Signs Or Proof

[Truth]

So, basically what you are saying is that the BoM contradicts the Bible.

The Bible tells us that we should live on faith alone and that to seek a sign is wickedness.

Then the BoM comes along and tells you to ask for a sign?

In the purest sense of the word, is this not what you are doing when you ask God to know if the BoM is true? Other than the fact that it's in the form of the still small voice and not in the form of a lightning bolt, how is it any different?

Not at all, in fact they support each other in it. Christ specifically directs us to ask of the Father for what we need. Christ condems those who seek a sign for amusement or curiosity, He does not say that we are not to ask.

[Scottie]

skenderbeg,

Thank you for your post. I can agree with you that asking for a sign based on contention is a much different situation than asking for a sign based on wanting true knowledge.

However, the scripture you reference does NOT make that distinction. It is intended for EVERYONE that seeks a sign.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. Basically, the point being made is that you should live by faith. If you ask for a sign and receive it, you have now nullified faith. You now know.

How many LDS do you know that claim to KNOW because they have been answered by the Holy Ghost when they asked for a sign from God? They have nullified their faith. This is exactly what the Bible was talking about.

If I were sincerely asking for a sign from God and He sent a lightning bolt, thereby proving to me that He exists, how is that any different?

This is something that I have requested many times. I need something more than the whispering of the spirit. I certainly don't know how to tell if it is my own feelings or something external. I'm not demanding exactly what God should give to me, just something more. God supposedly knows me better than I know myself, so He should know that 1) I can't trust the feelings of the spirit and 2) what that something more is that I could trust. Is this sign seeking in your eyes? After all, I am doing it in the spirit of knowing, not contention. I am often called wicked for demanding that God do things my way rather than His way. I say that I am merely trying to be true to myself. I know myself and I know that I can't accept feelings of the spirit, therefore I need more.

As a parent, do you teach all of your children the exact same way? Or do some respond better to different forms of teaching than others?

Truth,

Christ condems those who seek a sign for amusement or curiosity

CFR

[Truth]

Truth,

CFR

Mathew 7 (or Luke 11:9-13):

7

[LifeOnaPlate]

skenderbeg,

Thank you for your post. I can agree with you that asking for a sign based on contention is a much different situation than asking for a sign based on wanting true knowledge.

That's what I said from the start, yo.

[Scottie]

Mathew 7 (or Luke 11:9-13):

7

[LifeOnaPlate]

I didn't see anything in there about Christ condemning those who seek a sign for amusement or curiosity...

That's great, but what about the rest of my post?

Sometimes people can be converted by a miraculous experience, but more often, faith precedes the miracle, as Pres. Spencer Kimball would say. As far as gaining knowledge goes, you have something right on the nose: God expects us to research, read, think, feel, and investigate, just as you say. It is a process of "counting the cost," and it is a part of being converted, or deciding against it. I can see how the "wicked and adulterous" quote puts off people who are accused of "seeking signs," it is a little insulting, as if to presume that you or someone else is somehow not as "good" as someone who says they received a testimony of the truth. That's one reason Nephi says that even talking about it "cuts." It can be spoken of more delicately, that's for sure, if you're after that political correctness stuff.

So as you said, it isn't about blind faith, or not seeking evidence, we are actually commanded to do so. But I don't see that as falling under the definition of "sign-seeking." I listed two examples earlier, the one being people mocking Jesus to come down off the cross if he really was the Son of God. The other example was of a man who believed Jesus could heal a loved one, but said he needed help with his "unbelief." It seems the attitude of the sign-seekers is demonstrated by the Pharisees, who contemptuously tried to trick Jesus in his words, etc., and demanded proof, expecting he could't provide such. A 'dare,' if you will, rather than an 'investigation' with pure motives. Contrast the two attitudes and you'll find the scritpural CFR you are looking for.

"There must be works with faith. How foolish it would be to ask the Lord to give us knowledge, but how wise to ask the Lord's help to acquire knowledge, to study constructively, to think clearly, and to retain things that we have learned" (Pres, Kimball, Faith Precedes the Miracle, p. 205).

From LDS.org:

By faith, miracles are wrought, angels appear, the gifts of the Spirit are given, prayers are answered, and men become the sons of God (see Moroni 7:25-26, 36-37). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught:

"When faith comes it brings . . . apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, gifts, wisdom, knowledge, miracles, healings, tongues, interpretation of tongues, etc. All these appear when faith appears on the earth, and disappear when it disappears from the earth; for these are the effects of faith. . . . And he who possesses it will, through it, obtain all necessary knowledge and wisdom, until he shall know God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, whom he has sent--whom to know is eternal life. Amen" (Lectures on Faith, p. 69).

[Lightbearer]

So, basically what you are saying is that the BoM contradicts the Bible.

The Bible tells us that we should live on faith alone and that to seek a sign is wickedness.

Then the BoM comes along and tells you to ask for a sign?

In the purest sense of the word, is this not what you are doing when you ask God to know if the BoM is true? Other than the fact that it's in the form of the still small voice and not in the form of a lightning bolt, how is it any different?

When we are instructed to ask God if the Book of Mormon is true we are not asking for a sign. We are asking for a witness from the Holy Ghost. Much like Peter who knew Jesus was the Christ because flesh and blood had not revealed it but His Father in Heaven. Seeking a sign indicates something physical such as a "bolt of lightning" or a burning bush, or something to impress the eyes of the natural man. Signs such as healings, or even raising the dead if not mixed with faith in the one that experiences it is not unto salvation, in fact quite the opposite. Faith is to precede the miracle. Faith is not gained by a sign. Faith comes from hearing the word of God whether in the Bible or the Book of Mormon, and the role of the Holy Ghost is to bear witness of Jesus Christ and the Father and to confirm the truth of all things. Moses showed many "signs" unto Pharoh who hardened his heart against them because his magicians could duplicate the things that were shown. It wasn't until he was humbled by the deaths of the firstborn of Egypt that he allowed the children of Israel to leave. Even then he had second thoughts and sent his armies to destroy them. After the children of Israel had seen the Red Sea part and they walked through on dry ground and the Egyptian armies destroyed by the hand of the Lord they still rebelled against Moses and God and built a golden calf. After what they "saw" with their natural eyes how could they have done that? Faith is not seeing signs, the change of heart must come from within and by the power of the Holy Ghost or the change is only temporary. Laman and Lemuel are prime examples they saw an angel, they heard the voice of God, they were shocked by the power of God and yet they would not believe Nephi or Lehi. They got to the point where they were past feeling they could not feel the promptings of the Holy Ghost and they were unimpressed by any signs. In fact later in the Book of Mormon we read that the people were greatly impressed by the signs of the coming of Christ. But later after they had hardened their hearts they were not really impressed by any signs, they made excuses: "Maybe they just guessed right." They had become so hardned they were ripe for destruction. So the Bible and the Book of Mormon both testify that faith is an absolute essential to see signs unto salvation. Let us examine the Book of Mormon challenge:

(Moroni 10:3-5) "Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

Note the underlined part, how is that asking for a sign? Looks a lot like faith in Christ is essential to getting an answer by the power of the Holy Ghost. So the Book of Mormon is in complete agreement with the Bible on signseeking. In order to get anything from God you must have faith first, that is the difference! One more quote just for comparison:

(James 1:5-7) "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

[Scottie]

Sometimes people can be converted by a miraculous experience, but more often, faith precedes the miracle, as Pres. Spencer Kimball would say. As far as gaining knowledge goes, you have something right on the nose: God expects us to research, read, think, feel, and investigate, just as you say. It is a process of "counting the cost," and it is a part of being converted, or deciding against it. I can see how the "wicked and adulterous" quote puts off people who are accused of "seeking signs," it is a little insulting, as if to presume that you or someone else is somehow not as "good" as someone who says they received a testimony of the truth. That's one reason Nephi says that even talking about it "cuts." It can be spoken of more delicately, that's for sure, if you're after that political correctness stuff.

So as you said, it isn't about blind faith, or not seeking evidence, we are actually commanded to do so. But I don't see that as falling under the definition of "sign-seeking." I listed two examples earlier, the one being people mocking Jesus to come down off the cross if he really was the Son of God. The other example was of a man who believed Jesus could heal a loved one, but said he needed help with his "unbelief." It seems the attitude of the sign-seekers is demonstrated by the Pharisees, who contemptuously tried to trick Jesus in his words, etc., and demanded proof, expecting he could't provide such. A 'dare,' if you will, rather than an 'investigation' with pure motives. Contrast the two attitudes and you'll find the scritpural CFR you are looking for.

From LDS.org:

I can agree with you that the whole "oh ya, if there is a God then I want him to send me a million dollars tomorrow in the mail" kind of sign seeking is silly and insincere.

But that wasn't really my point. Perhaps I missed where you addressed it, but I'll reiterate it again.

The passage in Matt is saying that we should live by faith, and that those seeking a sign are trying to supplant faith with knowledge. When Mormons are taught to pray to get a sure witness, they are, in essence, seeking a sign that will supplant that faith as well. They want, and claim, to know. They are no longer living by faith.

Also, why is "adulterous" always put with wicked?? Can't you just be wicked without be adulterous? Is that sort of like "sick and tired"? You can't just be sick or tired, you always have to be both??

[skenderbeg]

skenderbeg,

Thank you for your post. I can agree with you that asking for a sign based on contention is a much different situation than asking for a sign based on wanting true knowledge.

I can only agree with the desire to want 'true knowledge'.

However, the scripture you reference does NOT make that distinction. It is intended for EVERYONE that seeks a sign.

This is a misunderstanding of what I am saying. Seeking after signs is wrong - seeking after direction from Heavenly father is right (please keep that in mind as you read what follows). Your next comment, however, leads to my point.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. Basically, the point being made is that you should live by faith. If you ask for a sign and receive it, you have now nullified faith. You now know.

How many LDS do you know that claim to KNOW because they have been answered by the Holy Ghost when they asked for a sign from God? They have nullified their faith. This is exactly what the Bible was talking about.

If this is the basic misunderstanding, let me clarify: seeking guidance, and answers to prayers, is not seeking signs - we are commanded to pray, and promised that if we seek for direction, we will find it. This is not seeking signs, this is seeking direction. However, in the context of seeking signs, when the Lord was being tempted by Satan, and Satan told him to cast himself off of the temple, and if He really was who He said He was, then angels would catch Him - the Lord's response was, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" - right (Matt. 4:7). Testing God, saying anything to the point of, "Well, if it is all real, show me a sign, something I can see with my own eyes, touch with my own hands etc., and I will believe!" That is wrong, and we are directly commanded against it.

If I were sincerely asking for a sign from God and He sent a lightning bolt, thereby proving to me that He exists, how is that any different?

This is something that I have requested many times. I need something more than the whispering of the spirit. I certainly don't know how to tell if it is my own feelings or something external. I'm not demanding exactly what God should give to me, just something more. God supposedly knows me better than I know myself, so He should know that 1) I can't trust the feelings of the spirit and 2) what that something more is that I could trust. Is this sign seeking in your eyes? After all, I am doing it in the spirit of knowing, not contention. I am often called wicked for demanding that God do things my way rather than His way. I say that I am merely trying to be true to myself. I know myself and I know that I can't accept feelings of the spirit, therefore I need more.

This might be overly personal to ask on a forum such as this, so if this is inappropriate, please forgive me. What is driving you to 'need' something more than the Holy Ghost? Is your concern directly related to being able to differentiate between your own feelings, and the feelings that come via the Spirit of God? When you say you need something more, are you saying you, personally, need something more than just a feeling? That you need something more than just a warm fuzzy or something? :-)

If that is the case, welcome to the party pal :-) Never, in recorded history, has a true prophet of God asked for blind obedience - never - because that is not how God works. From the time God first revealed himself to Adam (if the Bible is to be believed), God has used the same pattern:

1 - God reveals Himself to man and calls prophets

2 - God presents truths to those prophets

3 - The prophets spread the message/truths of God and literally they beg/ask/command people to get in line with the truths of God.

4 - And man does what at this point?? They exercise faith, they do their best to live what has been presented by the prophets, and then they call upon God and ask if what they have been told is from God, and if it is right and true.

It is that last step that is (obviously) the trickiest. What if we aren't sure? What if we don't know what we feel? What if we can't see if God has given us direction? I for one do NOT want to choose the wrong path and end up jumping feet first into the proverbial deep-end of hell. If this is your concern, that before making that leap, you really need to be certain, I can only tell you what I know worked for me and hope that you can have the courage to do something similar.

