Signs Or Proof

[Hoops22]

God's true church is within you, it is not in memberships, or organizations, it is with anyone that lives according to the divine principles of Christ.

I find this interesting for an LDS to believe. Where do we get these divine principles? and how faithfully do we have to follow them?

I have thought for some time that you may be on to something with this caveat. God's true church - as I understand you using the term - is not within us, as we are sinful and corruptible - rather it maintains fealty to Jesus Christ. It's EXPRESSION may vary, and a particular culture's understanding may be less significant i.e. the Trinity, but nonetheless...

[LifeOnaPlate]

I find this interesting for an LDS to believe. Where do we get these divine principles? and how faithfully do we have to follow them?

I have thought for some time that you may be on to something with this caveat. God's true church - as I understand you using the term - is not within us, as we are sinful and corruptible - rather it maintains fealty to Jesus Christ. It's EXPRESSION may vary, and a particular culture's understanding may be less significant i.e. the Trinity, but nonetheless...

Son doesn't belong to a church as far as I know. But I would add I agree with him to a certain extent. If the Church isn't within you, mere attendance isn't going to do much. You can sit in a garage all night long and it doesn't make you turn into a car any more than sitting in a Church and not letting Christ in will make you a Christian.

[solomarineris]

Next it is Alma's turn:This is a wonderful example of how to deal with those who deny the Gospel and demand a sign. What better sign to give than to strike him dumb! Notice the cowardice when he tells him if he denys again he will be struck dumb he says "I do not believe that there is a God" trying to backpeddle a little. Then he gets his sign...much to his distress.

Isn't this parable so conveniently penned to promote faith, which has absolutely no mucle behind it? I think Korihor was much more resonable than how the today's multitudes feel regarding the God's existence.

God should care less about Korihors and feed the hungry in Africa, stop the wars being faught in his name.

Is it unreasonable to ask?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Isn't this parable so conveniently penned to promote faith, which has absolutely no mucle behind it? I think Korihor was much more resonable than how the today's multitudes feel regarding the God's existence.

God should care less about Korihors and feed the hungry in Africa, stop the wars being faught in his name.

Is it unreasonable to ask?

I don't know if it is or isn't. What are you currently doing to help the situation [other than joining the "One" campaign or something.]

[Sethbag]

ROFL, thanks Son for helping me demonstrate my point. You are just what I'm talking about then, with your own sureness about your direct faith being the right way way to go, which contradicts the witnesses of the LDS that the LDS church is the right way to go.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Son's powerful spiritual "knowledge" that he's gotten from God does not reinforce belief that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon isn't reinforced as being true, that Gordon B. Hinckley is not reinforced as being a true prophet of God today, etc. Would I be wrong in saying this?

[LifeOnaPlate]

ROFL, thanks Son for helping me demonstrate my point. You are just what I'm talking about then, with your own sureness about your direct faith being the right way way to go, which contradicts the witnesses of the LDS that the LDS church is the right way to go.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Son's powerful spiritual "knowledge" that he's gotten from God does not reinforce belief that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon isn't reinforced as being true, that Gordon B. Hinckley is not reinforced as being a true prophet of God today, etc. Would I be wrong in saying this?

Sethbag: I spent some time responding to you and you decided to ignore it, and just continue with the mocking, instead. I'm not a huge fan of censorship, so I'm not going to put you on ignore, but I'm probably not going to engage with you again. I know you are propably saying "oh, boo hoo," about it, but just to let you know, I'm disappointed in the way you handle yourself in these discussions.

Edited for spelling.

[Son]

ROFL, thanks Son for helping me demonstrate my point. You are just what I'm talking about then, with your own sureness about your direct faith being the right way way to go, which contradicts the witnesses of the LDS that the LDS church is the right way to go.

The direct route to anywhere is usually best, why waste time?

Contradictions? Welcome to planet earth......

If a member of the LDS faith believes that following the precepts of that religion will lead them to God and they are sincere about it. Then it will lead them to God. The LDS Faith has all of the scripture and teachings necessary to guide one to elightenment, and oneness. Just because man throws in his own interpretations here and there and may trip up some for a season, does not mean that they can not grow into perfection while being part of a given church, and its systems. Intent is the qualifier. Discipline and sincerity are additional tools to success.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that Son's powerful spiritual "knowledge" that he's gotten from God does not reinforce belief that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, that the Book of Mormon isn't reinforced as being true, that Gordon B. Hinckley is not reinforced as being a true prophet of God today, etc. Would I be wrong in saying this?

