Chiasmus

[AKS]

Please forgive me if this is a stupid question.

If someone where to translate a hebrew text that contained chiasmus into say english, would it be expected that the chiasmus would show up in the translated text?

[Joseph Antley]

Yep.

[Magical Alma]

I was just discussing this with a co-worker the other day. He didn't even understand his anti-mormon rhetoric. The point is that there is NO WAY that someone could come up with that complex format of writing without being introduced to it from someone else. And nobody had any idea what chiasmus was in Joseph Smith's time. To add to that: Joseph Smith was a farmboy with a 3rd grade level of English. I learned about chiasmus when I was doing my degree in college, and even I could not comprehend it's complexity.

[Irondukesteve]

Even though I dont think Joseph inserted chiasmus into the BoM I do think that he was MUCH brighter than the church gives him credit for. However, sometimes I question this when I see some of the decisions he made.

How cool is it that he Eloped with Emma!!!

[Dale]

Try re-producing a complex Chiasmus without benifit if pen, or paper. Then do it on the spot while dictating it to scribes. No way you could do it without a pre-existent manuscript. That's the best evidence for plates I see. And Chiasmus is just one of I think a hundred poetical type forms in the book. And Joseph Smith did all that while looking at a stone in a dark hat.

[The Dude]

I was just discussing this with a co-worker the other day. He didn't even understand his anti-mormon rhetoric. The point is that there is NO WAY that someone could come up with that complex format of writing without being introduced to it from someone else. And nobody had any idea what chiasmus was in Joseph Smith's time. To add to that: Joseph Smith was a farmboy with a 3rd grade level of English. I learned about chiasmus when I was doing my degree in college, and even I could not comprehend it's complexity.

You accepted an explanation that you didn't even comprehend? Wow, that must've been some apologetic fog!

There's no doubt the BoM contains complex structures that were the result of purposeful compositiont, but the most elegant ones (like the one in Alma) far outdo anything I've ever been shown from ancient Hebrew. These cannot logically be used as evidence of ancient Hebrew roots, and may be used as evidence against ancient Hebrew roots.

[Mighty Curelom]

he most elegant ones (like the one in Alma) far outdo anything I've ever been shown from ancient Hebrew. These cannot logically be used as evidence of ancient Hebrew roots, and may be used as evidence against ancient Hebrew roots.

Exactly. Overzealous apologists like to trot out extra long alleged chiasmuses, but I've yet to see any references to indisputably authentic Hebrew that come even close. So how about it? Anyone know of a full length chapter of chiasmus in the most well known of ancient Hebrew resources, the Bible? Or, barring that, any other ancient Hebrew text?

[Dale]

I actually accept a degree of Blake Ostlers idea that the Book of Mormon is a modern expansion of an ancient text. So the Chiasms could have been simpler on the plates, and further complexity was part of the expansion. He holds that a part of translation is explanation & interpretation. And that Joseph Smith when seeing words in his spiritual mind effected it with things that came out of his 19th century world view.

[The Dude]

I actually accept a degree of Blake Ostlers idea that the Book of Mormon is a modern expansion of an ancient text. So the Chiasms could have been simpler on the plates, and further complexity was part of the expansion. He holds that a part of translation is explanation & interpretation. And that Joseph Smith when seeing words in his spiritual mind effected it with things that came out of his 19th century world view.

So super-chiasmus were part of his world view, and he had the ability to expand them as he translated?

[consiglieri]

Complicated examples of chiasmus are found in the Old Testament.

Please forgive the fact that this message board does not allow me to indent so as to make the structure more apparent.

Genesis 7:21-23

a. There died on the earth

b. all birds,

c. cattle,

d. beasts and creeping things,

e. man;

f. all life

g. died

g. and was destroyed.

f. Every living thing

e. both man,

d. creeping things,

c. cattle,

b. birds,

a. were destroyed from the earth.

Psalms 3:7-8

a. Save me,

b. O my God,

c. for thou has smitten

d. all my enemies

e. on the cheekbone;

e. The teeth

d. of the wicked

c. thou hast broken;

b. to Jehovah,

a. the salvation.

In this case it was necessary to go to the Hebrew in order to see the chiasmic structure. Most instances of chiasmus in the Bible have been obscured by the translation process (the word order generally required by these structures is just not good English).

Leviticus 24

a. Then the Lord spake unto Moses

b. Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him...stone him

c. Thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying

d. Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin... the stranger as well as he that is born in the land

e. And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death

f. And he that killeth a beast shall make it good, beast for beast

g. and if a man cause a blemish in his neighbor so shall it be done to him

Breach for breach

h. Eye for eye

Tooth for tooth

g. As he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him

f. And he that killeth a beast, he shall

restore it

e. And he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death

d. Ye shall have one manner of law for the stranger and well as one of your own country

c. And Moses spake to the children of Israel

b. Bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp and stone him with stones

a. They did as the Lord commanded Moses

_______________________________

So it appears that somewhat super chiastic structures are not unheard of in the Old Testament.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[Homestar Runner]

Indenting is out, but periods work.

