The Church Fathers?

[johnny]

e=mc2,

Yes I do believe what Jesus taught,

DO you then believe Mormon Scripture (D&C 130:3) which says that the idea that the Father can dwell in the Son is false? Jesus taught the opposite of Mormon Scripture.

The Father is a man of flesh and bones as Jesus is.

How can flesh and bones dwell in another man of flesh and bones?

On your misguided interpretation, even if the Father is literally physically IN Jesus, pray tell, is Jesus a mere spirit, or is that a body Philip is seeing?

Jesus tells us that the Father is literally in him because Jesus says the indwelling Father does the works.

Jesus is the same kind of being as His Father.

Jesus is not the same kind of being as His Father, His Father is pure spirit, spirit can dwell in a person of flesh and bones.

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

Jesus is not the same kind of being as His Father

Excuuuuuuuuse me? Pray tell, are you aware of what your own creeds teach?! Now you ARE being a heretic!

[johnny]

e=mc2,

Excuuuuuuuuse me? Pray tell, are you aware of what your own creeds teach?! Now you ARE being a heretic!

Please explain, my words are consistent with scripture and the creeds are consistent with scripture. The Son is a being of spirit and flesh. The Father is a being of spirit only. The Word became flesh.

Why is that Mormon Scripture not consistent with the words of Jesus?

Jesus said the Father dwelt in him and Mormon scripture says the Father cannot dwell in a man.

[e=mc2]

ruwach {roo'-akh}

Meaning: 1) wind, breath, mind, spirit 1a) breath 1b) wind 1b1) of heaven 1b2) quarter (of wind), side 1b3) breath of air 1b4) air, gas 1b5) vain, empty thing 1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation) 1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour 1c2) courage 1c3) temper, anger 1c4) impatience, patience 1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented) 1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse 1c7) prophetic spirit 1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals) 1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being 1e) spirit (as seat of emotion) 1e1) desire 1e2) sorrow, trouble 1f) spirit 1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts 1f2) rarely of the will 1f3) as seat especially of moral character 1g) spirit of God 1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy 1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning 1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power 1g4) as endowing men with various gifts 1g5) as energy of life 1g6) ancient angel and later Shekinah

Ruach Wind, breath, mind, spirit. This noun occurs 387 times in the OT, usually feminine. Although some derive it from rawah "be spacious, be refreshed': (1Sam 16:23; Job 32:20; Hiphil, heriah "perceive by breathing an aeriform thing, " it is best considered a primitive noun, related to an ayin -vowel root ruh, "to breathe" (BDB, p. 924); cf. reah "odor"; Ugaritic rh.

The basic idea of ruach (Gr. pneuma) is "air in motion, " from air which cannot come between a crocodile's scales (Job 41:16 [H 8]) to the blast of a storm (Isa 25:4; Hab 1:11 ASV, RSV). The "four winds, " ruhot. describe the four quarters or four directions of the world (Jer 49:36; Ezek 37:9). In living beings the ruach is their breath, whether of animals (Gen 7:15; Psa 104:25, 29), men (Isa 42:5; Ezek 37:5), or both (Gen 7:22-23); whether inhaled (Jer 2:24) or on the lips (Isa 11:4; cf. Job 9:18; contrast dead idols, Jer 10:14; Jer 51:17). God creates it: "The ruach "spirit" of God (from God) is in my nostrils" (Job 27:3).

The Greek world of Jesus had the Hebrew conception of life from the ancient Jews when using the scriptures. Ruach is not immaterial. Again, Ruach as spirit, as air, wind, breath is not immaterial. You are being deceived by pagan Greek philosophy being added to your interpretations of the Hebrew scriptures. The Jews did not understand ruach, the wind, air, spirit as immaterial.

The Greek term for spirit is pneuma {pnyoo'-mah}

Meaning: 1) a movement of air (a gentle blast 1a) of the wind, hence the wind itself 1b) breath of nostrils or mouth 2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated 2a) the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides 2b) the soul 3) a spirit, i.e. a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, [NOTICE THIS! It does not say it is immaterial, because it isn't immaterial] and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting 3a) a life giving spirit 3b) a human soul that has left the body 3c) a spirit higher than man but lower than God, i.e. an angel 3c1) used of demons, or evil spirits, who were conceived as inhabiting the bodies of men 3c2) the spiritual nature of Christ, higher than the highest angels and equal to God, the divine nature of Christ 4) of God 4a) God's power and agency distinguishable in thought from his essence in itself considered 4a1) manifest in the course of affairs 4a2) by its influence upon the souls productive in the theocratic body (the church) of all the higher spiritual gifts and blessings 4a3) the third person of the trinity, the God the Holy Spirit 5) the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one 5a) the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.

