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Heaven, An Exclusive Country Club For Mormons?


Rob Osborn

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Sounds more like he's one of them 'ahhr-teests'. And we all know how hard it is to get a straight answer outta one o' them folks. And aahrteests are notorious for living amongst the rest of us for decades, and coming out on the other side with a completely and totally different experience than everyone else.

So, even though everyone else that goes to church, has heard from age five that "there are many mansions" in our Father's kingdom, we shouldn't automatically call Rob a liar when he says "Christ in all of his teachings never speak of another sphere or place where the "saved" go." He's got his mindset, and not even the gates of hell shall prevail against it.

LM

(Although it's quite a shame this Rob isn't the Rob from that other board. Anyone who posts something like this, is ok in my book:)

expressions.jpg

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Hmm, I just posted this in the "losing salvation" thread, but I could probably just post the same thing here:

As an investigator, I was greatly interested in the doctrine of salvation for most. But, as I have pondered what it really means, I made different conclusions. Simplistic understanding of Heaven and Hell: Hell is worse than your mortal life, Heaven is better than your mortal life. Since we are told that even the lower kingdoms of glory are much better places with much better conditions than this life, it appears that, simplistically, all the kingdoms of glory are Heaven and the outer darkness (where only a tiny fraction of people will go, definitely a smaller percentage than any other Christian religion would have us believe would be going to Hell) is Hell. But, unless there is progression between kingdoms, people in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have no hope of ever reaching their full divine potential. People who have not died yet, on the other hand, can still hope for being exalted. So, in this sense, the lower kingdoms are worse than the mortal life and are definitely Hell. If I live in a luxurious palace without hope, it's much worse than starving but having hope that your conditions will change for the better. So in this sense, a much smaller fraction will inherit Heaven in the LDS understanding than most other churches believe.

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Hmm, I just posted this in the "losing salvation" thread, but I could probably just post the same thing here:

As an investigator, I was greatly interested in the doctrine of salvation for most. But, as I have pondered what it really means, I made different conclusions. Simplistic understanding of Heaven and Hell: Hell is worse than your mortal life, Heaven is better than your mortal life. Since we are told that even the lower kingdoms of glory are much better places with much better conditions than this life, it appears that, simplistically, all the kingdoms of glory are Heaven and the outer darkness (where only a tiny fraction of people will go, definitely a smaller percentage than any other Christian religion would have us believe would be going to Hell) is Hell. But, unless there is progression between kingdoms, people in the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms have no hope of ever reaching their full divine potential. People who have not died yet, on the other hand, can still hope for being exalted. So, in this sense, the lower kingdoms are worse than the mortal life and are definitely Hell. If I live in a luxurious palace without hope, it's much worse than starving but having hope that your conditions will change for the better. So in this sense, a much smaller fraction will inherit Heaven in the LDS understanding than most other churches believe.

You've been watching too much Daria.

And your conclusion that there is no "hope" for any except those who merit exaltation is flawed. Why is it flawed? Because it is based on nothing. There is no evidence to support your premises. We are told very, very little, if anything, about life in the post-resurrection/post-judgment worlds. People often view "heaven" or the various "kingdoms" as actual geographic locations. But that conclusion is not supported by the scriptures. Indeed, a close reading of D&C 76 reveals that those who qualify for exaltation will receive a body that is celestial in its glory, capacities, and form. Likewise, those who (on the basis of their preparation in this life) merit something less than a celestial resurrection, will receive resurrected bodies that are perfect in every way, but which belong to lower orders in terms of their glory, capacities, and form.

What does this mean? I don't know -- beyond what it says. It makes it clear that the distinctions between kingdoms is not geographic in nature; there isn't a wall around the celestial "kingdom" that prevents anyone from a lower order from entering. The celestial "kingdom" is simply a classification of resurrected body. As is the terrestrial and the telestial.

Whether or not one may eventually, according to God's wisdom and timetable, upgrade to a better model -- I'm convinced that God is willing for all to receive all they are willing and prepared to receive. That is attested by scripture, and I believe it is an eternal principle.

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You know, in Mormonism, heaven is a very exclusive place where only a small fraction of the people whom Christ saves get to go to. If you are Mormon like myself we have been taught that the guidelines for this exclusive club are very intense and require perfection to go there. In church we are taught that we are a special people- a special religion where only "our kind" will be there.

It reminds me of the joke where a man dies and goes to heaven and meets up with Peter who is showing him around all the sights in heaven and they come to one portion where there is a very high wall and Peter tells his companion to be very quiet because the Mormons are on the other side and they think they are the only ones here in heaven. I believe there actually is a lot of truth to that joke. John in revelations only mentioned one heaven where all of the "saved" go and all partake of the tree of eternal life alike. Christ also spoke in parables about heaven and separating the bad from the good so that the good could be in heaven all alike with him.

So what do you think, is heaven truly an exclusive Mormon country club, or is there much more to the picture than we realize such as to what John in Revelations was getting at?

I guess it really depends upon if God's conditions for exaltation reside in Mormon church. If they do, then I guess only "Mormons" will make it to heaven.

But we're not arrogant about it. We simply believe it to be true. Please remember that we invite all to partake. None are excluded. So I am not sure what you mean by exclusivity in this context.

Mormons build Temples to provide for these saving ordinances. But we build them with the hope that ALL will receive these blessings -- not to keep people out.

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Read D&C section 76 and you will find out. As President Hinckley said a few years ago the Kingdom of God is not a "Social Club" so your question is not only insulting to anyone who is really a member of the Church but is boardline on being "lightminded" and offensive to the spirit.

Hey Ron--

I wouldn't take this personally. I think LB probably offends even himself on a semi-regular basis.

CK "not thin-skinned" Salmon

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You know, in Mormonism, heaven is a very exclusive place where only a small fraction of the people whom Christ saves get to go to.

Not true.
If you are Mormon like myself we have been taught that the guidelines for this exclusive club are very intense and require perfection to go there.
Again, not true
In church we are taught that we are a special people- a special religion where only "our kind" will be there.
Yet again, not true.
It reminds me of the joke where a man dies and goes to heaven and meets up with Peter who is showing him around all the sights in heaven and they come to one portion where there is a very high wall and Peter tells his companion to be very quiet because the Mormons are on the other side and they think they are the only ones here in heaven. I believe there actually is a lot of truth to that joke.
I've heard the joke too. Not doctrinally based.
John in revelations only mentioned one heaven where all of the "saved" go and all partake of the tree of eternal life alike. Christ also spoke in parables about heaven and separating the bad from the good so that the good could be in heaven all alike with him.
Begging the question here that what Joseph Smith revealed goes against the Bible - and more so, against the Savior. Please don't force your interpretations of the afterlife onto the restored gospel - inaccurate representation at best, insulting false comparison at worst.
So what do you think, is heaven truly an exclusive Mormon country club
No - never has been, never will be
or is there much more to the picture than we realize such as to what John in Revelations was getting at?
What was John getting at?

One big 'call for references' on all of your inferred definitions and understandings of the Gospel. Either you have a very large misunderstanding of what the Gospel teaches, or you are purposefully misrepresenting the Gospel here.

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You know, in Mormonism, heaven is a very exclusive place where only a small fraction of the people whom Christ saves get to go to. If you are Mormon like myself we have been taught that the guidelines for this exclusive club are very intense and require perfection to go there. In church we are taught that we are a special people- a special religion where only "our kind" will be there.

Restrictivism and universalism are opposing views in the soteriology spectrum. Restrictivism affirms that few are saved; universalism asserts that all are saved. It seems restrictive for Mormons to affirm exclusive salvation in Jesus Christ, to preach the importance of knowing the gospel and then repenting in order to be saved.

There is a middle ground, and a flaw in their reasoning.

2 Nephi 9 discusses the need for all to be baptized or they cannot be saved as it says in 2 Nephi 9:23-24

However when Jacob gave this law, he then distinguishes between those who have already accepted these laws and the commandments (2 Nephi 9:27) and those who do not have the law at all (2 Nephi 9:25-26).

"Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him. For the atonement satisfieth the demands of justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel" (2 Nephi 9:25-26).

The damnation is toward those who have both heard and accepted these principles and then transgressed them.

"But woe unto him that has the law given, yea, that has all the commandments of God, like unto us, and that transgresseth them, and that wasteth the days of his probation, for awful is his state!" (2 Nephi 9:27).

