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3 Degree Heaven Idea


hondo

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hondo,

Are their any other sources other then the scriptures to suggest that the three degree heaven idea was Christian and legitamately believed?

Early Christianity did not believe in three kingdoms of glory. The early Christians believed each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment. At death either entrance into the blessedness of heaven - through a purification or immediately, - or immediate and everlasting damnation.

All the just will be gathered together in the Father's presence at the time of Christ's glorious return. When we rise on the last day we "also will appear with him in glory" [Col 3:4]. All those he has redeemed and made "holy and blameless before him in love," [Eph 1:4] will be gathered together as the one People of God, the "Bride of the Lamb," [Rev 21:9] "the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God" [Rev 21:10-11].

The Early Church Fathers believed in purgatory before the final judgment.

Origen (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 [A.D. 185-232]).

If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. Clement of

Alexandria (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 [A.D. 150-215]).

The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God's righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, "yet" etc.

Cyprian (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord

The Early Church Fathers taught one kingdom of glory and the eternity of Hell.

Theophilus of Antioch (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181]).

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God.... [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortally by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . , For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire.

Hippolytus (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Standing before [Christ's] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: "Just is your judgment!" And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them.

Cyprian of Carthage (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life.

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Are their any other sources other then the scriptures to suggest that the three degree heaven idea was Christian and legitamately believed?

There are many - both in scripture and non scripture sources. The ancient Hebrews (and other civilizations) did not have the number system we are so accustom to in our modern socities. Most of the ancient world only used integer (counting) numbers. There were no fractions. When something was divided they would speak of parts. For example a â??third partâ? did not mean 1/3. It meant that there were three divisions or parts and that the divisions and parts were not necessarily the same size. The same with the symbolic use of the number 3 would represent three parts.

Thus we know that the number 3 or the notion of a third part has great significance. For example, that there are 3 in the G-dhead. There are many symbols of heaven (and humanity) being divided into three parts or associated with the number 3. For example, in the Book of Revelation is the symbol of a third part of the stars of heaven falling. This clearly indicates that the host of heaven was divided into 3 parts and not into the 2 part Heaven - Hell division as suggested in a previous post.

There is also the 3 sons of Noah that indicate the basic divisions of man in the mind of G-d; first the Covenant - represented by Shem. Second the Gentile - represented by Japheth. And third the Infidel - represented by Ham.

The number 3 shows up in many places as representative of heaven. Beside the G-dhead there is the ancient symbols of kingdoms of â??Goldâ?, â??Silverâ?, and â??Copperâ? that also show up as kingdoms of â??Sunâ?, â??Moonâ? and â??Starsâ?. Not only do these symbols of heaven show up in Jewish and Christian history as symbols of heavenly kingdoms; these symbols up in just about every religionâ??s symbols of heaven.

Of course there have always been those that take the scriptures and define only what they intend to be understood. The best example of this distortion is in the forth chapter of Luke where Satan uses scripture in a distorted way to tempt Jesus. Never-the-less the simple notion of 3 representing heavenly things (divisions) is overwhelming - both in scripture and traditions and not just the Jewish and Christian traditions - The concept of the number 3 as a symbol of heavenly parts is pervasive through almost all human civilizations.

The Traveler

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Are their any other sources other then the scriptures to suggest that the three degree heaven idea was Christian and legitamately believed?

Yes indeed. The ECF are quite clear on the divisions of salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven. For example.....

Our understanding of the passage [1 Corinthians 15:40-42] indeed is, that the Apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise in glory, i.e., of the saints, barrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, another glory of the stars." Origen, De Principiis 2:10:2, in ANF 4:294

"And some are connected with the Father, being part of Him, and next to these, those whom our argument now brings into clearer light, those who have come to the Saviour and take their stand entirely with him. And third are those of whom we spoke, who reckon the sun and the moon and the stars to be gods, and take their stand by them. And in the fourth and last place those who submit to soulless and dead idols." Origen, Commentary on John 2:3, in ANF 10:324-325