When it comes down to it, miracles don't convert - the bible is full of examples of that, from the Old to the New testament (parting of the Red Sea anyone? Pillar of clouds during the day, a pillar of fire at night? loaves and fishes? Lazarus?). The Book of Mormon as well shows that miracles, showing forth the power, existence, love, anger, etc., of God, do not convert people to the right path - it has to be a choice. So, if we can see that miracles/signs/proof do not convert, what can? Well, I tell you that I know for myself that Joseph Smith is in fact a prophet of God due to the following experience: I was in the MTC, going on a mission, and having serious doubts. I was unsure, angry, a little pissed off. I didn't feel what the other missionaries felt, I didn't have the same conviction that so many others had - in fact, I was doubting why I was even there. Finally, in prayer, I asked for something, anything to convince me that I was doing the right thing, and that I should stay - and wouldn't you know it? Nothing happend. Nothing at all. I went to sleep angry, scared, and depressed. The next day, I was in a discussion in one of the classes, trying to decide if I should just go home, and we started talking about Joseph Smith - in particular, about the first vision. I was then asked to recite the first vision as written by Joseph. when I said the words, "I saw a pillar of light" I felt, and this is the only way to describe it, the heavens open, and the love of God fill me from head to toe and I knew that what I was saying was true - it did happen, just as Joseph said it did. God and Christ appeared to him. (as I am writing this, I am remembering that feeling, and I feel a little bit of it now). That feeling is unmistakable. It is not like anything else you will experience - when God reveals the truth to you, you will know. I didn't see anything, I didn't hear anything, but I FELT it - and I KNEW it, and I still know today because of it.

I understand not wanting to make a decision as big and important as which faith to follow - which baptism to receive, whose teachings to adhere to based on some fleeting emotion - but the feelings present when the Holy Ghost testifies to you of the truth of God is unmistakable.

As a parent, do you teach all of your children the exact same way? Or do some respond better to different forms of teaching than others?

If you seek after the truth - truly seek, you will find, and God will tell you in the way you need.

If I might make a suggestion - it has been my experience that revelation from God comes in the act of doing - not just sitting on the sidelines waiting for some bolt of lightning. Go to church on Sundays at your local LDS meeting house. Sit on the front row, listen, actually listen, to what people are saying. Take part in the discussions in Sunday School and in Priesthood, meet with the missionaries and ask them your questions, and then really listen to their answers, and see what feelings you have - do this for a month and just experiment - When you feel the Power of the Holy Ghost, it is unlike anything else - don't be concerned that you will in any way be able to confuse it with any other feeling - it is powerful, and unique, and manifests itself in a way best suited for that child - as the two disciples on the road said, "...did our hearts not burn within us...?" Seek after that burning - go to church, seek for the spirit. You won't get it confused with just some 'emotions'

Skenderbeg

[Sethbag]

Your post is plain ridiculous; Live the teachings and you will know, whether they are of man Or God.

No, this post is plain ridiculous.

What are the Jehovah's Witnesses to think, who "live the teachings" and seem to get along just great, are happy, and enjoy a strong community with their fellow believers? Is that proof that Jehovah's Witnesses are God's true church? What of the Buddhist monks in the temples over in Asia? They "live the teachings" and think it's the best thing since sliced bread (assuming they've actually had sliced bread - who knows). Does that mean Buddhism is God's true faith on Earth?

There are a great many people living the teachings of whatever religion they belong to, and doing well, and who are happy and experience joy in so doing. That doesn't mean their beliefs are true.

If you have the time to post nonsense, then you should have the time to live according to the scriptures and its living principles, and then prove to yourself whether they have power or not. You are searching whether you are consciously aware of it or not, your position wreaks of a lack of stillness in your life.

Have you ever heard the phrase "this works for me"? Your saying that "living the teachings" and seeing how it works out amounts to some kind of proof that the teachings are tantamount to saying "hey, I live the teachings, and it works for me".

Other than that, keep up the good work, you are proving the prophecy of They will call good evil, and evil good.

son

If I predict the sorts of statements you are going to make, and then "prophecy" that you will make these statements, and you do, does that mean I'm a real prophet?

The whole point of my posts in this thread, at least originally, was to point out how ridiculous it is to claim that it is a bad thing for people to expect some kind of evidence to back up extraordinary claims. People do it in their lives every single day, for Heaven's sake. But for some reason, although you wouldn't dream of hiring an accountant to do your taxes without some kind of evidence that he or she is competent, honest, and able to do a proper job, you feel it's fine to commit your mind, your time, talents, and 10% of your gross income for the rest of your life, to a religion backed up by no more evidence than a good feeling or emotional response to a pitch delivered by a pair of 19 year old boys from Idaho?

[skenderbeg]

The passage in Matt is saying that we should live by faith, and that those seeking a sign are trying to supplant faith with knowledge. When Mormons are taught to pray to get a sure witness, they are, in essence, seeking a sign that will supplant that faith as well. They want, and claim, to know. They are no longer living by faith.

Scottie,

Knowledge and Faith don't contradict each other - and those who are seeking for knowledge aren't necessarily trying to 'supplant faith with knowledge'. Even though I can tell you, 100% that I know God lives, I still pray for faith every day that I keep His commandments, that I will not break my covenants, and that I will be faithful.

Knowledge grows out of having faith. In the lectures on faith, Joseph Smith explained it rather well. We hear the message of God, and we have hope that it might, just might, be true - we 'exercise our faith' and are obedient to what God has said - and low and behold, we are blessed (we receive a testimony, we are blessed with health, happiness, we receive answers to prayers) and we now know that what God said, in that instance, is true - so hopefully, this gives us hope that, well, if the previous thing was right, what about the next thing, and we now can exercise a little more faith, based on the knowledge we have now been blessed with, that grew out of faith - a picture might look like this:

faith

------

knowledge

------

faith

- with faith as the foundation, knowledge of the goodness, nature, and love of God growing out of it, and giving us a foundation upon which more faith can be placed.

Knowledge doesn't supplant nor does it replace faith - it is a gift of Faith.

Christ said:

This is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God...

I can tell you that I know that Christ lives, but that doesn't supplant nor replace my faith in Him, it DOES however, provide a foundation for me to develop more faith in him. The cycle of faith helping to generate and produce knowledge, providing our frail spirits with a broader foundation for faith, is AMAZING - and is one of the single greatest gifts of God.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I can agree with you that the whole "oh ya, if there is a God then I want him to send me a million dollars tomorrow in the mail" kind of sign seeking is silly and insincere.

But that wasn't really my point. Perhaps I missed where you addressed it, but I'll reiterate it again.

The passage in Matt is saying that we should live by faith, and that those seeking a sign are trying to supplant faith with knowledge. When Mormons are taught to pray to get a sure witness, they are, in essence, seeking a sign that will supplant that faith as well. They want, and claim, to know. They are no longer living by faith.

Also, why is "adulterous" always put with wicked?? Can't you just be wicked without be adulterous? Is that sort of like "sick and tired"? You can't just be sick or tired, you always have to be both??

Now from discussing this I remember the missing ingredient to the situation: not only sincerity, but also a little work, as mentioned in the SWK quote above. See D&C 9 for the answer to your question.

By the way, skenderbeg, excellent posts.

And here comes sethbag with his age-old argument: Your spiritual experiences don't mean anything because people who aren't Mormon say they experience the same things, and so you are all dilusional together, yes, it is the effect of a frenzied mind, for no man can know...etc.

You know, SB, you ought to just make one main thread dealing with your assertion that spiritual experiences happen for the Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists, etc. and then just provide a link to that thread everytime you make that argument, because it would save you a lot of time.

(parenthetically I've spoken with dozens of JW's and never once heard them explain a spiritual witness from God; but rather they often say they have seen it "proven" in the scriptures. An interesting piece of this initial quoestion of the thread.)

[Sethbag]

Life On a Plate: specifically with reference to the idea of "living the teachings" and letting the results stand as proof or disproof of whether the teachings are true, how would you say the Jehovah's Witnesses fair who actually live the teachings? Would you agree, or disagree, that there are a lot of happy Jehovah's Witnesses who live their religion to the hilt, and who experience joy, fellowship within within their community, etc? If they do live their religion, and experience joy, satisfaction, and a strong and meaningful sense of fellowship within their community, would you agree that this proves that the Jehovah's Witnesses are God's true church on earth?

You've obviously missed the whole point, which is why I keep coming back with these ideas. Spiritual witnesses, "living the teachings", etc. are all various methods espoused by LDS for "proving" to yourself that the teachings are true. My whole point is that if other people, in churches that the LDS church would regard as not true, experience the same kinds of results to these "tests" that LDS people do, what does that tell you about the ability of these tests to credibly, and reliably, differentiate between God's Own Truth and the error of man?

I'm serious about this, and I'm asking you to answer this question specifically. If you go to a Buddhist monestary in Japan or whatever, and find the monks there, living their religion to the hilt, to be happy, joyful, enjoying strong fellowship within their community, etc., would they be justified in referring to these results as proof that their chosen religion is the true religion of God on Earth?

[blueadept]

Now from discussing this I remember the missing ingredient to the situation: not only sincerity, but also a little work, as mentioned in the SWK quote above. See D&C 9 for the answer to your question.

By the way, skenderbeg, excellent posts.

And here comes sethbag with his age-old argument: Your spiritual experiences don't mean anything because people who aren't Mormon say they experience the same things, and so you are all dilusional together, yes, it is the effect of a frenzied mind, for no man can know...etc.

You know, SB, you ought to just make one main thread dealing with your assertion that spiritual experiences happen for the Jehovah's Witnesses, Buddhists, etc. and then just provide a link to that thread everytime you make that argument, because it would save you a lot of time.

(parenthetically I've spoken with dozens of JW's and never once heard them explain a spiritual witness from God; but rather they often say they have seen it "proven" in the scriptures. An interesting piece of this initial quoestion of the thread.)

I've given my testimony of Christ in my life as a Catholic many times in showing love in my callings with teaching youth, visiting shut-ins, the elderly and donating my time, talents and money. For whatever reason, they believe I don't possess the full truth and that I still need pray about the BoM and JS being a prophet. Obviously I have issues with JS in particular so praying about if Mormonism is all true with the 'elephant in the room' seems ludicrous to me. It seems I get accused of being unreasonable for wanting a little more of a 'sign or proof' when I already experience Christ in my daily life.

Oh well.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Life On a Plate: specifically with reference to the idea of "living the teachings" and letting the results stand as proof or disproof of whether the teachings are true, how would you say the Jehovah's Witnesses fair who actually live the teachings? Would you agree, or disagree, that there are a lot of happy Jehovah's Witnesses who live their religion to the hilt, and who experience joy, fellowship within within their community, etc? If they do live their religion, and experience joy, satisfaction, and a strong and meaningful sense of fellowship within their community, would you agree that this proves that the Jehovah's Witnesses are God's true church on earth?

You've obviously missed the whole point, which is why I keep coming back with these ideas. Spiritual witnesses, "living the teachings", etc. are all various methods espoused by LDS for "proving" to yourself that the teachings are true. My whole point is that if other people, in churches that the LDS church would regard as not true, experience the same kinds of results to these "tests" that LDS people do, what does that tell you about the ability of these tests to credibly, and reliably, differentiate between God's Own Truth and the error of man?

I'm serious about this, and I'm asking you to answer this question specifically. If you go to a Buddhist monestary in Japan or whatever, and find the monks there, living their religion to the hilt, to be happy, joyful, enjoying strong fellowship within their community, etc., would they be justified in referring to these results as proof that their chosen religion is the true religion of God on Earth?

If they live according to the light and knowledge they have, God sends his blessings to the just and unjust. If those religions contain correct principles [which they undoubtedly do,] why would God withold the promised blessings? Just because they aren't members of the Church? God is no respector of persons, he'll bless anyone who walks in accordance with the laws upon which all blessings are predicated, black or white, bond or free, male or female, Jehovah's Witness or Mormon.

Does this confirmation turn these individulas off to joining the LDS Church? Sometimes it might.

The deal is, SB, I can't vouch for anyone elses spiritual experiences or relationship with God. I can observe it in my life. I can accept truth no matter where it comes from and not feel threatened that spiritual experiences can and do happen for people who aren't of my faith. God will bless them to the extent that he possibly can. Some people will be so disposed to follow the light that they are given that they find themselves looking for more and finding it in the LDS Church. Others feel they are good in their sphere and might even fulfill Gods purposes by being there, [as the posty by blueadept points out.] Depending onm the light they are given, the light they understand, and the extent they follow it, their own status before God is determined by Him.

I know you must be sincere in this criticism, you seem to bring it up often; but I am secure in my faith enough to not be threatened by other spiritual experiences. Can't you accept that as a valid answer?

Certainly I desire to learn more about God, I know many things God has revealed but I don't know all things God has revealed. I've studied different religions, different cultures, I have sought God in prayer and believe I have found Him most adequately in the Church of Jesus Christ. More of His truths have been communicated to me through that medium than any other place.

If that doesn't work for you in your life, that's fine; I hope I can be tolerant and not mock you in your choices, or keep bringing up the same points to try and prove you wrong or tear down faith, which, frankly, I often feel like you are attempting to do here, and sometimes I get caught up in it, too. You do seem to be an example of one leaving the Church but not leaving it alone. That's your choice, but I ask you to stop trying to degrade my personal spiritual experiences based on the fact that people outside the church can have spiritual experiences as well.

ALSO there is the point that some people may be decieved in some of their beliefs, and even feel inspired in those misconceptions. You may bring that up, as you have before, but I have to say in the eyes of faith, eyes which you think are deluded to begin with, not many of God's revelations are perfect. Does that mean God isn't perfect? Not at all. How can God's revelations be perfect? How do you teach math to a 2 year old? they aren't ready for it, so you let them grow, you lead them as best you can until they are ready. God will adapt himself to the capacity of the person he is speaking to.

Even though in this life, our current language can't even express God's ultimate truths to their perfection, we can get a good understanding, and as God seeks to save and bless as many as He can, so he may use institutions to bring about His purposes- even ones that aren't the LDS Church. That's just the way it is, that's the truth. If you choose not to accept that, fine; but I don't appreciate my spiritual experiences being judged as nothing at all because other people have differing beliefs or their own spiritual experiences. I don't appreciate jokes about "Flying Spagetti Monsters" when I am trying to have a legitimate discussion about God; it is ridiculous to bring it up, seeing as how neither of us believe in a FSM.

Ultimate truth falls in line with what I believe. I'm not always right, but I honestly try, God knows I do, and that is the way I will live my life. I have a lot more to say on the subject, but I think this will suffice. Your 'always-negative' tone is seriously a draining influence, and I can plainly discern it from the enlightening influence of The Holy Ghost. Your comments drain me, they bring darkness. I don't like it, and I hope I never will. I'm not trying to judge you as a bad person, but I will say sometimes your words are destructive, and dark.

I hope this sheds some light on the subject.

[Scottie]

I can only agree with the desire to want 'true knowledge'.

This is a misunderstanding of what I am saying. Seeking after signs is wrong - seeking after direction from Heavenly father is right (please keep that in mind as you read what follows). Your next comment, however, leads to my point.

If this is the basic misunderstanding, let me clarify: seeking guidance, and answers to prayers, is not seeking signs - we are commanded to pray, and promised that if we seek for direction, we will find it. This is not seeking signs, this is seeking direction. However, in the context of seeking signs, when the Lord was being tempted by Satan, and Satan told him to cast himself off of the temple, and if He really was who He said He was, then angels would catch Him - the Lord's response was, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" - right (Matt. 4:7). Testing God, saying anything to the point of, "Well, if it is all real, show me a sign, something I can see with my own eyes, touch with my own hands etc., and I will believe!" That is wrong, and we are directly commanded against it.

This might be overly personal to ask on a forum such as this, so if this is inappropriate, please forgive me. What is driving you to 'need' something more than the Holy Ghost? Is your concern directly related to being able to differentiate between your own feelings, and the feelings that come via the Spirit of God? When you say you need something more, are you saying you, personally, need something more than just a feeling? That you need something more than just a warm fuzzy or something? :-)

If that is the case, welcome to the party pal :-) Never, in recorded history, has a true prophet of God asked for blind obedience - never - because that is not how God works. From the time God first revealed himself to Adam (if the Bible is to be believed), God has used the same pattern:

1 - God reveals Himself to man and calls prophets

2 - God presents truths to those prophets

3 - The prophets spread the message/truths of God and literally they beg/ask/command people to get in line with the truths of God.

4 - And man does what at this point?? They exercise faith, they do their best to live what has been presented by the prophets, and then they call upon God and ask if what they have been told is from God, and if it is right and true.

It is that last step that is (obviously) the trickiest. What if we aren't sure? What if we don't know what we feel? What if we can't see if God has given us direction? I for one do NOT want to choose the wrong path and end up jumping feet first into the proverbial deep-end of hell. If this is your concern, that before making that leap, you really need to be certain, I can only tell you what I know worked for me and hope that you can have the courage to do something similar.

When it comes down to it, miracles don't convert - the bible is full of examples of that, from the Old to the New testament (parting of the Red Sea anyone? Pillar of clouds during the day, a pillar of fire at night? loaves and fishes? Lazarus?). The Book of Mormon as well shows that miracles, showing forth the power, existence, love, anger, etc., of God, do not convert people to the right path - it has to be a choice. So, if we can see that miracles/signs/proof do not convert, what can? Well, I tell you that I know for myself that Joseph Smith is in fact a prophet of God due to the following experience: I was in the MTC, going on a mission, and having serious doubts. I was unsure, angry, a little pissed off. I didn't feel what the other missionaries felt, I didn't have the same conviction that so many others had - in fact, I was doubting why I was even there. Finally, in prayer, I asked for something, anything to convince me that I was doing the right thing, and that I should stay - and wouldn't you know it? Nothing happend. Nothing at all. I went to sleep angry, scared, and depressed. The next day, I was in a discussion in one of the classes, trying to decide if I should just go home, and we started talking about Joseph Smith - in particular, about the first vision. I was then asked to recite the first vision as written by Joseph. when I said the words, "I saw a pillar of light" I felt, and this is the only way to describe it, the heavens open, and the love of God fill me from head to toe and I knew that what I was saying was true - it did happen, just as Joseph said it did. God and Christ appeared to him. (as I am writing this, I am remembering that feeling, and I feel a little bit of it now). That feeling is unmistakable. It is not like anything else you will experience - when God reveals the truth to you, you will know. I didn't see anything, I didn't hear anything, but I FELT it - and I KNEW it, and I still know today because of it.

I understand not wanting to make a decision as big and important as which faith to follow - which baptism to receive, whose teachings to adhere to based on some fleeting emotion - but the feelings present when the Holy Ghost testifies to you of the truth of God is unmistakable.

If you seek after the truth - truly seek, you will find, and God will tell you in the way you need.

If I might make a suggestion - it has been my experience that revelation from God comes in the act of doing - not just sitting on the sidelines waiting for some bolt of lightning. Go to church on Sundays at your local LDS meeting house. Sit on the front row, listen, actually listen, to what people are saying. Take part in the discussions in Sunday School and in Priesthood, meet with the missionaries and ask them your questions, and then really listen to their answers, and see what feelings you have - do this for a month and just experiment - When you feel the Power of the Holy Ghost, it is unlike anything else - don't be concerned that you will in any way be able to confuse it with any other feeling - it is powerful, and unique, and manifests itself in a way best suited for that child - as the two disciples on the road said, "...did our hearts not burn within us...?" Seek after that burning - go to church, seek for the spirit. You won't get it confused with just some 'emotions'

Skenderbeg

Thanks for your concern. I really appreciate it.

The reason I can't trust in the spirit is that so many others from different faiths have had the exact same experiences that you had in the MTC. They will look you in the eye and tell you that because of that spiritual experience, they KNOW that their church is true! This is why I say I need something more. I don't know what that something more is. I'm sure God does though, and if He really exists (which at this point I highly doubt) then He will give it to me in His due time.

