Chiasmus

[Dan Vogel]

Bernard,

Unfortunately, Turner's statement gives no details from which to draw any conclusions about Joseph's

early abilities. Many of his contemporaries portrayed Smith as the village idiot. We have nothing with which to compare the production of his magnum opus which truly appeared out of nowhere. It is a long stretch from a juvenile debating club and an youth exhorter to a creator of a lengthy and complex religious work.

No. But Turner does say he was a "passable" exhorter. Regardless, the source should make us question your assumption that he was just passively waiting around to translate the BOM. It's might not be as good as finding his report card from school, but it does tell us about some of his pre-BOM training. It is unrealistic to expect the kind of evidence that you seem to be demanding. Certainly, you can't expect the same kind of evidence that came later to have occurred before the BOM.

By his own confession, he was very familiar with the Bible and various theological debates of his time. He was also quite a story teller, and held his family spell-bound night after night with stories about the Nephites. I think it's wrong to assume the BOM came out of nowhere.

I disagree. His knowledge of the Nephites was gained from periodic visits with Moroni before receiving

the plates. I suppose his mother could have been lying when she said he was the least of her children

to be interested in reading.

Yes, he claimed the information came from either the angel or visions, but how the story was told was up to him. However, you must allow the possibility that JS wasn't getting information from angels and that he was creating stories well before dictating the BOM, that is, you must suspend belief if we are to test your thesis that JS could not have written the BOM. If you keep dismissing evidence in this manner, you are simply creating a begging the question situation.

I don't think Lucy was lying, but as I said, I think she was exaggerating for effect. Just like Emma was when she said JS could not write a coherent letter. She didn't think JS read the Bible, but his own statement seems to suggest otherwise. However, besides the Bible, I too doubt he read much. But the BOM doesn't require it.

I think it's obvious that JS was thoroughly acquainted with the Bible. I think his mother was exaggerating his ignorance for rhetorical purposes, especially since she contradicts JS's own statement. Some apologists explain the BOM's anachronistic use of the Bible as part of the translator's vocabulary. That would imply an intimate familiarity with the Bible. His own revelations are also peppered with Biblical allusions. The letter he wrote the Colesville saints in August 1830 has a similar weaving of Bible passages.

Again, you cite material that appears years after the production of the BoM. I am asking for hard

pre-BoM evidence that he had the ability to produce such a work. There simply is none.

Such a demand is unreasonable, and made because you know it can't be met. However, the premise under which your demand is being made is fallacious because you cannot demonstrate that translating the BOM conveyed to JS by some magical and mysterious manner the sudden ability to speak fluent Bible. To accept this argument places the skeptic in a begging the question situation. Moreover, you have apparently invented this theory, for which you have offered no evidence, to dismiss evidence of JS's language abilities. By this means, you apparently wish to forestall serious investigation by inserting an untestable and unfalsifiable theory.

I would also point out that JS was dictating his revelations before he dictated the BOM--at least the text that we have now. His first revelation (D&C 3) was dictated in July 1828--one year before he concluded his three months of translation. At least three revelations (D&C 3, 4, 5) came before dictation began in April 1829. At least thirteen revelations (D&C 6-18) were dictated while JS was translating the BOM. The letter I cited was only a year after dictation of the BOM concluded.

He may not have had high literary and writing skills, but that doesn't preclude him from having verbal and rhetorical skills. I don't think JS can be compare to the average kid out there. At the time he was dictating the BOM, he was 23.

Prior to the age of 23, are there any contemporary descriptions of him as a wunderkind scriptorian

with a prodigious memory who was capable of narrating off the cuff a 500+ page book? Are there any

letters, stories, manuscripts, journals, articles, memories, recollections, anything, that could be brought into evidence? If he had such abilities, someone would have noted them, IMO. Furtive debates and a bit of exhorting don't fit the bill.

Why would there be. No one was paying him any mind outside his treasure digging schemes. Historical sources do not always provide answers to the questions we find important. What would JS have to do to attract enough attention that someone would think it worthy to report or record? Under what circumstances was he going to display his ability to tell stories while at the same time imitating Bible language? And if he did, who would record it in such a way that we could assess his abilities?

IMO, the rhetorical parallelism in the BoM is derived from the Nephite experience in the Old World and their possession of the Brass Plates. I believe they consciously adapted it for their own use in their

own way. It is a window into how they thought and reasoned.