Joseph Smith was a true Prophet, anyone reading and studying the history should find this to be true.

The BoM is so far above mortal knowledge, that it definitely came from God. No man on his own merits could write such heavenly words.

You are correct on the third point, I have heard, nor seen any evidence that would make GBH a Prophet chosen of God. A noble and inspired man, by all accounts loving and kind. But called as was Aaron, directly from God, I have never heard him say that this is his testimony.

Without offense, I would classify him similar to the Catholic Pope in regards only to the way he was chosen, as far as I know. (How's that for a disclaimer).

Godspeed to you Sethbag

son

[Son]

I find this interesting for an LDS to believe. Where do we get these divine principles? and how faithfully do we have to follow them?

I have thought for some time that you may be on to something with this caveat. God's true church - as I understand you using the term - is not within us, as we are sinful and corruptible - rather it maintains fealty to Jesus Christ. It's EXPRESSION may vary, and a particular culture's understanding may be less significant i.e. the Trinity, but nonetheless...

Divine principles come from God. We follow them in varying degrees based on our individual desire to live like Christ. Our re-wards are defined by our desire to live the highest teachings or the lowest. Rewards are no more or less than what we are, they are wards of being, earthly wards have become mostly symbolic and have become diluted in ceremony and substance. I know this to be true based on the fruits of righteousness being rare, and not common. As well as power being for the most part non-existent in the many bodies of organizations on this earth.

The Kingdom of Heaven (expansion-growth) is within in you, it is at Hand. Within reach. The Spirit of God is our guide to us be-coming true.

If membership aids this journey, then it has worked well, if it is a stumbling block, then it has not. Only the participant can truly decide if it is a benefit to perfection or not...

son

[Hammer]

The direct route to anywhere is usually best, why waste time?

Contradictions? Welcome to planet earth......

If a member of the LDS faith believes that following the precepts of that religion will lead them to God and they are sincere about it. Then it will lead them to God. The LDS Faith has all of the scripture and teachings necessary to guide one to elightenment, and oneness. Just because man throws in his own interpretations here and there and may trip up some for a season, does not mean that they can not grow into perfection while being part of a given church, and its systems. Intent is the qualifier. Discipline and sincerity are additional tools to success.

Joseph Smith was a true Prophet, anyone reading and studying the history should find this to be true.

The BoM is so far above mortal knowledge, that it definitely came from God. No man on his own merits could write such heavenly words.

You are correct on the third point, I have heard, nor seen any evidence that would make GBH a Prophet chosen of God. A noble and inspired man, by all accounts loving and kind. But called as was Aaron, directly from God, I have never heard him say that this is his testimony.

Without offense, I would classify him similar to the Catholic Pope in regards only to the way he was chosen, as far as I know. (How's that for a disclaimer).

Godspeed to you Sethbag

son

You have stated so many truths here I have to stop and take a breath. Too bad it won't be understood by most who are contrary.

[Hoops22]

Divine principles come from God. We follow them in varying degrees based on our individual desire to live like Christ. Our re-wards are defined by our desire to live the highest teachings or the lowest. Rewards are no more or less than what we are, they are wards of being, earthly wards have become mostly symbolic and have become diluted in ceremony and substance. I know this to be true based on the fruits of righteousness being rare, and not common. As well as power being for the most part non-existent in the many bodies of organizations on this earth.

The Kingdom of Heaven (expansion-growth) is within in you, it is at Hand. Within reach. The Spirit of God is our guide to us be-coming true.

If membership aids this journey, then it has worked well, if it is a stumbling block, then it has not. Only the participant can truly decide if it is a benefit to perfection or not...

son

You're not a lawyer are you? This makes as much sense to me as the contract I signed for my cell phone. In other words........huh?

[auteur55]

Many here say God expects us to accept the church on faith and not ask for a sign.

Isn't the BOM the "sign" given to man to know that Joseph was telling the truth and that the great restoration was under way. To me the BOM is a powerful response to "I want proof."

[Son]

You're not a lawyer are you? This makes as much sense to me as the contract I signed for my cell phone. In other words........huh?

If you are so inclined, read the chapters posted on my blog. They will give you an opportunity to see what I mean.

We are the temples of God, not some depository of weakness, sin and error.

Separate the tests from the tested.

Not a lawyer, Son of God, Dad, Husband,Land Developer, oh and I shred on a wakeboard .

added to say; That wasn't very humble, I like to wakeboard.

son

[Hoops22]

If you are so inclined, read the chapters posted on my blog. They will give you an opportunity to see what I mean.