"And having said this, he ascends again to the heaven, saying, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon." For as in earthly bodies there is a difference, so also in the heavenly; and that difference no ordinary one, but reaching even to the uttermost: there being not only a difference betwen the sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory. What do we learn from hence? That although they be all in God's kingdom, all shall not enjoy the same reward; and though all sinners be in hell, all shall not endure the same punishment." John Chrysostom, Homilies on 1 Corinthians 41:4, in NPNF Series 1, 12:251

[Clement of Alexandria] reckons three kinds of actions, the first of which is ...right or perfect action, which is characteristic of the perfect man and Gnostic alone, and raises him to the height of glory. The second is the class of...medium, or intermediate actions, which are done by less perfect believers, and procure a lower grade of glory. In the third place, he reckons sinful actions, which are done by those who fall away from salvation. Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6:14, in ANF 2:506

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BCSpace,

Origen is not talking about "the divisions of salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven" he is talking about the different glories in the world (heaven/earth).

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04122.htm

3. Now we term world everything which is above the heavens, or in the heavens, or upon the earth, or in those places which are called the lower regions, or all places whatever that anywhere exist, together with their inhabitants. This whole, then, is called world. In which world certain beings are said to be super-celestial, i.e., placed in happier abodes, and clothed with heavenly and resplendent bodies; and among these many distinctions are shown to exist, the apostle, e.g., saying, " That one is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory."

Origen is not talking about "the divisions of salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven" he is talking about the different glories in the world, much like Rev 22:11 does.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101502.htm

Rev.22

[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And some men are connected with the Father, being part of Him, and next to these, those whom our argument now brings into clearer light, those who have come to the Saviour and take their stand entirely in Him. And third are those of whom we spoke before, who reckon the sun and the moon and the stars to be gods, and take their stand by them. And in the fourth and last place those who submit to soulless and dead idols.

John Chrysostom is not talking about "the divisions of salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven" he is talking about the different sinners and the different righteous in heaven.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/220141.htm

Now he makes, you see, first, one separation between righteous and sinners, where he says, "bodies celestial, and bodies terrestrial:" by the "terrestrial" intimating the latter, and by the "celestial," the former. Then farther he introduces a difference of sinners from sinners, saying, "All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of fishes, another of birds, and another of beasts." And yet all are bodies; but some are in more, and some in lesser vileness. And that in their manner of living too, and in their very constitution.

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Those seeking further light and knowledge might consult:

Paula Gooder

Only the Third Heaven?: 2 Corinthians 12:1-10 And Heavenly Ascent

(T. & T. Clark Publishers, forthcoming, Nov. 2006)

ISBN: 0567042448

(it's only $130 on Amazon)

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Those seeking further light and knowledge might consult:

Paula Gooder

Only the Third Heaven?: 2 Corinthians 12:1-10 And Heavenly Ascent

(T. & T. Clark Publishers, forthcoming, Nov. 2006)

ISBN: 0567042448

(it's only $130 on Amazon)

Before I rush out and not buy the book, I have child support and help with a couple of missionaries, what does Paula say in this book?

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Not only early Christianity should be looked at about also the views among the Jews in ancient times as well since Christianity grew out of Judism. I know for example that the Book of Enoch taked about 7 and even 10 levels of heavens.

urroner Posted Today, 11:32 AM

Where does the term "seventh heaven" come from?

The is a misunderstanding concerning the Book of Enoch. The concept of 6 heavens comes form an ancient calender that is referenced in the Book of Enoch and many other ancient text. It was believed anciently that the sun and stars exist in a "heaven". The sun would enter a different heaven through "gates" (places on the horizon) to the six heavens. These gates correspond to the months of the year through which the sun cycles to complete a year.

It was also believed that G-d resides in a 7th heaven that is above or beyond the six heavens of the sun, moon and stars.

Thought this is interesting stuff - I do not believe it applies to what we are engaging in for this thread.

The Traveler

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Papias, who copied down the traditions of the Apostles said "As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, "In my Father's house are many mansions: " (ANF 1:154, Fragments of Papias)

Irenaeus quoted him as well in the fragments.