Latter-day Saints believe, through the spirit or "Light of Christ," enlightens the entire human family, making them; inclined to believe in a spiritual reality, enabled to distinguish good from evil, and a disposition to choose rightly. While this universal knowledge is not sufficient to obtain all righteousness nor salvation, righteousness and salvation is viewed as a gradual step-by-step process, and that light cleaves unto greater light (D&C 88:40) and also creates degrees of personal accountability, proportionate to the light they possessed at the moment of their choices, which a judgment can be fairly determined.

Now, the requirment for evangelization and baptism usually raises concerns about the justice of God. Its a restrictive belief that personal faith must occur before a person dies. Which is presumed that the authorative Mormons preach this, but they doesn't. I don't know many Christians that entertain the possibility of the unevagelized being able to be saved but LDS doctrines and theology, it is very clear that we believe the unevangelized does not deserve condemnation for their status, AND even in the Book of Mormon as shown indicated that the unevangelized deserved mercy.

The doctrine of limited atonement, of Augustine and Calvin who affirmed that Christ did not die for all human beings but merely for those select few whose salvation was predestined before the foundations of the earth by and through God's sovereign will. They claim we have no need to worry about the salvation of other people, such as the Chinese rice farmer who never heard of Christ, as he was simply not "chosen." Also, there is also the concept of "Original Sin" (by Catholics) that requires baptism for the remission of sins to erase the "original sin of Adam", and went to extremes as baptizing new born babies because they believed humans are automatically tainted by sin, and are damned by default, and it is by "chance" that people are baptized, and that they can be saved.

Given the immense scriptural witness of God's perfect love, many Christians, including Latter-day Saints, find such doctrines of limited atonement totally unpersuasive. Secondly LDS believe in postmortem evangelization before their final judgment and of proxy baptism for the dead, and other resources that enables the dead to fulfill the ends of the law.

While Mormon affirmed the necessity of salvation in Jesus Christ, they maintain that, the ignorant human beings will be able to be reconciled to God, also as that our views of hell is not as "eternal", as the terms that are used, lead some to believe. Now that appears to be universalism, but its not.

Universalists believe God will save all persons out of hell and give all the option to be saved as eternal punishment for finite sins seems unjustly disproportionate. It only seems to fit nicely with some LDS teachings about the post mortal life, though, like C. S. Lewis, Latter-day Saints allow for the possibility that there may be those that will be "rebels to the end."

Universalists often believe that it doesn't matter what religion you are, or all religions are valid, but LDS rather fall more in line with a "Wider-hope" view; that while salvation may not be universally achieved, it is, nonetheless universally accessible.

LDS affirm that God, in his grace, grants every individual a genuine opportunity to participate in the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus, that no human being is excluded from the possibility of benefiting from salvific grace. Even though the specific contours of this belief remain an open question in the other churches, LDS have specific doctrines to the solutions of these problems.

There are key supportive biblical texts for these views: that preach the need for explicit knowledge of Christ for salvation, while other texts teach that condemnation will occur only after explicit rejection of Christ (which cannot come until one has such a sure knowledge of him before rejecting him), and texts that speak of Christ's descent into hell and teaching the gospel in the world of spirits. (1 Peter 3:19–20 and 4:6).

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Hearserve,

I am sorry but I think you have mistaken me for some other Rob Osborn. No problem though it happens all the time. If you would have googled a little harder you would of actually happened upon the real me at rockofsalvation.blogspot.com where I discuss heaven and salvation related topics from a LDS background.

I think mainly in respect of my own religion that when I speak of heaven I am speaking of the Celestial Kingdom as it seems to be the place where both the Father and Son will dwell.

I do not wish to come off a some sort of wacko mormon, just a mormon with some different ideas.

Oh Rob, how I disappoint myself sometimes. My apologies. Wow, did you know that the other Rob Osborn is currently studying and discussing Revelations? I guess that's why I jumped to conclusions. You and he ought to get together. Both your websites are very interesting.

Along with the Steven Seagal chart, he (the other Rob) has a link to this little ditty that you might enjoy, especially if you're a "Bible Only" type.

http://www.whiteboydj.com/babygotbook.html

Yeah, baby got book, and me so holy. So bad I found myself laughing.

And now, back to our regular programming.

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You've been watching too much Daria.

It is not possible to watch too much Daria. It simply isn't.

And your conclusion that there is no "hope" for any except those who merit exaltation is flawed.

Your conclusion concerning what constitutes my conclusion is flawed. Perhaps I was not very clear, but my conclusion was that that's what most people in the Church believe, which has already been demonstrated by some people on this thread. The conclusion of what will be hell [that other people have made, not Zoidberg], is also based on the condition that there would be no progression between kingdoms, which I indicated in my post. Joseph Fielding Smith said "Of course, those who enter the telestial kingdom, and those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have the eternal punishment which will come to them in knowing that they might, if they had kept the commandments of the Lord, have returned to his presence as his sons and his daughters. This will be a torment to them, and in that sense it will be hell." (Answers to Gospel Questions, 2:208-10)

I am aware that some GAs have speculated that there would be eternal progression, or that everyone in the lower kingdom will be perfectly satisfied and not wish for anything better. You are right - there are no premises for assuming what JFS said. Which is why I'm at a loss why so many people in the Church believe it.

Whether or not one may eventually, according to God's wisdom and timetable, upgrade to a better model -- I'm convinced that God is willing for all to receive all they are willing and prepared to receive. That is attested by scripture, and I believe it is an eternal principle.

I am convinced of and believe in the same.

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Standard Christianity (post-Nicene creed) seems to teach that billions of Chinese (or pick your favorite culture), who have never even heard of Christ, are going to Hell for eternity. Such a religion believes in a failed God in my opinion.

Mormonism (restored Christianity) provides a way for all human beings to get to heaven regardless of culture or time lived. Such a plan of salvation builds upon a successful God with an infinite atonement.

So, the mistaken belief that only Mormons get to heaven, makes zero sense to me. It is false doctrine, and is something I have never heard in a Mormon church.

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So, the mistaken belief that only Mormons get to heaven, makes zero sense to me. It is false doctrine, and is something I have never heard in a Mormon church.

Well, it all depends on what you mean by "heaven" and "hell." In the context of Mormonism, one can be saved and damned at the same time. You can go to heaven and still be in hell. Heaven and hell are slippery words in the hands of a Mormon theologian. You'll get nowhere trying to discuss Mormon theology using the language of traditional Christianity; that vocabulary has been manipulated and redefined beyond recognition.

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You know, in Mormonism, heaven is a very exclusive place where only a small fraction of the people whom Christ saves get to go to. If you are Mormon like myself we have been taught that the guidelines for this exclusive club are very intense and require perfection to go there. In church we are taught that we are a special people- a special religion where only "our kind" will be there.

It reminds me of the joke where a man dies and goes to heaven and meets up with Peter who is showing him around all the sights in heaven and they come to one portion where there is a very high wall and Peter tells his companion to be very quiet because the Mormons are on the other side and they think they are the only ones here in heaven. I believe there actually is a lot of truth to that joke. John in revelations only mentioned one heaven where all of the "saved" go and all partake of the tree of eternal life alike. Christ also spoke in parables about heaven and separating the bad from the good so that the good could be in heaven all alike with him.

So what do you think, is heaven truly an exclusive Mormon country club, or is there much more to the picture than we realize such as to what John in Revelations was getting at?

You do not sound like you know anything about Mormon heaven.

Actually Mormon Heaven is far more gracious toward "Gentiles" than any born again faithful. I never heard Mormon justice sending somebody ordinary to "Lake of Fire", which ordinary born agains tend to do regularly.

Being not a faithful LDS I'd rather stick with them because the alternative is literal burning hell.

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Well, it all depends on what you mean by "heaven" and "hell." In the context of Mormonism, one can be saved and damned at the same time. You can go to heaven and still be in hell. Heaven and hell are slippery words in the hands of a Mormon theologian. You'll get nowhere trying to discuss Mormon theology using the language of traditional Christianity; that vocabulary has been manipulated and redefined beyond recognition.

Ahhh yes! but what is "traditional christanity" anymore?

Depends on which Bible a person chooses to read.

:P

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You know, in Mormonism, heaven is a very exclusive place where only a small fraction of the people whom Christ saves get to go to.

"heaven" is a very large place in mormon terms. It entails of three kingdoms where the majority of people who've lived on earth will find their niche.

If you are Mormon like myself we have been taught that the guidelines for this exclusive club are very intense and require perfection to go there.

Like....

In church we are taught that we are a special people- a special religion where only "our kind" will be there.

Lol. Not at all

It reminds me of the joke where a man dies and goes to heaven and meets up with Peter who is showing him around all the sights in heaven and they come to one portion where there is a very high wall and Peter tells his companion to be very quiet because the Mormons are on the other side and they think they are the only ones here in heaven. I believe there actually is a lot of truth to that joke. John in revelations only mentioned one heaven where all of the "saved" go and all partake of the tree of eternal life alike. Christ also spoke in parables about heaven and separating the bad from the good so that the good could be in heaven all alike with him.

Yea, I always thought that joke was built for another religion and someone changed the name to fit mormons...only it didn't translate well with lds theology. That or someone really didn't know their mormons.

So what do you think, is heaven truly an exclusive Mormon country club, or is there much more to the picture than we realize such as to what John in Revelations was getting at?

There's always more to the picture and I never believed it to be a mormon country club.

I'm not the one to question people's authenticity online and prefer to give them the benifit of the doubt. But either you've only slightly paid attention in church or you're not really a mormon, cuz I can't think of anyone else who could have so little understanding on an lds afterlife.

With luv,

BD

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Well, it all depends on what you mean by "heaven" and "hell." In the context of Mormonism, one can be 's esaved and damned at the same time. You can go to heaven and still be in hell. Heaven and hell are slippery words in the hands of a Mormon theologian. You'll get nowhere trying to discuss Mormon theology using the language of traditional Christianity; that vocabulary has been manipulated and redefined beyond recognition.

In a sense, you are right. Mormons believe in 3 levels of heaven -- where virtually everyone goes, except for the extremely rare exception that gets thrown into outer darkness. There is no hell or damnation except in the sense of a discontinuation of one's eternal progression. Even so, I don't think most Mormons claim to know much about what happens at any level of heaven.

But, I think Mormon theology is clear that one's earthly religion will NOT predetermine where one end's up in the eternities. Mormon temple theology is based on the notion that all will have a equal chance.

In fact, one of the great appeals of Mormonism for me, is the notion that all lives on earth, Mormon or not, have equal value in the eyes of God. If Mormons are the "chosen" of God, it is NOT in the sense that we will have a monopoly in heaven. Rather, we are chosen as servants to prepare for the second coming and to prepare the way for the 1000 year reign of Christ. The truth of Mormonism should NEVER be a point of arrogance but a point of humility. There is much work to be done.

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Rob Osborn,

If you are Mormon like myself we have been taught that the guidelines for this exclusive club are very intense and require perfection to go there.

I would disagree it is an exclusive club.

All the righteous go into eternal life. All the just will reign with Christ. All the just will have the glory Of God and will be in their heavenly Father's presence

As a Catholic I have been taught that only those who willfuly turning away from God (a mortal sin) and persist in it until the end will go to hell (see link below).

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm#IV

John in revelations only mentioned one heaven where all of the "saved" go and all partake of the tree of eternal life alike. Christ also spoke in parables about heaven and separating the bad from the good so that the good could be in heaven all alike with him.

I would agree that there is only one heaven] because this is what the Bible reveals.

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Heres the logic of it,from a mormon perspective-

Heaven, or the Kingdom of Heaven as designated from LDS scripture is the actual physical world/place where both God the father and his Son Jesus Christ dwell. Notice how the designation includes both people as is correct with scripture. LDS scripture does not speak of a separate heavenly realm where the saved go but where only one personage dwells. Once in the Celestial Kingdom, the son Jesus Christ will reign there in that kingdom to go no more out. He will not be the God or presiding personage and dwell in a lesser kingdom at that point. He will however reign in the Terrestrial Kingdom. But that doesn't make sense doeis it? Sound like a contradiction?

He is able and will reign personally "the whole time" on the Terrestrial world. There is no contradiction however with him reigning in both the Terrestrial and Celestial Kingdom as they will not exist at the same time. Both the Temple and scripture teach that the earth in it's progression will procede from the Telestial kingdom (the lone and dreary world we now live in) to the Terrestrial Kingdom during the millennium and then finally to the Celestial Kingdom after the millennium is over. Because both the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms will have an end in their existance, there will be no need For Christ to visit some lesser kingdom in eternity like we typically think in LDS thought. The scriptures are very clear that once Christ enters the Celestial Kingdom and is crowned with his glory that he will reside in "that kingdom" and not a lesser throughout eternity.

So in all reality John in Revelations picture of Heaven is spot on in depicting only "one heaven" (one sphere/ world) where "all" of the saved go. One question I have for fellow LDS is this- How do we know that the Telestial & Terrestrial Kingdoms are really nothing more than what the temple describes them as being- namely the temporary stages of the mortal earth before it is Celestialized? If we are not sure, then how can we be so sure that those same kingdoms as is spoken of in section 76 may be eternal in their nature and duration?

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I should of clarified one of the main points of the discussion in which I failed to do so. Here it is-

Both Christ and John in Revelations (amongst countless other prophets) speak of "heaven" as being in one physical place- specifically, on this earth after the millennium is over and the earth becomes Celestialized. Christ in all of his teachings never speak of another sphere or place where the "saved" go. They are always saved to the same place. In Revelations (which I believe is true) John speaks of the Holy City of the Living God (the Father) coming down out of heaven and to the earth. Once established, the earth attains it's Celestial splendor. Inside the city is where both the Father and the Son dwell. Also in the city resides the tree of life. The city has twelve gates representing the twelve tribes of Israel. The names of the saved are written upon the gates of the city and in the book of life. So here is where it gets interesting-

John, along with Christ, spell it out quite clearly that if you are not part of this Celestial society then you are the dogs and whoremongers outside of the city gates- outside of the book of life- name not written therin. Christ taught his gospel that everyone who wants saved inside of this city (kingdom of God), must be obedient and be baptized by one having authority. If one does not do this then they have no right to enter the gate into the city as their name will not be found written in the book of life. So they will then be the dogs and whoremongers outside of the city walls- the very devils and angels to the devils!

Perhaps then the situation needs to be looked at in a different light. If the only way to be saved is to be cleansed of ones sins through proper baptism, then the exclusive club really exists, only now it includes everyone excepting the sons of perdition as they are the only ones who would remain unforgiven of their trespasses and sins by not showing obedience to divine command.

If this be the case, then the saved all go to the exclusive country club and are members while only the sop are excluded. This to me sounds more true to be the case. It seems to make more sense that all of the saved go to the same sphere rather than three different worlds. Think about it- there is only one thing that keeps us from the Fathers presence- sin! If sin is fully forgiven through the atonement to the repentant, then all the repentant souls from the beginning of time will all have exclusive passes to the Kingdom of god (celestial kingdom).

Heaven (expansion), it is a state of being, not a place.

Determined on how you are being is the place that you stay.

You can be in heaven now, it is at hand, it is within you. It is not necessary to physically die to visit this state of being, nor remain in it.

God and Christ will appear and minister to all who reach the highest state of being. Which is sometimes called Perfection, or Translated, or Born of the Spirit. In which one can come and go as the wind.

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Hey Ron--

I wouldn't take this personally. I think LB probably offends even himself on a semi-regular basis.

CK "not thin-skinned" Salmon

What was offensive about what I said? Actually President Hinckley did make that remark with the words "Social Club." See:
President Gordon B. Hinckley has said: â??It should be recognized that this church is not a social club. This is the kingdom of God in the earth. It is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Its purpose is to bring salvation and exaltation to both the living and the deadâ? (Ensign, May 1990, p. 97).
If I am offensive I am only rendering in kind.
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Heres the logic of it,from a mormon perspective-

Heaven, or the Kingdom of Heaven as designated from LDS scripture is the actual physical world/place where both God the father and his Son Jesus Christ dwell. Notice how the designation includes both people as is correct with scripture. LDS scripture does not speak of a separate heavenly realm where the saved go but where only one personage dwells. Once in the Celestial Kingdom, the son Jesus Christ will reign there in that kingdom to go no more out. He will not be the God or presiding personage and dwell in a lesser kingdom at that point. He will however reign in the Terrestrial Kingdom. But that doesn't make sense doeis it? Sound like a contradiction?

He is able and will reign personally "the whole time" on the Terrestrial world. There is no contradiction however with him reigning in both the Terrestrial and Celestial Kingdom as they will not exist at the same time. Both the Temple and scripture teach that the earth in it's progression will procede from the Telestial kingdom (the lone and dreary world we now live in) to the Terrestrial Kingdom during the millennium and then finally to the Celestial Kingdom after the millennium is over. Because both the Telestial and Terrestrial kingdoms will have an end in their existance, there will be no need For Christ to visit some lesser kingdom in eternity like we typically think in LDS thought. The scriptures are very clear that once Christ enters the Celestial Kingdom and is crowned with his glory that he will reside in "that kingdom" and not a lesser throughout eternity.

So in all reality John in Revelations picture of Heaven is spot on in depicting only "one heaven" (one sphere/ world) where "all" of the saved go. One question I have for fellow LDS is this- How do we know that the Telestial & Terrestrial Kingdoms are really nothing more than what the temple describes them as being- namely the temporary stages of the mortal earth before it is Celestialized? If we are not sure, then how can we be so sure that those same kingdoms as is spoken of in section 76 may be eternal in their nature and duration?

Okay I guess I will have to quote the other two:
(D&C 76:71-80) And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament. Behold, these are they who died without law; And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh; Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun. These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God. And now this is the end of the vision which we saw of the terrestrial, that the Lord commanded us to write while we were yet in the Spirit."

That was the vision of the terrestrial kingdom. Now for the Telestial:
(D&C 76:81-112) "And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament. These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus. These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit. These are they who are thrust down to hell. These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work. These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial; And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial. And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation. And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding; And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it. And thus we saw the glory of the terrestrial which excels in all things the glory of the telestial, even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion. And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all thingsâ??where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever; Before whose throne all things bow in humble reverence, and give him glory forever and ever. They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace; And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion. And the glory of the celestial is one, even as the glory of the sun is one. And the glory of the terrestrial is one, even as the glory of the moon is one. And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of anotherâ??some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But areceived not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud. These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God. Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever. But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore; And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end."
That was the vision of the Telestial Kingdom. Notice the underlined passages it does not state in the vision that Christ will reign in the Terrestrial Kingdom--note it does say that they will be administered to by those who are appointed to do so because they are heirs of salvation. You mistake in your interpreting this earth as being the Telestial Kingdom, it is true that it does abide by telestial law and is in a "telestial state" in the Millenial reign this earth will be under Terrestrial law and this earth is destined to be a Celestial Kingdom to those who can abide the glory of a Celestial World. However you are misinterpreting the difference between a resurrected being living in a kingdom of Glory and the temporary states of law under which this earth has endured. Every person will be resurrected to the glory or law they have lived while in mortality. But the final state of Kingdom in which they reside will be according to the bodies they receive in the resurrection. We can be sure of the eternal nature of those kingdoms by the following:
(D&C 88:14-39) "Now, verily I say unto you, that through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead. And the spirit and the body are the soul of man. And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul. And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it. Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory; For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father; That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified. And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom. For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a ccelestial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory. And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory. And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the lawâ?? Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it. For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body. They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same bbody which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened. Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness. And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift. And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same. That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still. All kingdoms have a law given; And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions. All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified."
So I really do not know what you are getting at, but we do know from the revelations just cited that in the resurrection and final judgement these three kingdoms do and will exist "worlds without end." Those who go to the Telestial kingdom must endure the suffering known as "hell" until they have paid the "uttermost farthing" however they still must "bow the knee and confess that Jesus is the Christ" according to the above revelations so all will be saved (redeemed) except the sons of perdition. Also that those who are "filthy still" or sons of perdition will be resurrected but not to a kingdom of glory they will end up in "outer darkness with Satan and his angels. So there is no inconsistency in the revelations of the restoration.
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What was offensive about what I said?

To me? Nothing at all.

I just find it a bit silly that you are so ready to take offense at the rather innocuous post of a fellow believer.

You appear to be the thin-skinned one, frankly. "Insulting" to real believers. Potentially offensive to the Spirit.

Okay.

Or, just a sincere question.

By all means, devour your own.

CKS

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