We are the temples of God, not some depository of weakness, sin and error.

Separate the tests from the tested.

Not a lawyer, Son of God, Dad, Husband,Land Developer, oh and I shred on a wakeboard .

added to say; That wasn't very humble, I like to wakeboard.

son

I read as much as I could. More of the same. Is this LDS theology? Or Son theology?

[Son]

I read as much as I could. More of the same. Is this LDS theology? Or Son theology?

It stems from Christ theology. It is a branch of His word. It is not Son's theology, but I hope to be it more and more each day.

Sorry if it was not for you. Maybe another time, and another frame of mind.

son

[Hoops22]

It stems from Christ theology. It is a branch of His word. It is not Son's theology, but I hope to be it more and more each day.

Sorry if it was not for you. Maybe another time, and another frame of mind.

son

"Christ's theology" based on what? Taken from where?

Not trying to snippy here, just trying to understand.

[Son]

"Christ's theology" based on what? Taken from where?

Not trying to snippy here, just trying to understand.

No worries, new thoughts sometimes need to be watered before they can grow.

I can't really give you an answer to; "based on what", if you have not digested the information and don't have some assemblence of what the words mean.

Maybe you could show me how it is not Christ.

son

[Lightbearer]

Isn't this parable so conveniently penned to promote faith, which has absolutely no mucle behind it? I think Korihor was much more resonable than how the today's multitudes feel regarding the God's existence.

God should care less about Korihors and feed the hungry in Africa, stop the wars being faught in his name.

Is it unreasonable to ask?

This is not a parable, it is an actual event, although it can be used as a prototype of how those who deny truth operate. Korihor was deceived by a lying spirit, Satan has many tools in his bag today he uses the pride and arrogance of science so-called as well as false religion. Yes God cares just as much about Korihor as he does the hungry in Africa and those who kill in their blind attempt to "do God a service." We are given our agency to choose to feed the starving in Africa and to oppose bloody tyrants and crazed evil terrorists. He does things according to His own wisdom and what would be for our greatest good, the example of Amulek and Alma shows why he sometimes does not intervien directly:

(Alma 14:8-28) "And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire.

And it came to pass that they took Alma and Amulek, and carried them forth to the place of martyrdom, that they might witness the destruction of those who were consumed by fire.

And when Amulek saw the pains of the women and children who were consuming in the fire, he also was pained; and he said unto Alma: How can we witness this awful scene? Therefore let us stretch forth our hands, and exercise the power of God which is in us, and save them from the flames.

But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in glory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

Now Amulek said unto Alma: Behold, perhaps they will burn us also.

And Alma said: Be it according to the will of the Lord. But, behold, our work is not finished; therefore they burn us not.

Now it came to pass that when the bodies of those who had been cast into the fire were consumed, and also the records which were cast in with them, the chief judge of the land came and stood before Alma and Amulek, as they were bound; and he smote them with his hand upon their cheeks, and said unto them: After what ye have seen, will ye preach again unto this people, that they shall be cast into a lake of fire and brimstone?

Behold, ye see that ye had not power to save those who had been cast into the fire; neither has God saved them because they were of thy faith. And the judge smote them again upon their cheeks, and asked: What say ye for yourselves?

Now this judge was after the order and faith of Nehor, who slew Gideon.

And it came to pass that Alma and Amulek answered him nothing; and he smote them again, and delivered them to the officers to be cast into prison.

And when they had been cast into prison three days, there came many lawyers, and judges, and priests, and teachers, who were of the profession of Nehor; and they came in unto the prison to see them, and they questioned them about many words; but they answered them nothing.

And it came to pass that the judge stood before them, and said: Why do ye not answer the words of this people? Know ye not that I have power to deliver you up unto the flames? And he commanded them to speak; but they answered nothing.

And it came to pass that they departed and went their ways, but came again on the morrow; and the judge also smote them again on their cheeks. And many came forth also, and smote them, saying: Will ye stand again and judge this people, and condemn our law? If ye have such great power why do ye not deliver yourselves?

And many such things did they say unto them, gnashing their teeth upon them, and spitting upon them, and saying: How shall we look when we are damned?

And many such things, yea, all manner of such things did they say unto them; and thus they did mock them for many days. And they did withhold food from them that they might hunger, and water that they might thirst; and they also did take from them their clothes that they were naked; and thus they were bound with strong cords, and confined in prison.

