Deification/theosis Anyone ?

[SteubieU]

Except Christ knows the name God has been Given so did Christ give God his name? We got a conundrum going here!

What do you mean? God was NOT GIVEN A NAME!!! Nobody gives Him a name! That is the argument.

[Zakuska]

What do you mean? God was NOT GIVEN A NAME!!! Nobody gives Him a name! That is the argument.

Except that he does have a name and Christ knows it.

Ps. 91: 14

14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

Don't you see the cunundrum?

Where did he get it from?

[SteubieU]

Except that he does have a name and Christ knows it.

Ps. 91: 14

14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

Don't you see the cunundrum?

Where did he get it from?

Well, first of all, let's remember that this was Clement's argument, not mine... I'm not saying one way or another whether God has, within Himself, a name. If He does, I agree with Clement that He was not given a name as if He received it from someone else. If God has a name, than He Himself is the One from Whom He got It

[firepatch36]

Here's what Lorenzo Snow had to say:

Dear Brother:

Hast thou not been unwisely bold,

Manâ??s destiny to thus unfold?

To raise, promote such high desire,

Such vast ambition thus inspire?

Still â??tis no phantom that we trace

Manâ??s ultimatum in lifeâ??s race;

This royal path has long been trod

By righteous men, each now a God:

As Abraâ??m, Isaac, Jacob, too,

First babes, then menâ??to gods they grew.

As man now is, our God once was;

As now God is, so man may be,â??

Which doth unfold manâ??s destiny.

For John declares: When Christ we see

Like unto him weâ??ll truly be.

And he who has this hope within,

Will purify himself from sin.

Who keep this object grand in view,

To folly, sin, will bid adieu,

Nor wallow in the mire anew

Nor ever seek to carve his name

High on the shaft of worldly fame;

But here his ultimatum trace:

The head of all his spirit-race

Oh, well: tat taught by you, dear Paul,

â??Though much amazed, we see it all;

Our Father God, has opeâ??d our eyes,

We cannot view it otherwise.

The boy, like to his father grown,

Has but attained unto his own;

To grow to sire from state of son,

Is not â??gainst Natureâ??s course to run.

A son of God, like God to be,

Would not be robbing Deity;

And he who has this hope within,

Will purify himself from sin.

Youâ??re right, St. John, Supremely right:

Whoeâ??er essays to climb this height,

Will cleanse himself of sin entire-

Or elses â??twere needless to aspire.

(Lorenzo Snow, â??Manâ??s Destiny,â? Improvement Era, June 1919, pp. 660â??61.)

[Zakuska]

Seems to me... God is going to make all of us "unoriginated/unamed" just like he is...

Rev. 2: 17

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

[rhinomelon]

Seems to me... God is going to make all of us "unoriginated/unamed" just like he is...

Rev. 2: 17

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Wow. How you got from "God is going to give us a new name" to "We are going to be unnamed" is beyond me. And the passage says absolutely nothing about being "unoriginate".

Except that he does have a name and Christ knows it.

Ps. 91: 14

14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

Don't you see the cunundrum?

Where did he get it from?

One must also keep in mind that there is a different context between the OT and Justin's time. In the OT, a person's name was not simply a moniker, but said a great deal about a person's character and being. This is why the OT lists dozens of names for God, all of which say something about Him. Yahweh Jireh (my Provider), Yahweh Rophe (the Lord is my Healer) and so on. Someone knowing the name of God in the OT is akin to someone knowing God personally, knowing His character and mind. It's not like saying "Hey -----, how's it going?" That's the way we would use it, and more like the way Justin was looking at it as well.

In any case, you seem determined to ignore whatever doesn't line up with your pet theory (especially Justin's own writings that contradict it explicitly), so I'm not sure what you're now trying to prove.

Take care, everyone

[Zakuska]

If No Man knows the name but the man who receives it and since God is a man of war (Ex 15:3)... It follows that there is no man including God except the person who Got the new name who knows it. So since the name is guarded completely just for the person receiving it, there is nobody above the name to have power over it. Thus Just Like God we are "unnamed" and completely exalted. 100% totally free.

[rhinomelon]

If No Man knows the name but the man who receives it and since God is a man of war (Ex 15:3)... It follows that there is no man including God except the person who Got the new name who knows it. So since the name is guarded completely just for the person receiving it, there is nobody above the name to have power over it. Thus Just Like God we are "unnamed" and completely exalted. 100% totally free.

