Did Lehi And His Family Speak Hebrew?

[William Schryver]

Edit: Attention Readers! I should note that, as this thread progressed, I modified my argument from that presented in this initial post. I no longer am arguing that the native language of Lehi and his family was necessarily Egyptian, I believe it may have been, but I choose for now to only argue that the language of their fathers was Egyptian, and that Lehi sought the brass plates in order to perpetuate the knowledge of Egyptian among his posterity -- that is all I believe the text allows. You may pick up the change in my argument beginning at post #23.

In another current thread, Dan Vogel is quoted as follows:

Vogel:

It is reasonable to assume that these Hebrews spoke and wrote in Hebrew. Consequently, not finding any archaeological evidence for this in Pre-Columbian America is evidence against the BOM's historicity. Arguments contradicting the expected use of Hebrew can be made, but they aren't compelling. There is no good reason to believe they would not have used their native language.

Is it reasonable to assume that Hebrew was spoken and written by Lehi and his descendants?

The word â??Hebrewâ? is mentioned in a single verse of the Book of Mormon (Mormon 9:33) written by Moroni after the destruction of the Nephites, ca. 400 A.D.:

Mormon 9

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

This single reference, written 1000 years after Lehi left Jerusalem, tells us nothing about the language spoken among the people. Why Vogel thinks it is â??reasonable to assume that these Hebrews spoke and wrote in Hebrewâ? is a mystery, since we have definitive evidence that Lehiâ??s native language was not Hebrew:

Nephi informs us:

1 Nephi 1

2 Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

What is the language of Nephi's father? The same language that Nephi is going to use to make his record. He tells us quite clearly: Lehi and his family spoke, as their primary language, some dialect of Egyptian. Hebrew was a secondary language for them.

The common assumption is that the Plates of Brass were written in Hebrew. This is false, and contradicted by the Book of Mormon itself:

Mosiah 1

3 And he also taught them concerning the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, saying: My sons, I would that ye should remember that were it not for these plates, which contain these records and these commandments, we must have suffered in ignorance, even at this present time, not knowing the mysteries of God.

4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.

So, it is clear that the native language of Lehi and his descendants was something other than Hebrew. It was some dialect of Egyptian. And, we are told, the Plates of Brass were written in the "language of the Egyptians."

Indeed, when Moroni explains the language of the record he is finishing 1000 years down the road, he specifies:

Mormon 9

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

Furthermore, he assures that:

34 But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.

It is clear that the Nephites were conscious of using a language that no one else knew.

Now, does all of this signify that the â??lingua francaâ? of Nephite civilization was Egyptian? Not necessarily. Serious students of the Book of Mormon have always argued that the Lehites did not enter into a cultural and linguistic vacuum when they set foot on the shores of the â??promised land.â? And any casual student of linguistics understands what happens when people with two different languages merge, or even live closely one to the other. The astounding evolution of the English language over the course of the last 1000 years should give us insight into what happens to language with the passage of time.

That said, what we can say with near certainty is that the text of the Book of Mormon does NOT support the assumption that Hebrew was spoken and written by the descendants of Lehi, except as, at most, a secondary language.

[Olavarria]

thats the thing, Lehi didnt know he was a mannasite, the language of his fathers was egyptian and he owned tents, which means hewas out and about. Also Sariah(princess of Yahweh?) is found at Elephantine but not in the Bible, ad that to the fact that these guys built temples outside of Jerusalem(like the jews at elephantine) and that YHH was a version of the tetragammaton found at elephantine, and that the -ihah in ammonihah and matonihah coressponds to the -yahu in ammonyhwh and mtnyhwh, and that he gave one of his sons a perfectly good egyptian name(Nephi).

Could it be that Lehi, or his fathers, was an egyptian jew that some how made his way back to Jerusalem? Maybe this is how they survived the Assyrian dispersion?

As for the Nephites speaking hebrew as their vernacular, my ancestors crossed the seas from the basque country to puerto rico hence my last name(Olavarria), yet there is nothing basque about us. I dont even know the rules to Jai Alai

[No Touch]

Good observations. And certainly there is much more in the new world that bearsappears to bear an Egyptian influence as opposed to a Israelite influence.

[DonBradley]

So Egyptian was the primary language for inhabitants of Jerusalem of the 7th-century B.C.?! The biblical scholars, archaeologists, and historians of antiquity will be so happy to know!

<Sigh>

Don

[William Schryver]

So Egyptian was the primary language for inhabitants of Jerusalem of the 7th-century B.C.?! The biblical scholars, archaeologists, and historians of antiquity will be so happy to know!

<Sigh>

Don

Don,

Who said anything about the "inhabitants of Jerusalem?" I simply quoted from the TEXT of the Book of Mormon itself those parts that tell about the language of Lehi and his family -- and the language of the Plates of Brass.

If you take exception to what the text says, then cite the error.

Edit: Don's reply is a classic example of what we face when dealing with critics who argue on the basis of their assumptions rather than from what the text of the Book of Mormon actually says. It makes you wonder if any of these people ever even read the book when they were active members.

[hagoth7]

Interesting.

With this backdrop, what do you make of the Nephite encounter with the Mulekites - with whom the Nephites were not able to converse - because whatever language the Mulekites spoke had become 'corrupted'?

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Will,

I see things a bit differently.

Is it reasonable to assume that Hebrew was spoken and written by Lehi and his descendants?

The word â??Hebrewâ? is mentioned in a single verse of the Book of Mormon (Mormon 9:33) written by Moroni after the destruction of the Nephites, ca. 400 A.D.

Indeed, however in that single verse, Moroni states that he and his father would have preferred to write in an altered Hebrew script. Why would they have preferred this technique if they were not speaking Hebrew? As Jews leaving the kingdom of Judah around 600 BCE, Lehi and his family would have spoken Hebrew as their primary dialect.

I certainly do agree, however, with the implications of the second half of your question, namely, we should not expect that many of Lehiâ??s descendants knew how to write at all, let alone in Hebrew. Based upon Near Eastern literacy rates, I believe we should take quite seriously the Book of Mormon statements that present a few of the well-educated elite â??readingâ? the scriptures to the masses, including some of the kings.

I shared some of the evidence, as I see it, here:

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/B...BoM_Mar2006.php

Hello Her Amun,

Again, I see things a bit differently.

thats the thing, Lehi didnt know he was a mannasite, the language of his fathers was egyptian and he owned tents, which means hewas out and about.

I do not agree with Nibleyâ??s portrayal of Lehi as a well-traveled nomad. Not only does this suggestion not make sense of the information presented in the text, I believe that the depiction looses some deep spiritual insights concerning the familyâ??s wiliness to sacrifice their sedentary lifestyle and accept the Lordâ??s command.

â??This last example [1 Nephi 2:4] of a word list repeating redundant grammatical information proves significant for a literary analysis of the Book of Mormon. This passage reveals Lehiâ??s original sedentary lifestyle since the third person masculine singular possessive pronoun (his) is attached to each noun in the word list with the exception of provisions and tents. This literary observation is consistent with the way in which Old Testament storytellers revealed subtle information concerning the narratives.â? David E. Bokovoy and John A. Tvedtnes, Testaments: Links Between the Book of Mormon and the Hebrew Bible, 215.

You may also wish to read the compelling arguments Tvedtnes offers for this view in The Most Correct Book: Insights From a Book of Mormon Scholar (Salt Lake City: Cornerstone, 1999), 77-78.

Best,

--DB

[The_Monk]

As far as I'm aware, neither Hebrew nor Egyptian distinguish between language and script. Thus, "language of the Egyptians" may ambiguously refer to either. I don't think this rises to the level of "concrete evidence."

What *kind* of Hebrew Lehi might have spoken is another question. Northern dialect? (That's where they were from.) An Aramaic-influenced form of Hebrew, like Jeremiah? Does Lehi know one of the south Arabian languages (from which a plausible etymology can be given for Irreantum)? Is his Hebrew Arabicized, perhaps like Job (and as suggested by Brian Stubbs)?

To simply say "Lehi spoke (or didn't speak) Hebrew" is accurate as far as it goes, but not very precise.

[ed2276]

Hello Will,

I see things a bit differently.