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BCSpace,

Origen is not talking about "the divisions of salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven" he is talking about the different glories in the world (heaven/earth).

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04122.htm

3. Now we term world everything which is above the heavens, or in the heavens, or upon the earth, or in those places which are called the lower regions, or all places whatever that anywhere exist, together with their inhabitants. This whole, then, is called world. In which world certain beings are said to be super-celestial, i.e., placed in happier abodes, and clothed with heavenly and resplendent bodies; and among these many distinctions are shown to exist, the apostle, e.g., saying, " That one is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory."

LDS doctrine. I bolded the relevant parts. It is indeed a division related to salvation.

Origen is not talking about "the divisions of salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven" he is talking about the different glories in the world, much like Rev 22:11 does.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101502.htm

Rev.22

[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And some men are connected with the Father, being part of Him, and next to these, those whom our argument now brings into clearer light, those who have come to the Saviour and take their stand entirely in Him. And third are those of whom we spoke before, who reckon the sun and the moon and the stars to be gods, and take their stand by them. And in the fourth and last place those who submit to soulless and dead idols.

Yet more LDS doctrine. I bolded the relevant parts. Another list of divisions.

John Chrysostom is not talking about "the divisions of salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven" he is talking about the different sinners and the different righteous in heaven.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/220141.htm

Now he makes, you see, first, one separation between righteous and sinners, where he says, "bodies celestial, and bodies terrestrial:" by the "terrestrial" intimating the latter, and by the "celestial," the former. Then farther he introduces a difference of sinners from sinners, saying, "All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of fishes, another of birds, and another of beasts." And yet all are bodies; but some are in more, and some in lesser vileness. And that in their manner of living too, and in their very constitution.

And having said this, he ascends again to the heaven, saying, "There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon." For as in the earthly bodies there is a difference, so also in the heavenly; and that difference no ordinary one, but reaching even to the uttermost: there being not only a difference between sun and moon, and stars, but also between stars and stars. For what though they be all in the heaven? yet some have a larger, others a less share of glory. What do we learn from hence? That although they be all in God's kingdom, all shall not enjoy the same reward; and though all sinners be in hell, all shall not endure the same punishment. Wherefore he added,

Another list of divisions.

Clement of Alexandria, is not talking about "the divisions of salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven" he is talking about those not yet perfect, those perfect, and those who are beyond salvation.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/02106.htm

Not only then the believer, but even the heathen, is judged most righteously. For since God knew in virtue of His prescience that he would not believe, He nevertheless, in order that he might receive his own perfection gave him philosophy, but gave it him previous to faith. And He gave the sun, and the moon, and the stars to be worshipped; "which God," the Law says, made for the nations, that they might not become altogether atheistical, and so utterly perish. But they, also in the instance of this commandment, having become devoid of sense, and addicting themselves to graven images, are judged unless they repent; some of them because, though able, they would not believe God; and others because, though willing, they did not take the necessary pains to become believers. There were also, however, those who, from the worship of the heavenly bodies, did not return to the Maker of them. For this was the sway given to the nations to rise up to God, by means of the worship of the heavenly bodies. But those who would not abide by those heavenly bodies assigned to them, but fell away from them to stocks and stones, "were counted," it is said, "as chaff-dust and as a drop from a jar," beyond salvation, cast away from the body.

Now you've committed an error of correlation by presenting context that does not change the meaning of the quote I presented. Specifically, you have not addressed the fact that Clement reckons certain actions to raise people to different glories. Yet another set of divisions.

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livy111us,

Papias is talking about the different distinction that occur before the final judgment. Papias is not talking about three kingdoms of glory after final judgment like the LDS church teaches.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0125.htm

As the presbyters say, then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shah enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour will be seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him. But that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold; for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second class will dwell in Paradise, and the last will inhabit the city; and that on this account the Lord said, "In my Father's house are many mansions:" for all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place, even as His word says, that a share is given to all by the Father, according as each one is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch in which they shall recline who feast, being invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, say that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; and that, moreover, they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father; and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the apostle, "For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." For in the times of the kingdom the just man who is on the earth shall forget to die. "But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

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BCSpace,

Now you've committed an error of correlation

I have not "committed an error of correlation" ... I am being consistent with the Early Church teachings and Holy Scripture.

by presenting context that does not change the meaning of the quote I presented.