This could be one of the most bizarre posts I've ever seen from you, and that's saying something! Cherry-picking at its finest. So God doesn't know the name He gives us now? There's just a lottery for names up in heaven, luck of the draw? The God who knows our thoughts, the number of hairs on our heads, our futures, etc., suddenly has a mental block regarding the names that He Himself gave us?Wow.

Anyway, I'm still waiting on why we should accept your rather odd interpretation of one sentence in Justin's work, an interpretation that directly contradicts Justin's words in another section.

Take care, everyone

[Zakuska]

What? You don't think the all powerful God can do something without his right hand knowing about it?

Cant he generate a password that not even he knows?

[rhinomelon]

What? You don't think the all powerful God can do something without his right hand knowing about it?

Cant he generate a password that not even he knows?

These are just word games that have no bearing on anything real. They don't really make that much sense.

Anyway, still waiting on why your interpretation of one sentence of Justin's trumps Justin's own words elsewhere...

Take care, everyone

EDIT: Hold on, are you saying that God does things without knowing about it? That God's right hand doesn't know what the left is doing? If so, where do you get that from Scripture (even LDS scripture!)?

[Zakuska]

Well...

Christ is commonly refered to as Gods Right hand man... yet we know that not even he or the Angels know the exact time of his second comming.

[rhinomelon]

Christ is commonly refered to as Gods Right hand man... yet we know that not even he or the Angels know the exact time of his second comming.

During his earthly ministry, Christ did not know, that's true. But there is no reason to assume that this state of affairs has continued past the resurrection. In Acts 1:7, for example, Christ is no longer included among those who do not know. He speaks to the disciples, telling them that it is not for them to know the dates and times. Also see Revelation 22, where Christ says twice, "Behold, I am coming soon!" I think he knows now.

Take care, everyone.

[Zakuska]

You think?

I don't see Christ including himself in the know in Acts 1:7

[rhinomelon]

You think?

I don't see Christ including himself in the know in Acts 1:7

He doesn't exclude himself either, however, like he did before. And what about Revelation 22?

And while I'm here, what about Justin??

[Zakuska]

He's been saying he's coming quickly for long time now. Apparently something hasnt happened that needs to... or he'd be here already.

Perhaps....?!

2 Thes 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

[fatherofone]

He's been saying he's coming quickly for long time now. Apparently something hasnt happened that needs to... or he'd be here already.

Perhaps....?!

2 Thes 2

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Yes what is quickly, even in the bom he says he is coming quickly, yet it has been a thousand plus years and yet he is still not here. Are we really even sure he is coming?

This is a sincere question, not trying to mock anyone

[Zakuska]

Peter answers your question...

2 Peter 3

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

[fatherofone]

Peter answers your question...

2 Peter 3

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

thanks for that quote, but I have read similar elsewhere, even in the d&c he says he is coming quickly and that was 170 or more years ago. My faith has suffered a huge check lately and I am not even sure I believe anything anymore....

[Zakuska]

Do you realize how many prophecies have been fufilled in those 170 years?

[fatherofone]

Do you realize how many prophecies have been fufilled in those 170 years?

No I do not, I used to believe he would come again, even thought it would happen in my life time...but now I am not so sure there is even a "him" anymore or that he is going to come at all if he was ever hear to begin with. Especially with all the strife over who is right....I mean so much confusion...and for what...for all we know when we die that is the end thereof. I mean I have been through the temple and all that, so I suppose I am damning myself by saying these things...but its how I feel lately

[Zakuska]

I can sympathise with how you feel. I too had a faith crisis a few years back. But this board (and the many wonderful educated posters) and the Fair and Farms site have helped immensly.

[fatherofone]

I can sympathise with how you feel. I too had a faith crisis a few years back. But this board (and the many wonderful educated posters) and the Fair and Farms site have helped immensly.

How did they do that

[Zakuska]

By pointing me to where I could find answers to the questions that where bugging me. And then through careful study and prayer and the sweet whisperings of the spirit I was able to calm my troubled soul.

[fatherofone]

By pointing me to where I could find answers to the questions that where bugging me. And then through careful study and prayer and the sweet whisperings of the spirit I was able to calm my troubled soul.

How do you know it is the spirit tho, and not just your mind wandering. For rhimel I think I cannot pm not enough posts yet, but I welcom your assistance

[Zakuska]

Because the Spirit speakes to the heart and the mind.