Complicated examples of chiasmus are found in the Old Testament.

Please forgive the fact that this message board does not allow me to indent so as to make the structure more apparent.

Genesis 7:21-23

a. There died on the earth

.b. all birds,

..c. cattle,

...d. beasts and creeping things,

....e. man;

.....f. all life

......g. died

......g. and was destroyed.

.....f. Every living thing

....e. both man,

...d. creeping things,

..c. cattle,

.b. birds,

a. were destroyed from the earth.

Psalms 3:7-8

a. Save me,

.b. O my God,

..c. for thou has smitten

...d. all my enemies

....e. on the cheekbone;

....e. The teeth

...d. of the wicked

..c. thou hast broken;

.b. to Jehovah,

a. the salvation.

In this case it was necessary to go to the Hebrew in order to see the chiasmic structure. Most instances of chiasmus in the Bible have been obscured by the translation process (the word order generally required by these structures is just not good English).

Leviticus 24

a. Then the Lord spake unto Moses

.b. Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him...stone him

..c. Thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying

...d. Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin... the stranger as well as he that is born in the land

....e. And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death

.....f. And he that killeth a beast shall make it good, beast for beast

......g. and if a man cause a blemish in his neighbor so shall it be done to him

......... Breach for breach

......... Eye for eye

......... Tooth for tooth

......g. As he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him

.....f. And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it

....e. And he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death

...d. Ye shall have one manner of law for the stranger and well as one of your own country

..c. And Moses spake to the children of Israel

.b. Bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp and stone him with stones

a. They did as the Lord commanded Moses

I really like reading them in this format.

[TrashcanMan79]

Are there examples of simple chiasms in the BOM, or are they ALL complex? Anyone who has a copy of Donald Perry's "The Book of Mormon Text Reformatted According to Parallelistic Patterns" could really help me out here.

I've heard it put forth that the lack of chiasms with only two or three epanados in the BOM (as opposed to most Biblical examples) weighs against the book's claim of Near Eastern antiquity....

[David Bokovoy]

Exactly. Overzealous apologists like to trot out extra long alleged chiasmuses, but I've yet to see any references to indisputably authentic Hebrew that come even close. So how about it? Anyone know of a full length chapter of chiasmus in the most well known of ancient Hebrew resources, the Bible? Or, barring that, any other ancient Hebrew text?

Complex examples like the one purposed for Alma 36 have certainly been identified throughout the Hebrew Bible. I mean, my heavens, Duane Christensen came up with one for the entire book of Deuteronomy:

â?¦A. The OUTER FRAME: A Look Backwards (Deut 1-3)

��B. The INNER FRAME: The Great Peroration (Deut 4-11)

���C. The CENTRAL CORE: Covenant Stipulations (Deut 12-26)

��B. The INNER FRAME: The Covenant Ceremony (Deut 27-30)

â?¦.A. The OUTER FRAME: A Look Forwards (Deut 31-34).

â??The two parts of the Outer Frame (Deut 1-3 and 31-34) may be read as a single document, tied together by the figure of Joshua who appears only in Deut 3, 31, and 34. The two parts of the Inner frame (Deut 4-11 and 27-30) may also be read as a single documents, joined together by the reference to blessings and curses connected with a cultic ceremony on Mount Gerizim and Mount Ebal (Deut 11:26-32 and 27:1-14), which are mentioned only in these two contexts with the book of Deuteronomy. At the center of this construction lies the Central Core (Deut 12-26), which is the primary body of instruction in the culture of ancient Israel, sometimes called the Deuteronomy law code. This block of material is in turn arranged in a â??remarkably coherent five-part structureâ??, which is also organized concentrically. In fact, it will be shown in this commentary that each of these five major parts of the book of Deuteronomy may in turn by analyzed into somewhat similar concentric structuresâ? in Deuteronomy 1-11: Word Biblical Commentary, pg. xli.

[Warship]

If anyone is interested in complex chiasms, I have some new ones that explain the burning bush of Moses at the link in my new thread.

I'm grateful that David and Consiglieri have demonstrated that complex chiasms due occur in the bible, I had no idea about Deuteronomy. I had heard this complaint many times and am glad to see complex chiasms in the bible.

[charity]

I don't think anyone in the Church downplays or denigrates Joseph Smith's intelligence. We do reocgnize, however, that his early life did not allow him much education. However, over time, under tutelage of the Spirit and his own hard work, the lack of an early formal education was certainly ameliorated. He obviously was a brilliant man, and his writings later in his life were some of the best writing America has produced. Had he been given a normal life span, who knows what he would have produced.

[Olavarria]

This block of material is in turn arranged in a â??remarkably coherent five-part structureâ??, which is also organized concentrically. In fact, it will be shown in this commentary that each of these five major parts of the book of Deuteronomy may in turn by analyzed into somewhat similar concentric structuresâ? in Deuteronomy 1-11: Word Biblical Commentary, pg. xli.

Ya, but that is all chalked up to luck. You know that the ancient jews who penned Duetoronomy didnt mean to use such a rhetorical device. Another possibility is that they did it on purpose but ol'Joe Smith got lucky when making his golden Bible.