Please explain your meaning of the quotes, how it is about ""the divisions of salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven".

The context reveals that your intrepretation of "the divisions of salvation in the Kingdom of Heaven" is not consistent with the words of the early Christians or with scripture. The context is about different glories, not about different salvations. As Rev 22:11 reveals you can have different glories and not have different "divisions of salvation". Matt 25 reveals after Final Judgment their are only two divisions(the blessed and the cursed) and two states(everlasting fire and life eternal).

Rev.22

[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Matt.25

[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[41] Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

Specifically, you have not addressed the fact that Clement reckons certain actions to raise people to different glories. Yet another set of divisions.

Different glories are not different kingdoms of glory like the LDS church teaches. Read the words of Clement below, Clement is teaching exactly what the Catholic Church teaches and that is that their are those "not yet perfected" and those who are "perfect". At death each peson enters either the blessedness of heaven (through a purification or immediately) or immediate and everlasting damnation.

Clement of Alexandria, Stromata

But those who would not abide by those heavenly bodies assigned to them, but fell away from them to stocks and stones, "were counted," it is said, "as chaff-dust and as a drop from a jar," beyond salvation, cast away from the body.

As, then, to be simply saved is the result of medium actions, but to be saved tightly and becomingly is right action, so also all action of the Gnostic may be called tight action; that of the simple believer, intermediate action, not yet perfected according to reason, not yet made right according to knowledge; but that of every heathen again is sinful.

And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord.

The Early Church Fathers taught purgatory (see my earlier post). The early Christians taught those "not yet perfected" are purified in Purgatory before the Final Judgment. Those "not yet perfected" are assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Clement is not revealing the LDS teaching that after Final Judgment their are three kingdoms of glory and outer darkness (Gospel Principles Chapter 46)

LDS Gospel Principles Chapter 46 - THE LAST JUDGMENT

http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-58,00.html

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Johnny,

I can always expect some outrageous claim from you. I have rarely seen you post without you twisting scripture, or the words of the early Church Fathers.

I disagree with your assesment. It is laid out very clearly. Irenaeus in his fifth book says: And since (or, that) these things shall ever continue without end, Isaiah declares, "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I do make, continue in my sight, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain." And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy.

2. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions." (ANF 1:567)

He clearly states that this is an eternal thing. I would be curious to know as well, why a probationary state before the resurrection would be call "My Fathers house".

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livy111us,

I can always expect some outrageous claim from you.

How can it be outrageous, my view is consistent with scripture and the early Church Fathers.

Are you saying that the early Church Father's did not teach that some will be purified before Final Judgment?

I have rarely seen you post without you twisting scripture, or the words of the early Church Fathers.

Please show me how I have twisted the words of the early Church Fathers ... please back up your words.

Did the early Church Fathers teach about Purgatory?

I disagree with your assesment. It is laid out very clearly.

Maybe you can back-up your disagreement with scripture ... thanks.

He clearly states that this is an eternal thing.

What do you mean by "this is an eternal thing"?

The "abode in heaven" and the "mansions" are eternal. The "city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem " is eternal.

Heb.12

[1] Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

[22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

I would be curious to know as well, why a probationary state before the resurrection would be call "My Fathers house".

Because some members of the heavenly Jerusalem had to be "prepared" so that they would have the "glory of God".

Rev.21

[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

[11] Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

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Johnny,

You don't make a lick of sense here. But, that's what happens when you use scriptures that have nothing to do with what we are talking about. If your theory was correct, that would mean those who dwelt in the city would receive the smallest reward fof them all. Not one that was in heaven having the glory of God as Revelations is speaking about. That is TO much of a stretch on your part.

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livy111us,

You don't make a lick of sense here.

It makes complete sense ...

But, that's what happens when you use scriptures that have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Most likely it doesn't make sense to you because it appears you are not familiar with the scriptures of the Bible.

