johnny Posted November 10, 2006 Posted November 10, 2006 livy111us,Sigh......I suppose that would be my response if my church did not teach what the Bible reveals ... LDS teachings are simply not consistent with what the Bible reveals.
selek Posted November 10, 2006 Posted November 10, 2006 livy111us,Sigh......I suppose that would be my response if my church did not teach what the Bible reveals ... LDS teachings are simply not consistent with what the Bible reveals.Johnny, contrary to whatever you may believe. Neither you nor the Catholic Church hold the authoritative, indisputable interpretation of the Bible. If it were the case, then the last two thousand years of dissension within the Catholic Church, the Protestant Reformation, and the Mormon Restoration would not have taken place.By their fruits ye shall know them- your interpretation of scriptures has led to a fracturing of the Chrisitian community and the many, variegated doctrines of men.The teachings of the LDS church ARE consistent with the Bible- but not with your narrow and partisan interpretation thereof.You are not God, you do not speak for him, and you do not hold the license to determine what the Bible does and does not say.So stop bearing false witness against us.
johnny Posted November 10, 2006 Posted November 10, 2006 selek,The teachings of the LDS church ARE consistent with the Bible- but not with your narrow and partisan interpretation thereof.The teachings of the LDS church ARE NOT consistent with the Bible, neither the Early Christians nor the the Bible taught three kingdoms after Final Judament.Please explain how the LDS Church teachings are consistent with the Early Christians and the Bible which reveals that the "just" who are not "perfect" are perfected before Final Judgment.
selek Posted November 10, 2006 Posted November 10, 2006 selek,The teachings of the LDS church ARE consistent with the Bible- but not with your narrow and partisan interpretation thereof.The teachings of the LDS church ARE NOT consistent with the Bible, neither the Early Christians nor the the Bible taught three kingdoms after Final Judament.Please explain how the LDS Church teachings are consistent with the Early Christians and the Bible which reveals that the "just" who are not "perfect" are perfected before Final Judgment.Johnny, This has been asked and answered in the posts above- you simply don't like the answers, and so you flatly ignore the scriptures that fail to support your interpretation- as has also been pointed out above.I will not waste my time "explaining" to you what you flatly refuse to hear. And that's why so few people on these boards take you seriously- there's no arguing with a wall, and you simply refuse to hear.
johnny Posted November 10, 2006 Posted November 10, 2006 selek,This has been asked and answered in the posts abovePlease provide the link or the words that have answered why the LDS church teaches three kingdoms after Final Judgement and the Early Christians and the Bible reveal one kingdom after Final Judgement. so you flatly ignore the scriptures that fail to support your interpretation- as has also been pointed out above.Please back up your words ... what scriptrues have I ignored.take you seriouslyDo you take the Early Church Fathers seriously ... they taught purgatory and one kingdom (see below):The Early Church Fathers believed in purgatory before the final judgment.Origen (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. Clement of Alexandria (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 [A.D. 150-215]).The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God's righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, "yet" etc. Cyprian (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the LordThe Early Church Fathers taught one kingdom of glory and the eternity of Hell.Theophilus of Antioch (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.... [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortally by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . , For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire.Hippolytus (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: "Just is your judgment!" And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them.Cyprian of Carthage (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life.
livy111us Posted November 10, 2006 Posted November 10, 2006 Selek, You may get more explaining to a brick wall than attempting to have a dialogue with Johnny. It is utterly futile to reason with him. Any point you bring up will be ignored. I've told myself a hundred times not to dialogue with him because of this, but then he brings up things that are blatantly wrong and speak up to fix them. But then he starts his uneducated rhetoric and I remember why I don't speak to him.
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