And it came to pass after they had thus suffered for many days, (and it was on the twelfth day, in the tenth month, *in the tenth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi) that the chief judge over the land of Ammonihah and many of their teachers and their lawyers went in unto the prison where Alma and Amulek were bound with cords.

And the chief judge stood before them, and smote them again, and said unto them: If ye have the power of God deliver yourselves from these bands, and then we will believe that the Lord will destroy this people according to your words.

And it came to pass that they all went forth and smote them, saying the same words, even until the last; and when the last had spoken unto them the apower of God was upon Alma and Amulek, and they rose and stood upon their feet.

And Alma cried, saying: How long shall we suffer these great afflictions, O Lord? O Lord, give us strength according to our faith which is in Christ, even unto deliverance. And they broke the cords with which they were bound; and when the people saw this, they began to flee, for the fear of destruction had come upon them.

And it came to pass that so great was their fear that they fell to the earth, and did not obtain the outer door of the prison; and the earth shook mightily, and the walls of the prison were rent in twain, so that they fell to the earth; and the chief judge, and the lawyers, and priests, and teachers, who smote upon Alma and Amulek, were slain by the fall thereof.

And Alma and Amulek came forth out of the prison, and they were not hurt; for the Lord had granted unto them power, according to their faith which was in Christ. And they straightway came forth out of the prison; and they were loosed from their bands; and the prison had fallen to the earth, and every soul within the walls thereof, save it were Alma and Amulek, was slain; and they straightway came forth into the city."

Later we read that the city of Ammonihah was completely destroyed by the Lamanites. The Lord will allow things just so long and when their "cup of inquity" gets full then the judgements of God come upon the rebellious.

[nana]

Having been off the board for a bit, I am coming late to this party, but this thread topic has been on my mind for quite some time.

What is the difference between non-believers asking for proof and believers asking for "call for references" or proof from non believers?

It seems to me that by accusing the non believers of being and wicked and adulterous generation, the believers also fall into that catagory.

Everything must be proven, there are no allowances for personal revelation or personal thought.

Perhaps the old adage, "no honesty between thieves" is relevant here.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, each person believes his own theories and is doubtful and critical of anyone who disagrees with them.

[AlwaysThinking]

I haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize in advance if my response doesn't fit in to the current discussion...

Why do Mormons offer proof all the time, and not count it as sign seeking?

...I paid my tithing and I was blessed! PROOF!!

...I received a blessing and I was healed! PROOF!!

...I prayed to know if the BoM was true, and received a revelation!! PROOF!!

...My friend felt the spirit and didn't go on that airplane, and the airplane wrecked! PROOF!

...My ancestor was a cripple from birth, and when she was baptized, she came out of the water and never needed crutches again! PROOF!! (this is a true story from my pioneer ancestry)

...Christ healed the blind! PROOF!!

We are taught to seek for signs (spiritual witness), but the minute someone says that answers never came, then of course that is because they were sign seeking, and they shouldn't do that. Very confusing.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I haven't read the whole thread, so I apologize in advance if my response doesn't fit in to the current discussion...

First, there is a difference between the "wicked and adulterous" sign-seekers and people who witness miracles as a product of their faith. Reading the New Testament again should clear up the difference.

Secondly, read the whole thread.

[Son]

"bump" for hoops22 reply?

Maybe you could show me how it is not Christ.

[MJNSW]

By your definition, isn't praying for a witness seeking a sign? Doesn't the scripture refer to those who want miracles to verify religious claims, rather than those who seek historical for historical claims?

I think that is a beautiful point! Thank you!

[LifeOnaPlate]

I think that is a beautiful point! Thank you!

By the definition praying to ask God if something is true is not on the same level as "sign-seeking" when condemned by Christ. Or are we always to rely only on what people tell us?

[amantha]

How is Moroni's promise any different? You're still seeking a sign, even if it is a spiritual one.

Those of you that have received a witness via the spirit are no longer operating on faith, right? You KNOW that it is true because you've asked for a sign and been given it.

Also, why is it that religion is the only thing in most of our lives that we gladly suspend any skepticism? If someone came to my door asking that I give 10% of my earning for the promise of some HUGE reward to be paid out years later, you better believe I'd do some homework on this guy. But if we do homework on religion, we are now suddenly "sign seeking". Doesn't make much sense.

Amen. There is no difference. "Prove ALL things."

[LifeOnaPlate]

For the record, scottie, I wouldn't call investigating history "sign seeking."