Again the Greek pneuma is not an immaterial substance or thing, but is wholly material, as is the Hebrew ruach. Again pneuma and ruach do not equal immaterial as opposed to material.

You saying God and Christ are not the same kind of being is not what your Christian creeds teach. You are presenting the idea of spirit being the opposite of matter, whereas the scriptures in both the Hebrew and Greek do not teach this.

[ed2276]

e=mc2,

Please explain, my words are consistent with scripture and the creeds are consistent with scripture. The Son is a being of spirit and flesh. The Father is a being of spirit only. The Word became flesh.

Why is that Mormon Scripture not consistent with the words of Jesus?

Jesus said the Father dwelt in him and Mormon scripture says the Father cannot dwell in a man.

If the Father is only spirit and the Son is spirit and flesh , and the Son and Father are one and the same being but different persons , not separate beings , how can the Father also not be flesh?

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

Jesus is not the same kind of being as His Father, His Father is pure spirit, spirit can dwell in a person of flesh and bones.

And Jesus said if you see Him, you have seen the Father. What did Philip see? A man of flesh and bones, with a Divine Spirit in Him, just like His Father. I agree that Spirit can inhabit a body of flesh and bones, that is why Mormon scripture is consistent with the Bible. The Bible does NOT teach God is a PURE SPIRIT, but simply that He is spirit. We agree with this, but this is not contrasting spirit as opposite of a body. Jesus proves what kind of being God the Father is, for they are One and the Same kind of being. In fact, the creeds say they are the SAME ESSENCE. What is the essence of Jesus? a spirit inhabiting a body of flesh and bone. What Jesus is, His Father is. THAT is scripture, and what the creeds teach. They do NOT say they are different kinds of being as you so wrongly attribute to them.

Ed2276:

If the Father is only spirit and the Son is spirit and flesh , and the Son and Father are one and the same being but different persons , not separate beings , how can the Father also not be flesh?

Exactly.

[e=mc2]

The Athenasian Creed says that "we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Uinity, neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance..."

Now then Johnny, you say God is pure spirit, yet Christ is spirit with a body of flesh and bone. This is dividing the substance, according to your theology. This you are forbidden to do. You need to read your own creeds more often. I am grateful I am not stuck with their illogical strait jacket.

It further notes that "in this Trinity none is before or after the other; none is the greater or less than another; but the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal; so that in all things the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped."

In the emphasized portion, how can then, as per your contention that they are NOT the same kind of being, can there be a unity? The Son has what the Father does NOT Have, namely a body, according to your theology. How can this be though if the Creed is correct in assertin that they are co-equal and all in UNITY? They obviously are not.

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

Joseph Smith did not believe Jesus because he wrote the idea that the Father can dwell in the Son is false (D&C 130:3).

You blatantly misrepresent the Prophet's thought. He means physically, of course. The Spirit of God is throughout all things however as per D&C 88:7-16

[johnny]

e=mc2,

The Greek world of Jesus had the Hebrew conception of life from the ancient Jews when using the scriptures. Ruach is not immaterial. Again, Ruach as spirit, as air, wind, breath is not immaterial. You are being deceived by pagan Greek philosophy being added to your interpretations of the Hebrew scriptures. The Jews did not understand ruach, the wind, air, spirit as immaterial.

The Jews did not understand many things, such as who Jesus was. The early Christians understood who Jesus was and they taught what Holy Scripture reveals and that is:

- He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, all spirit (Irenaeus)

- God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual being (Origen).

[johnny]

e=mc2,

The Bible does NOT teach God is a PURE SPIRIT, but simply that He is spirit.

The Bible teaches that the Father can dwell in a spirit, only a spirit can dwell in a man.

The Bible teaches that the heavens cannot contain God, sounds like spirit.

In fact, the creeds say they are the SAME ESSENCE.

Same essence means that they are both God (divine nature).

The Son has two natures, divine nature and human nature.

The Father has one nature and that is divine nature.

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, all spirit (Irenaeus)

- God, therefore, is not to be thought of as being either a body or as existing in a body, but as a simple intellectual being (Origen).

You say this is said about Christ? Your philosophy is ruibbish. Is Christ God? That is my SOLID refutation of your philosophical inanity you present here with apostate early Christian leaders.

[johnny]

e=mc2,

Now then Johnny, you say God is pure spirit, yet Christ is spirit with a body of flesh and bone. This is dividing the substance, according to your theology.

It is not dividing the substance, both are the undivided divine nature.

This you are forbidden to do. You need to read your own creeds more often.

You need to study what the creeds are really stating ... it is obvious you do not understand the creeds.

It further notes that "in this Trinity none is before or after the other; none is the greater or less than another; but the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal; so that in all things the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped."

In other words each divine person is God whole and entire.

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

Same essence means that they are both God (divine nature).

This contradicts what you earlier said that they are different kinds of being though.

Johnny:

You need to study what the creeds are really stating ... it is obvious you do not understand the creeds.

I've quoted them showing you blatantly contradict their teaching. I have no problem understanding them.

[johnny]

e=mc2,

You blatantly misrepresent the Prophet's thought. He means physically, of course. The Spirit of God is throughout all things however as per D&C 88:7-16

Jesus DID NOT say the "the Spirit of God", he repeatedly states "the Father".

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

It is not dividing the substance, both are the undivided divine nature.

The substance of Christ consists of SPIRIT and BODY of FLESH and BONES......... You say they are of the same substance, hence the Father is what Christ is. You are obviously out of your league

[johnny]

e=mc2,

You say this is said about Christ? Your philosophy is ruibbish. Is Christ God? That is my SOLID refutation of your philosophical inanity you present here with apostate early Christian leaders.

Christ is God (John 1:1), Christ is "I AM".

This contradicts what you earlier said that they are different kinds of being though.

"Beings" in the terms of natures ... the Father has only divine nature, the Son has divine nature and human nature.

I've quoted them showing you blatantly contradict their teaching. I have no problem understanding them.

You are simply quoting them WITHOUT understanding the words and there meaning.

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

In other words each divine person is God whole and entire.

Is this because they all share the divinity and glory?

[johnny]

e=mc2,

The substance of Christ consists of SPIRIT and BODY of FLESH and BONES......... You say they are of the same substance, hence the Father is what Christ is. You are obviously out of your league

The Father is what Christ is, both have SPIRIT. In addition to SPIRIT the Son has FLESH and BONES.........

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

Christ is God (John 1:1), Christ is "I AM".

An incomplete assessment, obviously due to your embarrassment over your pagan Greek philosophical silliness concerning what God is. CHRIST IS GOD, and He has a BODY of FLESH and BONES. Your philosophy that God is spirit alone is rubbish.

[johnny]

e=mc2,

Is this because they all share the divinity and glory?

They DO NOT SHARE the divinity, the Son had the fulness of the Godhead.

e=mc2,

An incomplete assessment, obviously due to your embarrassment over your pagan Greek philosophical silliness concerning what God is. CHRIST IS GOD, and He has a BODY of FLESH and BONES. Your philosophy that God is spirit is rubbish.

My words are consistent with Holy Scripture. The Word(God) became flesh.

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

The Father is what Christ is, both have SPIRIT. In addition to SPIRIT the Son has FLESH and BONES.........

Another of your obvious incomplete assessment based on your embarrassment of rubbish pagan Greek philosophy which you think is all about truth. Not ONLY is the Father what Christ is, but Christ is exactly what the Father is. You left that part off. Why is that? Christ told Philip this truth, and you reject it, obviously.

[Jan]

e=mc2,

The Father is what Christ is, both have SPIRIT. In addition to SPIRIT the Son has FLESH and BONES.........

Where is the Son's body of flesh and bones right now?

Jan

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

My words are consistent with Holy Scripture. The Word became flesh.

My words are consistent with scripture also, the Flesh is exactly what the Father is, as per Christ's truth teaching of Philip that he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.

[johnny]

e=mc2,

Not ONLY is the Father what Christ is, but Christ is exactly what the Father is.

And that is both are divine nature.

You left that part off. Why is that? Christ told Philip this truth, and you reject it, obviously.

And Jesus told Philip the truth that the Father dwelt in him and did the work. Only spirit can dwell in a man of flesh and bones.

Jan,

Where is the Son's body of flesh and bones right now?

The Son has a glorified body, he is in heaven.

[e=mc2]

Johnny:

They DO NOT SHARE the divinity, the Son had the fulness of the Godhead.

You apostate. So the Father does not have any Divinity? There is no Godhead in the Father? This is ridiculous......