Maybe...maybe not. We might just be fooling ourselves. That's why I have shown that out of 1,000 proposed chiasms, only about 20 or so are impressive. Some might be accidental, while others might be intentional by JS. that's why I have shown that these literary forms are not only in JS's other writings, but also in non-Mormon works as well.

Again, you are comparing JS to average people. Because the average person can't do it, therefore JS couldn't do it?

Considering all the contemporary descriptions of Joseph pre-BoM, which ones portray him as being

a prodigy? What percentage of them describe him as an average kid or even below average?

How many describe him as the village dunce?

They were obviously wrong. However, Orsamus Turner didn't think he was stupid. Some kids are late bloomers; those are the kind that can take you by surprise. There was nothing in Einstein's work as a College student that predicted what was to come. Again, what were villagers supposed to observe in JS that would predict his ability to dictate the BOM? I don't know how your expectations could reasonably be fulfilled.

If I were to compare JS to this, I would choose some of the kid preachers I have seen who have been utterly remarkable and well beyond their elders. I can't remember the kid's name. But many years ago he astounded audiences with his mature preaching style, but he finally grew up and rebelled claiming his parents had exploited him.

I remember the story, too, but I am unaware of anyone who described Joseph to be this precocious.

My use of the story is to show that your assumptions might be wrong. But this kind of speculation/counter-speculation is dangerous because it has no foundation. That's why I prefer a different approach. If the BOM his history, then such debate is moot. However, if the BOM is not history, then your doubts about JS would have to be modified.

Do you have some examples of those sermons that Joseph heard? I would like to study them.

I have not portrayed Joseph as a nit wit. Those are your words. I have presented examples of truly

gifted youngsters such as Mozart to serve as a model with which to compare Smith. Mozart's phenomenally good ear and

memory were highly touted by his father and recognized by the community at a very early age. There is no

comparison. Smith bloomed later in life. I am sure Smith had nascent capabilities that, were he to have been

raised in other circumstances, may have manifested themselves earlier and in other ways. From what

I have read of his life, he was an ordinary American frontier child who produced a remarkable book

without the abilities, tutoring, mentoring, and study that would seem to be required. The child genius

Mozart had early and rigorous training before he produced mature works.

The analogy for me doesn't work, because I do not see the BOM on the same level as Mozart's works. That's not a bad thing either. I see the frontier woven into the BOM.

You are arguing in circles here. It doesn't make sense to argue that JS could learn this skill by translating the BOM and not by reading the Bible. If JS had the ability, he had it before the BOM. Many people (like you) read both the Bible and BOM, but can't write something like his letter from Liberty Jail.

I would argue that his intellectual abilities were jump-started by his experience with the Book of Mormon.

I would not argue that he had some sort of prodigious knowledge of the Bible gained from some cursory

reading and listening to some hick preachers. Again, you appeal to a later mature work to prove your

point. I make no claims to being a great writer. Why the insult?

No insult was intended. My point was that if you can't get "jump-started" by reading the Bible or BOM, JS must have been an extraordinary person. If he was an extraordinary person with the ability to do what you claim, then he also had the ability to write the BOM. Your only argument is that his abilities came too late, which you can't prove. If you can speculate that JS was "jump-started" by the BOM, why can't I speculated that he was "jump-started" by the Bible?

We also differ, because I think the Liberty Jail letter is superior in language power than most parts of the BOM.

As should be expected of a later, more mature writing. How about something comparable pre-BoM?

Not by an "idiot", as you expressed it. And there is no evidence for your magical transformation theory.

But no one can do what Dylan does as well as Dylan does it, because there is only one Dylan. The same is true for JS.

Well, if they did Dylan as well as Dylan, he wouldn't be selling as many records and living in his mansion. He is a good pop artist, no doubt. He lost my loyalty when he sold out to The Man.

He would probably answer that he didn't sell out because he never bought in to role the public tried to force on him.

Books have been written using those farmers' assessments. Some of them by you, correct?

The young Joseph's neighbors and friends described him as nothing but average or below, or worse.

The men who knew him most intimately, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and Brigham Young all verified

this assessment, but they saw the change and described his growth in detail in their writings and sermons.

What assessment? I thought you agreed that JS's revelations and letters were evidence of his abilities; your only argument has been his abilities came from dictating the BOM. So, it would be helpful if you lay out this argument in more detail.