Indeed, however in that single verse, Moroni states that he and his father would have preferred to write in an altered Hebrew script. Why would they have preferred this technique if they were not speaking Hebrew? As Jews leaving the kingdom of Judah around 600 BCE, Lehi and his family would have spoken Hebrew as their primary dialect.

I certainly do agree, however, with the implications of the second half of your question, namely, we should not expect that many of Lehiâ??s descendants knew how to write at all, let alone in Hebrew. Based upon Near Eastern literacy rates, I believe we should take quite seriously the Book of Mormon statements that present a few of the well-educated elite â??readingâ? the scriptures to the masses, including some of the kings.

I shared some of the evidence, as I see it, here:

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/B...BoM_Mar2006.php

Hello Her Amun,

Again, I see things a bit differently.

I do not agree with Nibleyâ??s portrayal of Lehi as a well-traveled nomad. Not only does this suggestion not make sense of the information presented in the text, I believe that the depiction looses some deep spiritual insights concerning the familyâ??s wiliness to sacrifice their sedentary lifestyle and accept the Lordâ??s command.

â??This last example [1 Nephi 2:4] of a word list repeating redundant grammatical information proves significant for a literary analysis of the Book of Mormon. This passage reveals Lehiâ??s original sedentary lifestyle since the third person masculine singular possessive pronoun (his) is attached to each noun in the word list with the exception of provisions and tents. This literary observation is consistent with the way in which Old Testament storytellers revealed subtle information concerning the narratives.â? David E. Bokovoy and John A. Tvedtnes, Testaments: Links Between the Book of Mormon and the Hebrew Bible, 215.

You may also wish to read the compelling arguments Tvedtnes offers for this view in The Most Correct Book: Insights From a Book of Mormon Scholar (Salt Lake City: Cornerstone, 1999), 77-78.

Best,

--DB

Hi David ,

I was reading Sorenson's piece in the JBMS about the Lehi party coming to a New World land already inhabited by "others". Do you think it likely that the Nephites assimilated with the "others" and adopted their language over time rather than continuing to speak Hebrew? It sounds like the Hebrew you mention that Mormon and Moroni spoke and wrote and that the "elite" used to read the scriptures to the masses was a kind of ecclesiastical , priestly language similar to the way Latin was used in the Roman church. I wonder if the scriptures and the records of the Nephites were kept in the Hebrew and the priests and kings read from them , but translated the Hebrew into the language and dialect common to the people as they read?

Could it be that the reason a strong Hebrew language influence isn't seen among the MesoAmerican culltures is because Hebrew wasn't widely spoken by the Nephites after a few centuries , the Nephites having adopted the language of the more numerous cluture into which they assimilated , and those who did speak Hebrew were wiped out with the wars of desolation circ. 400a.d.?

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Ed,

I was reading Sorenson's piece in the JBMS about the Lehi party coming to a New World land already inhabited by "others".

Iâ??m convinced that Sorenson is correct.

Do you think it likely that the Nephites assimilated with the "others" and adopted their language over time rather than continuing to speak Hebrew?

If there were other languages in the land then we would expect after several centuries of contact that those languages would have had a enormous impact upon the native dialect of the Nephities. Or, as Moroni states, the Hebrew had been "altered."

It sounds like the Hebrew you mention that Mormon and Moroni spoke and wrote and that the "elite" used to read the scriptures to the masses was a kind of ecclesiastical , priestly language similar to the way Latin was used in the Roman church.

Thatâ??s a good analogy.

I wonder if the scriptures and the records of the Nephites were kept in the Hebrew and the priests and kings read from them , but translated the Hebrew into the language and dialect common to the people as they read?

We have this exact thing taking place in the Targumim, whereby the Rabbis â??translatedâ? orally the Hebrew scriptures into a language that a contemporary Jewish audience could understand, i.e., "Aramaic."

Could it be that the reason a strong Hebrew language influence isn't seen among the MesoAmerican culltures is because Hebrew wasn't widely spoken by the Nephites after a few centuries , the Nephites having adopted the language of the more numerous cluture into which they assimilated , and those who did speak Hebrew were wiped out with the wars of desolation circ. 400a.d.?