I'm not saying I haven't felt a feeling that could be classified as the spirit. I have. So have billions of others.

As for your challenge, I've done all that and more, and for a LOT longer than 1 month. I still don't have anything like you describe.

[Hammer]

So, the following thought occurred to me the other night while watching an evangelical show on cable this last Friday called "The Heart of the Matter" here in Salt Lake City. This is an Anti-Mormon show designed to spread the 'truth' about Mormons, etc., and the need for Mormon's to 'prove' that the Church is true. I can't tell you number of times that I have heard from my Protestant friends, "Prove it to me!", "Prove that Joseph Smith saw an Angel!", "Prove that he didn't make up the Book of Mormon.", etc., etc.

So, as I was listening to this guy say, "Show me proof and I will believe!", the following scripture (Matthew 16:4) popped into my head.

So, in todays 'scientific' and 'logical' world, would it be comparable to say that those whom seek after proof are, in a way, seeking after signs? Something incontrovertible?

It just seems to me that those who state that they will not believe until every last item, question, and concern can be answered and proven, they will not, and cannot, believe. Sounds very, very close to 'seeking after signs' to me. I just get the feeling that in todays world, a desire for heavenly signs has been supplanted with a desire or need for worldly proof.

Please don't get me wrong, I whole heartedly believe that studying the evidence to support a hypothesis is necessary for better understanding. As a classically trained scientist, I firmly support the idea of constantly seeking for knowledge and truth. However, those people who clamor for 'proof' sound an awful lot like those who, in the scriptures, clamored for a 'sign' - the comparison is just too close for me.

Maybe I'm just thinking out loud. What do you guys think?

Considering the spirit of contention they port, I believe they are among the same kind of people as found in the Book of Mormon.

Show me a sign

It would be an atrosity of mamoth perportions if all of those who made this declaration were given the same treatment. I mean a whole generation of apostates would dwindle. But opposition is necessary and we do not have to play to the rogue audiences.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Thanks for your concern. I really appreciate it.

The reason I can't trust in the spirit is that so many others from different faiths have had the exact same experiences that you had in the MTC. They will look you in the eye and tell you that because of that spiritual experience, they KNOW that their church is true! This is why I say I need something more. I don't know what that something more is. I'm sure God does though, and if He really exists (which at this point I highly doubt) then He will give it to me in His due time.

I'm not saying I haven't felt a feeling that could be classified as the spirit. I have. So have billions of others.

As for your challenge, I've done all that and more, and for a LOT longer than 1 month. I still don't have anything like you describe.

I semi-addressed this point in my long post to SB. And a parenthetical comment is I haven't had anyone that I can remember tell me they have had a similar experience of a witness of the spirit as skender explained. I've talked to a lot of religious and non-religious people, and have yet to hear it explained in any similar terms. That isn't to say it hasn't happened, but I do see a difference.

[skenderbeg]

Thanks for your concern. I really appreciate it.

The reason I can't trust in the spirit is that so many others from different faiths have had the exact same experiences that you had in the MTC. They will look you in the eye and tell you that because of that spiritual experience, they KNOW that their church is true! This is why I say I need something more. I don't know what that something more is. I'm sure God does though, and if He really exists (which at this point I highly doubt) then He will give it to me in His due time.

I'm not saying I haven't felt a feeling that could be classified as the spirit. I have. So have billions of others.

As for your challenge, I've done all that and more, and for a LOT longer than 1 month. I still don't have anything like you describe.

Scottie -

As I have no other experiences that I can honestly and truthfully reference, other than my own simple experiences, I regret that the answers you seek haven't been granted to you as quickly as they were given to me.

On that note, if I could ask a few more questions (only in the spirit of 'trying to help' - if I am stepping outside my bounds, or if you are uncomfortable with me asking the following questions in such a public forum, I understand, and I apologize in advance):

What is it you are seeking?

What is it you are looking for? You stated above that you need something more, but aren't exactly sure what that would be - would you care to expound a little? Maybe spell out what the end result of whatever that 'something more' would do for you?

What is your end goal in not only taking part in discussions on this board, but in your 'spiritual life' in general? What is it you really want out of all of this?

As far as other persons having 'spiritual experiences' and 'knowing that their church is the true...' as others in this thread have stated, according to the light and knowledge given to men, their lives can be rather full - people can experience spiritual manifestations, they can feel love, direction, spiritual guidance - many manifestations of the spirit. So where do the 'Mormons' and the whole 'answers to prayers' fit in that scale? The Church of Jesus Christ, in all dispensations, has not had an exclusive hold on 'spiritual manifestations' - you don't have to be a baptized member of God's Kingdom to feel the influence or direction of the Holy Ghost - that is, in fact, the entire purpose of missionary work - to introduce people outside of the Kingdom of God to that spirit, or to help bring 'further light and knowledge' to those who have already received other portions of God's teachings.

So then, what is the difference between when Mormon's say, "I know" and when anyone else says, "I know" (and take this as my paradigm, not as any official doctrine). I lived for 18 months in Albania, among Muslims, Catholics, and Greek Orthodox. I spent another 5 months living among Catholics in Italy. I spoke to many people who believed, who 'knew' that Islam was Allah's true faith - that Catholicism was Christ's true faith - and without fail (please, no one take offense to this, this is just what happened) - when those persons humbly prayed and listened/felt/heard the spirit of God testify to them that what we were saying was true, they new that we represented Christ (and thus God) and the fullness of Their Gospel. I don't know how to say it any other way - it sounds lame to say that the Gospel is 'the truest' of all the 'gospels' that are being taught today, but that is, in my own badly-written words, what it comes down to. One individual experience stands out the most today - an elderly gentleman named Edip Ohri had been imprisoned for 35 years in Albania when he stood up against the communist leader - he was imprisoned with any/all those who had also stood up - including every single religious leader who had not fled the country at approx. 1955. After 35 years in prison, he was released when the communist regime fell, and my mission companion and I met him going door to door - we me with him for about an hour a day, for a week, and he said to us, "Boys, (he was 82 at the time) I spent the last 30 years in prison listening to religious leaders debate and discuss, on a daily basis, the nature of God - and I have felt more right about what you have said in the past week, than I have in the past 30 years."

Take it or leave it, that was his experience. There is truth and good in all religions - or very, very few would seek them out, and desire to live by any religious precepts. Scottie, don't quit on this, keep seeking, keep talking with those who really want to support you, and you will find it - I really don't know how else to say it.

[Scottie]

Scottie -

As I have no other experiences that I can honestly and truthfully reference, other than my own simple experiences, I regret that the answers you seek haven't been granted to you as quickly as they were given to me.

On that note, if I could ask a few more questions (only in the spirit of 'trying to help' - if I am stepping outside my bounds, or if you are uncomfortable with me asking the following questions in such a public forum, I understand, and I apologize in advance):

I've spoken about this all before on here, so I have no problem discussing it publicly.

What is it you are seeking?

An answer to Moroni's promise. Believe me, my life would be SOOO much simpler if I could believe.

What is it you are looking for? You stated above that you need something more, but aren't exactly sure what that would be - would you care to expound a little? Maybe spell out what the end result of whatever that 'something more' would do for you?

Like I said, supposedly God knows me better than I know myself. I honestly don't know what the "something" is that would make me believe. Maybe it would be some kind of amazing spiritual experience that would be so much greater than anything I'd ever felt before. Maybe it would be a near death experience. I just don't know. But I DO know that it has to be more than the warm fuzzy/still small voice.

What is your end goal in not only taking part in discussions on this board, but in your 'spiritual life' in general? What is it you really want out of all of this?

Well, as far as the message board, I feel a sense of community here. I enjoy debate. I feel like I am still on a journey and participating in this forum helps me solidify thoughts.

As far as other persons having 'spiritual experiences' and 'knowing that their church is the true...' as others in this thread have stated, according to the light and knowledge given to men, their lives can be rather full - people can experience spiritual manifestations, they can feel love, direction, spiritual guidance - many manifestations of the spirit. So where do the 'Mormons' and the whole 'answers to prayers' fit in that scale? The Church of Jesus Christ, in all dispensations, has not had an exclusive hold on 'spiritual manifestations' - you don't have to be a baptized member of God's Kingdom to feel the influence or direction of the Holy Ghost - that is, in fact, the entire purpose of missionary work - to introduce people outside of the Kingdom of God to that spirit, or to help bring 'further light and knowledge' to those who have already received other portions of God's teachings.

Yes, I hear this all the time. It is right out of apologetics 101. I don't buy it. If God is a God or order, He would not be sending such mixed signals all over the place.

So then, what is the difference between when Mormon's say, "I know" and when anyone else says, "I know" (and take this as my paradigm, not as any official doctrine). I lived for 18 months in Albania, among Muslims, Catholics, and Greek Orthodox. I spent another 5 months living among Catholics in Italy. I spoke to many people who believed, who 'knew' that Islam was Allah's true faith - that Catholicism was Christ's true faith - and without fail (please, no one take offense to this, this is just what happened) - when those persons humbly prayed and listened/felt/heard the spirit of God testify to them that what we were saying was true, they new that we represented Christ (and thus God) and the fullness of Their Gospel. I don't know how to say it any other way - it sounds lame to say that the Gospel is 'the truest' of all the 'gospels' that are being taught today, but that is, in my own badly-written words, what it comes down to. One individual experience stands out the most today - an elderly gentleman named Edip Ohri had been imprisoned for 35 years in Albania when he stood up against the communist leader - he was imprisoned with any/all those who had also stood up - including every single religious leader who had not fled the country at approx. 1955. After 35 years in prison, he was released when the communist regime fell, and my mission companion and I met him going door to door - we me with him for about an hour a day, for a week, and he said to us, "Boys, (he was 82 at the time) I spent the last 30 years in prison listening to religious leaders debate and discuss, on a daily basis, the nature of God - and I have felt more right about what you have said in the past week, than I have in the past 30 years."

Take it or leave it, that was his experience. There is truth and good in all religions - or very, very few would seek them out, and desire to live by any religious precepts. Scottie, don't quit on this, keep seeking, keep talking with those who really want to support you, and you will find it - I really don't know how else to say it.

I know there are a few that feel compelled to convert to the LDS church, but you have to admit that the global conversion rates are abysmal. There are other religions that are blowing the LDS conversion rate out of the water.

I appreciate your concern. I am on a journey. Quite honestly, it would take one amazing witness for me to put all the evidences that have led me to believe the church is false on the shelf. But, if God exists as Mormon doctrine says He does, nothing is impossible for Him and He will find a way to convert me back.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I've spoken about this all before on here, so I have no problem discussing it publicly.

An answer to Moroni's promise. Believe me, my life would be SOOO much simpler if I could believe.

Like I said, supposedly God knows me better than I know myself. I honestly don't know what the "something" is that would make me believe. Maybe it would be some kind of amazing spiritual experience that would be so much greater than anything I'd ever felt before. Maybe it would be a near death experience. I just don't know. But I DO know that it has to be more than the warm fuzzy/still small voice.

Well, as far as the message board, I feel a sense of community here. I enjoy debate. I feel like I am still on a journey and participating in this forum helps me solidify thoughts.

Yes, I hear this all the time. It is right out of apologetics 101. I don't buy it. If God is a God or order, He would not be sending such mixed signals all over the place.

I know there are a few that feel compelled to convert to the LDS church, but you have to admit that the global conversion rates are abysmal. There are other religions that are blowing the LDS conversion rate out of the water.

I appreciate your concern. I am on a journey. Quite honestly, it would take one amazing witness for me to put all the evidences that have led me to believe the church is false on the shelf. But, if God exists as Mormon doctrine says He does, nothing is impossible for Him and He will find a way to convert me back.

Changing you, or saving you, without your consent is one miracle God cannot, or will not perform.

"Straight is the gate, and narrow the way, and few there be that find it..."

[Scottie]

Changing you, or saving you, without your consent is one miracle God cannot, or will not perform.

Yet stories abound where people have miraculous conversions when they weren't seeking it at all....

[Dan Vogel]

So, the following thought occurred to me the other night while watching an evangelical show on cable this last Friday called "The Heart of the Matter" here in Salt Lake City. This is an Anti-Mormon show designed to spread the 'truth' about Mormons, etc., and the need for Mormon's to 'prove' that the Church is true. I can't tell you number of times that I have heard from my Protestant friends, "Prove it to me!", "Prove that Joseph Smith saw an Angel!", "Prove that he didn't make up the Book of Mormon.", etc., etc.

So, as I was listening to this guy say, "Show me proof and I will believe!", the following scripture (Matthew 16:4) popped into my head.

So, in todays 'scientific' and 'logical' world, would it be comparable to say that those whom seek after proof are, in a way, seeking after signs? Something incontrovertible?

It just seems to me that those who state that they will not believe until every last item, question, and concern can be answered and proven, they will not, and cannot, believe. Sounds very, very close to 'seeking after signs' to me. I just get the feeling that in todays world, a desire for heavenly signs has been supplanted with a desire or need for worldly proof.