Their is one thing Mormon and non-mormons should agree on: If the BOM didnt have chiasmus and other forms of inverted parrallelisms, then that would be a huge blow to its claims of being an ancient hebrew text, given that such parrallelisms survive in english translations of other hebrew texts

[TrashcanMan79]

Are there examples of simple chiasms in the BOM, or are they ALL complex? Anyone who has a copy of Noel Reynolds's "The Book of Mormon Text Reformatted According to Parallelistic Patterns" could really help me out here.

I've heard it put forth that the lack of chiasms with only two or three epanados in the BOM (as opposed to most Biblical examples) weighs against the book's claim of Near Eastern antiquity....

Pardon me for bumping a thread without making further contribution to it, but this topic was about to drop off the first page, and I was really hoping to get some insight into this. I've googled every imaginable combination of words to find examples of simple BOM chiasmus, but have come up empty handed....

Anyone who could point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated! (Again, pardon my bump. I know how annoying this can be....)

[Hammer]

Even though I dont think Joseph inserted chiasmus into the BoM I do think that he was MUCH brighter than the church gives him credit for. However, sometimes I question this when I see some of the decisions he made.

How cool is it that he Eloped with Emma!!!

You contradicted yourself I am sure you are a ware. I do think it cool that THEY eloped. Everyone should really.

[Magical Alma]

Pardon me for bumping a thread without making further contribution to it, but this topic was about to drop off the first page, and I was really hoping to get some insight into this. I've googled every imaginable combination of words to find examples of simple BOM chiasmus, but have come up empty handed....

Anyone who could point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated! (Again, pardon my bump. I know how annoying this can be....)

I, personally, do not know of any "simple" chiasmus existing in the text. However, that is debatable from person to person, because I consider them all fairly complex. Even complex ones stand as a very good source of legitimacy for the BoM, as it is impossible for someone to make one without noticing. Have you looked on Wikipedia? Wikipedia should have several articles on it. You might only find some on the complex chiasmus as they are the most popular. There probably isn't a solidified, universal consensus on the pages on whether they are complex. Once again though, I'm not sure of any, but I'll check my sources.

[Hammer]

I was just discussing this with a co-worker the other day. He didn't even understand his anti-mormon rhetoric. The point is that there is NO WAY that someone could come up with that complex format of writing without being introduced to it from someone else. And nobody had any idea what chiasmus was in Joseph Smith's time. To add to that: Joseph Smith was a farmboy with a 3rd grade level of English. I learned about chiasmus when I was doing my degree in college, and even I could not comprehend it's complexity.

You accepted an explanation that you didn't even comprehend? Wow, that must've been some apologetic fog!

There's no doubt the BoM contains complex structures that were the result of purposeful compositiont, but the most elegant ones (like the one in Alma) far outdo anything I've ever been shown from ancient Hebrew. These cannot logically be used as evidence of ancient Hebrew roots, and may be used as evidence against ancient Hebrew roots.

Individual gifts and talents can account for that. Alma was given a special mission. A very difficult mission. More talent and charisma in both writing and preaching would be expedient.

[charity]

Why do you want to find "simple" chiasmus?

[All-Seeing Eye]

Forgive me for asking what might be stupid questions. I don't know much about chiasmus.

Was chiasmus intentionally used by the writers of scripture, or was it accidental?

If it was intentionally used, then why was it intentionally used? It seems to be somewhat, er, repetitive.

Why is it used in some places but not in others?

[Hammer]

Forgive me for asking what might be stupid questions. I don't know much about chiasmus.

Was chiasmus intentionally used by the writers of scripture, or was it accidental?

If it was intentionally used, then why was it intentionally used? It seems to be somewhat, er, repetitive.

Why is it used in some places but not in others?

The idea behind the use of this technique is for reinterating a teaching or doctrine. It isn't used all the time because it would become less effective if over used.

[Dale]

I actually accept a degree of Blake Ostlers idea that the Book of Mormon is a modern expansion of an ancient text. So the Chiasms could have been simpler on the plates, and further complexity was part of the expansion. He holds that a part of translation is explanation & interpretation. And that Joseph Smith when seeing words in his spiritual mind effected it with things that came out of his 19th century world view.

So super-chiasmus were part of his world view, and he had the ability to expand them as he translated?

I am not sure how Blake Ostler handles the chiasmus issue. My guess is he felt Joseph Smith was inspired to include the style in his work. So it was a mix of revelation, and Joseph Smith's world view. So the text was essentially a new revamped text, so he didn't expect to find breaks where the new text began, and old one ended.

[consiglieri]

The Book of Mormon is loaded with simple chiasms, as well as complex.

A doublet of a simple chiasm is found below:

2 Nephi 29:13

And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites,

and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews;

and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel;

and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

Now that it has been demonstrated that the Book of Mormon contains simple and complex chiasms; and that the Bible contains simple and complex chiasms; is it possible to reach a consensus that the presence of both simple and complex chiasms in the Book of Mormon is evidence for its ancientess?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri