdoms of glory exist besides the Celestial in which it makes quite clear. It is logical to presume that because this earth is the Telestial Kingdom that everyone who is here abided by a law that enabled them to come here. According to divine law we are blessed here by Telestial law as we show obedience while in this kingdom. Those who abide not by the law of this kingdom are destroyed in the flesh and delivered over to Satan.

Also notice that in your quoted verse that it starts off by saying that - "They who are of a Celestial spirit...", This leads me to believe that what is being said here is that saints since Christs resurrection have been resurrected and will continue to be resurrected and quickened further according to the glory of the state of the earth at that time. For instance- Everyone who have already been resurrected have been resurrected with the Telestial glory because that is the current glory of the earth. When the earth dies and is quickened at the beginning of the millennium it will have the Terrestrial glory and all previous resurrected souls to that point will thus be quickened in their immortal bodies to that of a Terrestrial glory.

Note also that even Christ in his resurrected form will not be crowned with his Celestial glory until after the millennium according to section 76.

The whole suffering for their own sins bit about the future Telestial heirs in mormon doctrine is what I call an incorrect and dangerous doctrine. Here is why. There are only two resurrections- the Just and the Unjust. If one comes forth in the first or Just resurrection it means that when they do so they are justified in cleansing themselves in the blood of the lamb and pronounced spotless. The unjust or the second resurrection are for those who chose not to repent and are still in a state of unrepentance because they are not justified in cleansing themselves in the Lambs blood. These are the ones the Lord calls the "filthy still".

Do you not think it is just a strange mere coincidence that when speaking of the "last of all" individuals that make up the Telestial inhabitants that they are grouped with or as the sons of perdition? Many have said there is no connection with D&C 76:103 and D&C 63:17-18 but I see it as being the same group and the second death which is pronounced upon this group (the whoremongers, liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie) is the death that only has power over the sons of perdition. So then why the contradiction if they are not the same group?

[Lightbearer]

Section 88 of the D&C is really quite vague also as it never explains where or when the kingdoms of glory exist besides the Celestial in which it makes quite clear. It is logical to presume that because this earth is the Telestial Kingdom that everyone who is here abided by a law that enabled them to come here. According to divine law we are blessed here by Telestial law as we show obedience while in this kingdom. Those who abide not by the law of this kingdom are destroyed in the flesh and delivered over to Satan.

Also notice that in your quoted verse that it starts off by saying that - "They who are of a Celestial spirit...", This leads me to believe that what is being said here is that saints since Christs resurrection have been resurrected and will continue to be resurrected and quickened further according to the glory of the state of the earth at that time. For instance- Everyone who have already been resurrected have been resurrected with the Telestial glory because that is the current glory of the earth. When the earth dies and is quickened at the beginning of the millennium it will have the Terrestrial glory and all previous resurrected souls to that point will thus be quickened in their immortal bodies to that of a Terrestrial glory.

Note also that even Christ in his resurrected form will not be crowned with his Celestial glory until after the millennium according to section 76.

The whole suffering for their own sins bit about the future Telestial heirs in mormon doctrine is what I call an incorrect and dangerous doctrine. Here is why. There are only two resurrections- the Just and the Unjust. If one comes forth in the first or Just resurrection it means that when they do so they are justified in cleansing themselves in the blood of the lamb and pronounced spotless. The unjust or the second resurrection are for those who chose not to repent and are still in a state of unrepentance because they are not justified in cleansing themselves in the Lambs blood. These are the ones the Lord calls the "filthy still".

Do you not think it is just a strange mere coincidence that when speaking of the "last of all" individuals that make up the Telestial inhabitants that they are grouped with or as the sons of perdition? Many have said there is no connection with D&C 76:103 and D&C 63:17-18 but I see it as being the same group and the second death which is pronounced upon this group (the whoremongers, liars, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie) is the death that only has power over the sons of perdition. So then why the contradiction if they are not the same group?