Please don't get me wrong, I whole heartedly believe that studying the evidence to support a hypothesis is necessary for better understanding. As a classically trained scientist, I firmly support the idea of constantly seeking for knowledge and truth. However, those people who clamor for 'proof' sound an awful lot like those who, in the scriptures, clamored for a 'sign' - the comparison is just too close for me.

Maybe I'm just thinking out loud. What do you guys think?

By your definition, isn't praying for a witness seeking a sign? Doesn't the scripture refer to those who want miracles to verify religious claims, rather than those who seek historical for historical claims?

[skenderbeg]

An answer to Moroni's promise. Believe me, my life would be SOOO much simpler if I could believe.

Is there any one thing holding you back? Is it a combination of things?

Like I said, supposedly God knows me better than I know myself. I honestly don't know what the "something" is that would make me believe. Maybe it would be some kind of amazing spiritual experience that would be so much greater than anything I'd ever felt before. Maybe it would be a near death experience. I just don't know. But I DO know that it has to be more than the warm fuzzy/still small voice.

Agreed, a warm fuzzy, some vague feeling, even a case of feeling light headed isn't enough to convert anyone, however, please keep the following in mind (and if this has been shared before with you, which I'm sure it has, please forgive me)

And he [the Lord] said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind and earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice -- I Kings 19: 11-12

So, don't give up on the 'still small voice', because that is in fact where and how God 'for the vast majority' of time, speaks to us - including his Old Testament prophets :-)

Well, as far as the message board, I feel a sense of community here. I enjoy debate. I feel like I am still on a journey and participating in this forum helps me solidify thoughts.

Cool, same reason I've joined up.

Yes, I hear this all the time. It is right out of apologetics 101. I don't buy it. If God is a God or order, He would not be sending such mixed signals all over the place.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this - sorry, I'm in no way a professional apologetic-ist (or whatever). I take it that this means other people have told you same thing before, and it doesn't "sit well" with you (maybe)? Well, to be honest, some things that might make sense to one person don't make sense or doesn't sit well with someone else - that's just human nature. I wish I could provide an example or an explanation that could help to make sense of this for you - unfortunately, I've told you what I seen. I could tell you that my father was on his death bed (1981, non-Hodgkin's lymphoma) when I was 3 years old. The doctors told him to get his will in order because there was nothing more they could do for him. The next day, the home teachers went to the hospital and blessed him that he would live, recover from this illness, and live a full life - 3 months later, he was in remission, is the only person left alive from his 'control group' who had the same kind of cancer as him, and he is now 70 and still going strong - accept for a bad back. I could also tell you that my brother was 5 years old, had a stick stabbed in his eye - doctors said there was no way to save the eye, that it had to be removed - morning before the surgery, home teachers came over, blessed him, that he would not need the surgery - at the pre-op 5 hours later, his eye was completely healed (excluding a small scar on his retina in the shape of an 'L') - now, let me ask you, have these 'faith promoting' experiences I have just spelled out 'convinced' you that the LDS faith is God's Kingdom on earth? Yes? Why? No? Why not? Were these miracles? Absolutely. Is it possible to 'rationalize' them away? Absolutely. Where do you stand?

I know there are a few that feel compelled to convert to the LDS church, but you have to admit that the global conversion rates are abysmal. There are other religions that are blowing the LDS conversion rate out of the water.

I wouldn't know about other religions and any 'conversion rates' - I just care that those who are honestly seeking are given the opportunity to choose to accept, or not accept, the 'fullness' of the Gospel.

I appreciate your concern. I am on a journey. Quite honestly, it would take one amazing witness for me to put all the evidences that have led me to believe the church is false on the shelf. But, if God exists as Mormon doctrine says He does, nothing is impossible for Him and He will find a way to convert me back.

On this note, I want to ask you another personal question - again, I am uncomfortable doing so in a public setting, but if you are game so am I. If you truly are seeking for that witness - and I don't know how to delicately ask this, so please forgive me if this comes across wrong - are you looking for a witness to defeat any doubts in your heart? Something so powerful that all of your understanding of the negatives of the LDS faith will pale in comparison? Or are you looking for a witness to verify that the hope you feel, that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, that Joseph Smith is in fact a prophet of God, etc., that this hope is true and right with God? I do not mean to judge when I ask, I have just found in my personal life that when I am in the second state, not the first, when I am humbly supplicating the Lord, that answers come (some sooner than later), whereas when I am, challenging (that is my word, not yours) God, I have never received so much as a wink and a nod.

[Son]

No, this post is plain ridiculous.

What are the Jehovah's Witnesses to think, who "live the teachings" and seem to get along just great, are happy, and enjoy a strong community with their fellow believers? Is that proof that Jehovah's Witnesses are God's true church? What of the Buddhist monks in the temples over in Asia? They "live the teachings" and think it's the best thing since sliced bread (assuming they've actually had sliced bread - who knows). Does that mean Buddhism is God's true faith on Earth?

Live the teachings and you will know, was said by Jesus. If a Jehovah Witness, Buddhist, or a Muslim or anyone regardless of membership or affiliation lives the teachings of Christ, they will know. THat is the promise.

God's true church is within you, it is not in memberships, or organizations, it is with anyone that lives according to the divine principles of Christ.

There are a great many people living the teachings of whatever religion they belong to, and doing well, and who are happy and experience joy in so doing. That doesn't mean their beliefs are true.

Have you ever heard the phrase "this works for me"? Your saying that "living the teachings" and seeing how it works out amounts to some kind of proof that the teachings are tantamount to saying "hey, I live the teachings, and it works for me".

Living the teachings of a church is no where near living the teachings of Christ, that lead to minute by minute instruction from the Holy Spirit directly, no filters, no man teaching you, the Spirit of God is the only One that can lead one into all truth.

If I predict the sorts of statements you are going to make, and then "prophecy" that you will make these statements, and you do, does that mean I'm a real prophet?

All are given the opportunity to Prophecy, according to the gifts of God. Ask Him if you are gifted, guessing games I believe are just games.

The whole point of my posts in this thread, at least originally, was to point out how ridiculous it is to claim that it is a bad thing for people to expect some kind of evidence to back up extraordinary claims. People do it in their lives every single day, for Heaven's sake. But for some reason, although you wouldn't dream of hiring an accountant to do your taxes without some kind of evidence that he or she is competent, honest, and able to do a proper job, you feel it's fine to commit your mind, your time, talents, and 10% of your gross income for the rest of your life, to a religion backed up by no more evidence than a good feeling or emotional response to a pitch delivered by a pair of 19 year old boys from Idaho?

Can't relate to this, I belong to no group or religion, I seek directly.