I believe that there would have been very little Hebrew spoken and even less written.

[William Schryver]

David et. al.,

I think you're missing my point.

What I'm trying to argue is that the TEXT of the Book of Mormon does NOT say that Lehi and his family used Hebrew as their primary language. Indeed, the TEXT of the BoM says that the language of Lehi was Egyptian. It says that the Plates of Brass were written in Egyptian. There is no internal evidence at all to suggest that Lehi and his family spoke Hebrew around the dinner table. Yes, Lehi preached to the Jews. Well, I preached to the Italians, but neither I nor my children use Italian in our conversations, in our journal writing, etc.

Again, my argument is that people have assumed that Lehi and his family spoke Hebrew, but the TEXT of the BoM does not support that conclusion, but rather seems to contradict it.

Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Will,

I appreciate the fact that you've reminded us that when all is said and done, we simply don't have all the details.

My problem with interpreting Lehi as an Egyptian Jew is Nephiâ??s statement, â??my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his daysâ? (1 Nephi 1:4). If the family dwelt at 7th century BCE Jerusalem all their days, I have hard time imagining that Hebrew would not have been their native tongue.

The text seems to suggest that they lived outside of the city proper, and they clearly have been trained in the scribal practices of the Egyptians, however, in my mind, dwelling at Jerusalem leads to a fairly strong possibility that the family did sit around the table speaking Hebrew.

Of course, you're correct. The text doesnâ??t say this specifically.

Best,

--DB

[ed2276]

David et. al.,

I think you're missing my point.

What I'm trying to argue is that the TEXT of the Book of Mormon does NOT say that Lehi and his family used Hebrew as their primary language. Indeed, the TEXT of the BoM says that the language of Lehi was Egyptian. It says that the Plates of Brass were written in Egyptian. There is no internal evidence at all to suggest that Lehi and his family spoke Hebrew around the dinner table. Yes, Lehi preached to the Jews. Well, I preached to the Italians, but neither I nor my children use Italian in our conversations, in our journal writing, etc.

Again, my argument is that people have assumed that Lehi and his family spoke Hebrew, but the TEXT of the BoM does not support that conclusion, but rather seems to contradict it.

Ok , a rather obvious point I overlooked. But , why would Lehi and Nephi speak Egyptian? Lehi was a contemporary of Jeremiah and Ezekiel and was living and active in and around pre-exilic Jerusalem. Why wouldn't he be speaking in Hebrew as he interacted with the inhabitants of Jerusalem? What does the fact that Lehi spoke Egyptian tell us? Were there a group of Israelites who kept the Egyptian language alive among them after the Exodus from Egypt? Was Lehi born in Egypt or did his family live in Egypt for a period of time before coming to Judah? If he did speak Egyptian , wouldn't it also be very likely that he spoke Hebrew , as his prophetic calling was to warn the Hebrew-speaking inhabitants of Jerusalem?

Edit:

Oh boy! If I had bothered to read your post #1 I wouldn't have wasted ink and paper here asking you these questions...withdrawn. Except the , "did Lehi live in Egypt" part. Is there any evidence , other than his speaking an Egyptian dialect , that would put Lehi and his family in Egypt before coming to Judah?

[ed2276]

Hello Will,

I appreciate the fact that you've reminded us that when all is said and done, we simply don't have all the details.

My problem with interpreting Lehi as an Egyptian Jew is Nephiâ??s statement, â??my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his daysâ? (1 Nephi 1:4). If the family dwelt at 7th century BCE Jerusalem all their days, I have hard time imagining that Hebrew would not have been their native tongue.

The text seems to suggest that they lived outside of the city proper, and they clearly have been trained in the scribal practices of the Egyptians, however, in my mind, dwelling at Jerusalem leads to a fairly strong possibility that the family did sit around the table speaking Hebrew.

Of course, you're correct. The text doesnâ??t say this specifically.

Best,

--DB

My head , my head!!!! It's about to explode. You all make good points and counter-points!

[jwhitlock]

I'm jumping into something that's well over my head, but here goes...

In what little I've read, it does seem to me that the Israelites had a love-hate relationship with Egypt starting with the exodus and lasting until.... well, just about today. My impression is that Egyptian culture had more than a little influence over Jerusalem and the surrounding areas.

I found the following on Amazon; I haven't read the book, but the comments were interesting and might shed some light on how interrelated both cultures actually might have been. It does happen in our world, too; for instance, you can go to Germany nowadays and get along pretty well just speaking English.

Some of the reading I've done appears to indicate that the Egyptian influence over Judah was more significant right before the Babylonian captivity - part of the political maneuvering of the time.

The Amazon book link is here.

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Jwhitlock,

I own the Redford book and think that it's pretty good. It's certainly worth reading. As a Semiticist, I tend to see Mesopotamian influences where Redford sees Egyptian ties, but that's just my take.

Anyone interested in Hebrew texts written in Egyptian scripts should consider the following article:

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/display.ph...jbms&id=128

[William Schryver]

Indeed, however in that single verse, Moroni states that he and his father would have preferred to write in an altered Hebrew script. Why would they have preferred this technique if they were not speaking Hebrew?

Their stated preference to have used Hebrew in order to write could have everything to do with their recognition of Hebrew as superior in that single respect. It does not follow, in my estimation, that they spoke Hebrew. What follows is that they used their “Reformed Egyptian” script because it had the capacity to say more in less space than did Hebrew script.

As Jews leaving the kingdom of Judah around 600 BCE, Lehi and his family would have spoken Hebrew as their primary dialect.

We don’t really know that Lehi and his family were native Jews from Judah. We assume that they were. And yet we know that there were thousands of Jews living in Egypt at the time. And it appears that Lehi did not live in Judah proper. (Argument below)

When Nephi and his brothers went back for the Brass Plates, we are told this:

12 And he desired of Laban the records which were engraven upon the plates of brass, which contained the genealogy of my father.

Lehi knew that these plates contained his genealogy. We know that these plates were written in Egyptian. What can we conclude from these two facts?

After Laman failed to obtain the plates, we read that Nephi said:

… let us go down to the land of our father's inheritance, for behold he left gold and silver, and all manner of riches.

The land of Lehi’s “inheritance” was clearly not in Jerusalem. Indeed, Nephi says they went “down” to arrive there. We are not told how far they went. However, if the location was nearby, why use the language “the land?” Why not say, “we went down the street.” Or, “we went across town.” They had to travel “to the land of our father’s inheritance.” To me, this implies some distance.

The Monk:

What *kind* of Hebrew Lehi might have spoken is another question. Northern dialect? (That's where they were from.) An Aramaic-influenced form of Hebrew, like Jeremiah?

When Lehi and his family left the first time, it took them only three days to reach “the borders of the Red Sea.” If they lived in the north of Israel, they could not have made the journey so quickly. This also suggests that they lived somewhere south of Judah – somewhere between Jerusalem and Egypt. As for Aramaic, it was not widely spoken until after the exile – although it is certainly possible that Lehi (if indeed we subscribe to the Nibley theory that makes of him a nomadic trader of sorts) spoke Aramaic, which was then becoming somewhat of a “lingua franca” in the Near East.

My problem with interpreting Lehi as an Egyptian Jew is Nephi’s statement, “my father, Lehi, having dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days” (1 Nephi 1:4). If the family dwelt at 7th century BCE Jerusalem all their days, I have hard time imagining that Hebrew would not have been their native tongue.

I don’t view Lehi as an Egyptian Jew, but rather suspect he was a descendant of Egyptian Jews. The phrase “dwelt at Jerusalem in all his days” could very well be idiomatic usage, just as when Nephi later suggests that Christ would be born in “the land of Jerusalem.” However, I agree that 1 Nephi 1:4 complicates the question. Still, Nephi is emphatic in his statement that the “language of [his] father” consisted of “the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.” I find it difficult to reconcile this rather precise statement with the argument that Lehi was primarily a Hebrew speaker. Otherwise, I would expect Nephi to have said “the learning of the Egyptians and the language of the Jews.”

The text seems to suggest that they lived outside of the city proper, and they clearly have been trained in the scribal practices of the Egyptians, however, in my mind, dwelling at Jerusalem leads to a fairly strong possibility that the family did sit around the table speaking Hebrew.

Of course, you're correct. The text doesn’t say this specifically.

Clearly I agree with you on the first point. And all I’m saying in reference to the second point is that, as you acknowledge, the text does not say that Lehi’s language was Hebrew. Indeed, it does say that his language was Egyptian – whatever that was intended to mean.

ed2276:

Ok , a rather obvious point I overlooked. But , why would Lehi and Nephi speak Egyptian? Lehi was a contemporary of Jeremiah and Ezekiel and was living and active in and around pre-exilic Jerusalem. Why wouldn't he be speaking in Hebrew as he interacted with the inhabitants of Jerusalem?

I’m not arguing that Lehi didn’t know Hebrew. I’m quite certain that he did. He preached to the Jews. The question I am posing is whether the TEXT of the Book of Mormon informs us that Lehi’s language was Hebrew. I maintain that it does not. Indeed, it tells us that his language was Egyptian. We have always assumed that Lehi used Hebrew as his primary language. The Book of Mormon does not, in my estimation, support that assumption. Rather, Nephi says that his father’s language was Egyptian. Simple as that.

Was Lehi born in Egypt or did his family live in Egypt for a period of time before coming to Judah?

This is certainly a possibility. There was a significant Jewish presence in Egypt during this period of time.

If he did speak Egyptian , wouldn't it also be very likely that he spoke Hebrew , as his prophetic calling was to warn the Hebrew-speaking inhabitants of Jerusalem?

Most certainly this is true. But it doesn’t bear on my argument, which is simply that the Book of Mormon does not say that the language of Lehi was Hebrew. It says, rather, that the language of Lehi was Egyptian. It also says that the Plates of Brass were written in Egyptian, and that, significantly, they contained the genealogy of Lehi.

[David Bokovoy]

Clearly I agree with you on the first point. And all Iâ??m saying in reference to the second point is that, as you acknowledge, the text does not say that Lehiâ??s language was Hebrew. Indeed, it does say that his language was Egyptian â?? whatever that was intended to mean.

Interesting, Will. You may be right. If that's the case, one could still preserve the Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon as an intentional effort by Nephite authors to reflect the Hebrew in biblical texts in the same way that Joseph's revelations (including the Book of Mormon) reflect the language of the King James Version of the Bible.

[William Schryver]

Interesting, Will. You may be right. If that's the case, one could still preserve the Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon as an intentional effort by Nephite authors to reflect the Hebrew in biblical texts in the same way that Joseph's revelations (including the Book of Mormon) reflect the language of the King James Version of the Bible.

Precisely!

And, if we stop for a moment to assume the possibility that Lehi was predisposed to speak/write Egyptian (while yet fully a Jew), then you can quickly see that there are many problems that go away, and many other questions that are provided with answers -- vis-a-vis the language of the Book of Mormon and what traces of it we could plausibly expect to find in Mesoamerica.

I want to reiterate my point about the Plates of Brass, because you did not respond to it. We are told two significant things about these plates: 1.) That they contained the genealogy of Lehi, and 2.) That they were written in Egyptian. I find it strange that Lehi's genealogy would have been recorded on a set of plates written in Egyptian if his forefathers had been living exclusively in Israel. Don't you?

[ed2276]

Their stated preference to have used Hebrew in order to write could have everything to do with their recognition of Hebrew as superior in that single respect. It does not follow, in my estimation, that they spoke Hebrew. What follows is that they used their â??Reformed Egyptianâ? script because it had the capacity to say more in less space than did Hebrew script.

We donâ??t really know that Lehi and his family were native Jews from Judah. We assume that they were. And yet we know that there were thousands of Jews living in Egypt at the time. And it appears that Lehi did not live in Judah proper. (Argument below)

When Nephi and his brothers went back for the Brass Plates, we are told this:

Lehi knew that these plates contained his genealogy. We know that these plates were written in Egyptian. What can we conclude from these two facts?

After Laman failed to obtain the plates, we read that Nephi said:

The land of Lehiâ??s â??inheritanceâ? was clearly not in Jerusalem. Indeed, Nephi says they went â??downâ? to arrive there. We are not told how far they went. However, if the location was nearby, why use the language â??the land?â? Why not say, â??we went down the street.â? Or, â??we went across town.â? They had to travel â??to the land of our fatherâ??s inheritance.â? To me, this implies some distance.

The Monk:

When Lehi and his family left the first time, it took them only three days to reach â??the borders of the Red Sea.â? If they lived in the north of Israel, they could not have made the journey so quickly. This also suggests that they lived somewhere south of Judah â?? somewhere between Jerusalem and Egypt. As for Aramaic, it was not widely spoken until after the exile â?? although it is certainly possible that Lehi (if indeed we subscribe to the Nibley theory that makes of him a nomadic trader of sorts) spoke Aramaic, which was then becoming somewhat of a â??lingua francaâ? in the Near East.

I donâ??t view Lehi as an Egyptian Jew, but rather suspect he was a descendant of Egyptian Jews. The phrase â??dwelt at Jerusalem in all his daysâ? could very well be idiomatic usage, just as when Nephi later suggests that Christ would be born in â??the land of Jerusalem.â? However, I agree that 1 Nephi 1:4 complicates the question. Still, Nephi is emphatic in his statement that the â??language of [his] fatherâ? consisted of â??the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.â? I find it difficult to reconcile this rather precise statement with the argument that Lehi was primarily a Hebrew speaker. Otherwise, I would expect Nephi to have said â??the learning of the Egyptians and the language of the Jews.â?

Clearly I agree with you on the first point. And all Iâ??m saying in reference to the second point is that, as you acknowledge, the text does not say that Lehiâ??s language was Hebrew. Indeed, it does say that his language was Egyptian â?? whatever that was intended to mean.

ed2276:

Iâ??m not arguing that Lehi didnâ??t know Hebrew. Iâ??m quite certain that he did. He preached to the Jews. The question I am posing is whether the TEXT of the Book of Mormon informs us that Lehiâ??s language was Hebrew. I maintain that it does not. Indeed, it tells us that his language was Egyptian. We have always assumed that Lehi used Hebrew as his primary language. The Book of Mormon does not, in my estimation, support that assumption. Rather, Nephi says that his fatherâ??s language was Egyptian. Simple as that.

This is certainly a possibility. There was a significant Jewish presence in Egypt during this period of time.

Most certainly this is true. But it doesnâ??t bear on my argument, which is simply that the Book of Mormon does not say that the language of Lehi was Hebrew. It says, rather, that the language of Lehi was Egyptian. It also says that the Plates of Brass were written in Egyptian, and that, significantly, they contained the genealogy of Lehi.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to all my questions , Will. I had asked them before I even read your OP(bad , baaaad , me). I came into the thread in the middle of things and should have taken the time to read all the posts above where I came in. Alot of my questions were already answered by your OP and the other posts above mine. That's why I withdrew these questions. Again , thank you for going over them again.

[ed2276]

Good observations. And certainly there is much more in the new world that bearsappears to bear an Egyptian influence as opposed to a Israelite influence.

No Touch ,

Could you point me to some references for examples of that Egyptian influence in the New World? I would love to read something about that. That would be very interesting.

[David Bokovoy]

I want to reiterate my point about the Plates of Brass, because you did not respond to it. We are told two significant things about these plates: 1.) That they contained the genealogy of Lehi, and 2.) That they were written in Egyptian. I find it strange that Lehi's genealogy would have been recorded on a set of plates written in Egyptian if his forefathers had been living exclusively in Israel. Don't you?

You make some very compelling points. Iâ??m going to have to stew on this for awhile, since itâ??s a completely different construct than Iâ??ve assumed in the past. Very interesting.

Warm regards,

--DB

[William Schryver]

As I have continued to ponder this topic, I realized that there is another extremely important passage I have neglected to reference. Nephi, immediately after suggesting to his brothers that they should “go down to the land of our father's inheritance,” then makes this significant declaration:

1 Nephi 3

19 And behold, it is wisdom in God that we should obtain these records, that we may preserve unto our children the language of our fathers;

Clearly, Nephi understood the importance of obtaining the Plates of Brass for the purpose of “preserving unto our children the language of [his] fathers.” And in what language were the Plates of Brass written? Egyptian.

Several hundred years later, we read that King Mosiah taught his sons this same language:

Mosiah 1

2 And it came to pass that he had three sons; and he called their names Mosiah, and Helorum, and Helaman. And he caused that they should be taught in all the language of his fathers, that thereby they might become men of understanding; and that they might know concerning the prophecies which had been spoken by the mouths of their fathers, which were delivered them by the hand of the Lord.

3 And he also taught them concerning the records which were engraven on the plates of brass, saying: My sons, I would that ye should remember that were it not for these plates, which contain these records and these commandments, we must have suffered in ignorance, even at this present time, not knowing the mysteries of God.

4 For it were not possible that our father, Lehi, could have remembered all these things, to have taught them to his children, except it were for the help of these plates; for he having been taught in the language of the Egyptians therefore he could read these engravings, and teach them to his children, that thereby they could teach them to their children, and so fulfilling the commandments of God, even down to this present time.

Clearly, Mosiah was teaching his sons how to read the language of the Brass Plates. And what was that language? Egyptian!

Nephi also makes clear that he himself could read the Plates of Brass:

1 Nephi 5

20 And it came to pass that thus far I and my father had kept the commandments wherewith the Lord had commanded us.

21 And we had obtained the records which the Lord had commanded us, and searched them and found that they were desirable; yea, even of great worth unto us, insomuch that we could preserve the commandments of the Lord unto our children.

I therefore submit that the language of Nephi, Lehi, their fathers, as well as the language that King Mosiah had taught to his sons, in order that they might be instructed in “the language of [their] fathers" was Egyptian, the language of the Plates of Brass.

I do not dispute that they were Jews, descendants of Manasseh, nor that they were also fluent in Hebrew. But the text of the Book of Mormon tells us that the language that Lehi and his descendants preserved for their people was the language of the Plates of Brass: Egyptian.

[Son]

As I have continued to ponder this topic, I realized that there is another extremely important passage I have neglected to reference. Nephi, immediately after suggesting to his brothers that they should â??go down to the land of our father's inheritance,â? then makes this significant declaration:

Clearly, Nephi understood the importance of obtaining the Plates of Brass for the purpose of â??preserving unto our children the language of [his] fathers.â? And in what language were the Plates of Brass written? Egyptian.

Several hundred years later, we read that King Mosiah taught his sons this same language:

Clearly, Mosiah was teaching his sons how to read the language of the Brass Plates. And what was that language? Egyptian!

Nephi also makes clear that he himself could read the Plates of Brass:

I therefore submit that the language of Nephi, Lehi, their fathers, as well as the language that King Mosiah had taught to his sons, in order that they might be instructed in â??the language of [their] fathers" was Egyptian, the language of the Plates of Brass.

I do not dispute that they were Jews, descendants of Manasseh, nor that they were also fluent in Hebrew. But the text of the Book of Mormon tells us that the language that Lehi and his descendants preserved for their people was the language of the Plates of Brass: Egyptian.

Excuse the intrusion, The hebrews were in the land of the Egyptians for quite awhile and would have after a few generations been able to speak both, over time one would be dominant (most likely the one that they would read and write with) and one maybe spoken informally in order to have intimate conversations.

Just as immigrants to this country, use 2 languages to get along in life.

Does this fit the Lehi family?

[William Schryver]

Son:

Excuse the intrusion, The hebrews were in the land of the Egyptians for quite awhile and would have after a few generations been able to speak both, over time one would be dominant (most likely the one that they would read and write with) and one maybe spoken informally in order to have intimate conversations.

Although I acknowledge the obvious fact that Lehi and his family were bi-lingual, I am more interested in the fact that they sought to obtain the Plates of Brass for the express purpose that “we may preserve unto our children the language of our fathers.”

The Plates of Brass were written in Egyptian. We must therefore conclude two things: 1) That the language of Lehi’s “fathers” was Egyptian, and that 2) this was the language that Lehi sought to preserve among his children.