If your theory was correct, that would mean those who dwelt in the city would receive the smallest reward fof them all.

The theory is correct.

Why would you say those in the city would receive the smallest reward?

In the heavenly city their are the "the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb 12:23)

Heb.12

[22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Not one that was in heaven having the glory of God as Revelations is speaking about.

The "just men" are made perfect, when they are made perfect they then have the glory of God

That is TO much of a stretch on your part.

The LDS doctrine is TO much of a stretch. LDS doctrine is not consistent with what the Bible reveals. The Bible reveals that those in the heavenly City after final judgment will be with God and have the glory of God.

Rev.21

[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

[11] Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

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Johnny, did you actually read what I posted? And for that matter, did you read what you posted? Just because a scripture uses the term "city", you believe it must be the same thing which Papias and Irenaeus are quoting. That is not the matter at all and anyone who reads the quotes will come to the same conclusion.

The early fathers gave 3 examples of heaven. 1 is actually heaven itself, the highest, and is for those who produced 100 fold. 2 is paradise, for those who produced sixty-fold, and 3 is the city, those who produced thirty-fold. Now tell me, which would carry the most splendor? Heaven, paradise, or a city? The city is for those who produced the LESS. There is no way around that Johnny.

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The lost books of the bible, the forgotten books of Eden. The book of Enoch which was in the scriptures until the Laodicean council met in 362 A.D. and took it out in order to control the people.

In my Kingdom there are many mansions.

Every man shall receive according to his deeds.

Salvation does not mean you are Elect or Divine or godly, or Righteous. IT MEANS YOU ARE SALVAGED>

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livy111us,

Now tell me, which would carry the most splendor? Heaven, paradise, or a city? The city is for those who produced the LESS. There is no way around that Johnny.

For Papias those in the city produced less. Like I said earlier those in the city are "the spirits of just men made perfect (Heb 12:23)" ... before Final Judgment these men will be "perfect" before they enter the kindgom and life eternal (Matt 25:34,46).

Do you agree with the LDS teaching that their are three Kingdoms after Final Judgment ... I say that their is only one Kingdom after Final Judgment because this is what the Bible reveals?

Heb.12

[22] But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

[24] And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Matt.25

[31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

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Son,

In my Kingdom there are many mansions.

I would agree their are "many mansions". Before Final Judgment, Paul speaks of a "third heaven" (2Cor 12).

2Cor.12

[2] I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

[4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Every man shall receive according to his deeds.

I agree every man will be rewarded according to his work (Rev 22).

Matthew 5 describes these rewards.

Rev.22

[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

[12] And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Matt.5

[3] Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

[4] Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

[5] Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

[6] Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[7] Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

[8] Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

[9] Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

[10] Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

[11] Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

[12] Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Salvation does not mean you are Elect or Divine or godly, or Righteous.

All the righteous, all the believers will inherit the kingdom, life eternal, where God himself shall be with them and they will have the glory of God. After Final Judgment their are not "three kingdoms" like the LDS church teaches.

Matt.25

[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

[46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

Rev.21

[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

[8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

[11] Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

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Johnny, you crack me up! You wonder why many people don't take you seriously? Well, look at your blatant abilitly to ignore the obvious, and argue the wrong! You can't explain why the city is referred to as the least of the 3 kingdoms, and attempt to argue otherwise or else that would make your past statements wrong. Well, credibility is more important than being right all the time. Somthing you should think about.

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livy111us,

Well, look at your blatant abilitly to ignore the obvious, and argue the wrong!

The obvious is that before Final judgment "there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundredfold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold"

You can't explain why the city is referred to as the least of the 3 kingdoms,

Those in the city are referred to as the least because those members produced less. Scripture reveals their are three categories of "just" folks before Final Judgment: the filthy, the righteous, and the holy (Rev 22:11). Those in the city are the "filthy".

Rev.22

[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

attempt to argue otherwise or else that would make your past statements wrong.

Please explain how my past statements are wrong ...

Somthing you should think about.

Something you should think about is why LDS teachings are not consistent with what the Bible reveals. The Bible reveals one kingdom after final judgment and LDS teachings reveal their are three kingsoms after final judgmnet.

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