I think the problem you are having is that the gospel is so set up so that those who follow it in it's fullness will inherit the Celestial Kingdom. All the ordinances are for this purpose. He does not want us to go to the lesser kingdoms, nevertheless He has stated: "In my father's house are many mansions." So there is a place for those who fall short. That is the reason for revealing section 76, not so we would know how to reach those other kingdoms but that we would understand that they were there for those who do fall short. No that is not what section 76 is saying, those who inherit the Telestial glory must suffer the second death, however they will be redeemed at the end of the Millenium if they "bow the knee" and accept the atonement of Jesus Christ so they will be saved in a lesser kingdom. If they still remain in rebellion they will be cast out with the sons of perdition because they will be "filthy still" because they will choose to be so. In a since even the Telestial Kingdom falls under the resurrection of the just--after they have been pardoned. That is why the "unpardonable" sin is the denying of the Holy Ghost. These can never be redeemed from the second death because they never repent. There is nothing incorrect or dangerous about the doctrine of the degrees of glory...in fact the ideas of mainstream Chritianity is a much more dangerous doctrine in that it is an "all or nothing" seniario. There is no compassion, no mercy, no justice in that doctrine. God wants to save all of His children that will allow Him to, but he can only do according to their own agency and according to His word. The reason sons of perdition are hopelessly lost is because they choose to follow Lucifer instead of Christ. All the kingdoms of glory are degrees of salvation even though the Telestial does require those to suffer for their sins until the end of the world, since they will have the presence of the Holy Ghost that means they must be cleansed, because no unclean thing can endure the presence of any of the Godhead. Again I quote:

(D&C 76:99-112) "For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of anotherâ??some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud. These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work; When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God. Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever. But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."

That is what section 76 says about those who are worthy of the Telestial. So they are heirs of salvation through the atonement of Christ. That is the true doctrine and I am not sure if you are LDS or an anti or whatever, but that is what the revelations say and they are the truth.

[LifeOnaPlate]

As I have considered the 3 degrees of glory as defined by the LDS church, I realize that if they are correct I would probably want to be in the Kingdom of the partiers. It would seem like a more comfortable place for me to be. If living the gospel as faithfully as members are expected is preparation for the highest kingdom then it wouldn't seem to be as much fun to be placed there.

As my wife always tells me...."you had better get your act together or you won't be in the Celestial Kingdom with me" to which I reply "It is my understanding that you will be able to travel "down" to the other kingdoms so you can come visit me and I'll provide the beer. That is usually when she slaps me.

I figure that my immediate family members live their lives pretty much like I do, so who am I to break up our family is forever by being assigned to a higher kingdom.

BTW for the humor impaired this was pretty much a joke, although if the LDS church is true I pretty much see myself going to one of the lesser kingdoms and I am cool with that.

As long as you stay cool, respect others, you'll be fine, even through the Millennium.

Will there be WICKEDNESS then as now? No. How will you make this appear? When Jesus comes to rule and reign King of Nations as he now does King of Saints, the veil of the covering will be taken from all nations, that all flesh may see his glory together, but that will not make them all Saints. Seeing the Lord does not make a man a Saint, seeing an Angel does not make a man a Saint by any means. A man may see the finger of the Lord, and not thereby become a Saint; the vail of the covering may be taken from before the nations, and all flesh see His glory together, and at the same time declare they will not serve Him.

...They will ask, "If I bow the knee and confess that he is that Saviour, the Christ, to the glory of the Father, will you let me go home and be a Presbyterian?" "Yes." "And not persecute me?" "Never." "Won't you let me go home and belong to the Greek Church?" "Yes." "Will you allow me to be a Friend Quaker, or a Shaking Quaker?" "O yes, anything you wish to be, but remember that you must not persecute your neighbors, but must mind your own business, and let your neighbors alone, and let them worship the sun, moon, a white dog, or anything else they please, being mindful that every knee has got to bow and every tongue confess. When you have paid this tribute to the Most High, who created you and preserves you, you may then go and worship what you please, or do what you please, if you do not infringe upon your neighbors. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 2:309)

Rob sounds like the member of a breakoff sect, RLDS, or some other.