Cumulative Review Of Book Of Mormon Correlations

[Warship]

U Dale,

OK -- I assume you are working here from one of the modern LDS Hebrew translations of the BoM?

The LDS translations are in contemporary Hebrew, right?

At any rate, I would very much like to see a tabulation or compilation or illustration of WHERE

these Hebrew literary forms occur in the BoM text.

I have asked for this several times already in this thread, and nobody seems to have the spare

time to dig out their FARMS publications and transcribe the published listings.

I'm open to discussing this, if somebody will simply post here a listing of the BoM passages which

reputable LDS scholars say are conclusive evidence that the book was written in ancient Hebrew.

If the Mormons have such evidence, I would think that they would be trumpeting it from the roof-tops

and publishing the pictures of the concurring Hebrew language scholars (Prof. Rabin, etc.) on the covers

of the Deseret News and The Ensign.

?????

UD

CK's web site there seemed to have a pretty big list. That website is a little iffy imo but it seems like these lists are only a compilation of known chiasmus so should be accurate enough(at least that how it seemed at a glance).

While chiasmus may not be definitive proof, their inclusion is not one easily answered by alternative authorship theories. The sheer amount alone suggests prodigious understanding and affinity for chiasms by BOM authors. It is certainly what we would expect of an ancient hebraic document but not a fake. Their exclusion would be greater proof for fraud, but alas they are there.

And that people are still finding more continues to add to the time necessary for the construction of the literature in the BOM, making a 19th century production less and less likely.

As a sidenote, the PV may have many more chiasms than now recognized bc after reading the intro to the PV I found this

"Ximenez revised his first translation of the Indian document, deleting many repetitions which are peculiar to the Quiche language"

The impression I was left with was that these repetitions were still considered undesirable as they do not please the asthetics of the European mind. Many of those repetitions are probably due to chiasmus. It is these same repetitions in the BOm that in part caused Mark Twain to call the BOM clorophorm in print. Later we find these repetitions are chiasms.

As far as trumpeting the results, many LDS books have included information about chiasmus. Even if the mormon's had an authentic hieroglyphic tablet that read " I Mormon, writer of the BOM, slept here"

and they ran it on every tv station in the country I doubt their numbers would increase much. Critics would simply say that this could be any person totally unrelated to the BOM. Proof is only proof in the eye of the beholder.

PS. I looked at the web pages again and they seem very nice to me ...everything comes up quickly. I have a nice connection and computer though...the dial up scenario you mentioned before is probably only a problem for those with dial up.

[Brant Gardner]

As a sidenote, the PV may have many more chiasms than now recognized

Check out Allen J. Christenson's translations of the Popol Vuh. He finds that various parallelisms, including chiasms, are present in the text. This is actually much more impressive that those who find them in the English text because he has found them in the Quiche. I was suspicious of the claim, but checked him out. Now - his Quiche is expert and mine is rudimentary, but I could tell that he was finding accurate patterns.

[grego]

About "sheum" and the Jaredites:

From Sorenson:

Nibley also emphasizes that terms in the Nephite system of money and grain measures described in Alma 11 "bear Jaredite names," obvious examples being "shiblon" and "shiblum."16 Can we tell how these foreign words came into use among the Nephites? One possibility is that Coriantumr learned enough of the language of the "Mulekites" in the nine final months of his life which he spent among them to pass on a number of words. Another possibility is that the terms came from Mosiah's translation of Ether's plates (see Mosiah 28:11-13, 17). But Alma 11:4 makes clear that the names of weights and measures were in use among the Nephites long before Mosiah had read Ether's record.

----------------

****Let's take a look at Alma 11:4: " Now these are the names of the different pieces of their gold, and of their silver, according to their value. And THE NAMES ARE GIVEN BY THE NEPHITES, for they did not reckon after the manner of the Jews who were at Jerusalem; neither did they measure after the manner of the Jews; but THEY ALTERED THEIR RECKONING AND THEIR MEASURE, according to the minds and the circumstances of the people, in every generation, UNTIL THE REIGN OF THE JUDGES, THEY HAVING BEEN ESTABLISHED BY KING MOSIAH."

It was King Mosiah, who had the Jaredite stone and plates and their translations who established them. (And Moroni says his translation/ abridgement--the book of Ether--was "a hundredth part" or so of the plates.)

Now, were the names and the reckoning and the measure changed too? Continuing reading, it says,

"Now the reckoning is thus--a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum of gold, and a limnah of gold" (Alma 11:5). . ."A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain" (Alma 11:7).

Then, "Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning--" (Alma 11:14)

"A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of barley" (Alma 11:15). It seems that the name of the reckoning is included.

Well, if the reckoning changes, then when in his reign did he do this? It sounds like he set it up for the new ruling of the judges, which means long after the records of the Jaredites were translated. King Mosiah could have just used the Jaredite system, including that names--that he had read about in the records--to establish the Nephite system, and found it easier to call them by their original names.

Do any of the Jaredite names appear in the Book of Mormon BEFORE the discovery of the Jaredite records? None!

Once more, first the Jaredite records, then the Jaredite things.

[Warship]

Brant,

Thanks, I'll take a look at that...sounds interesting. I would like to see a full translation that remains as close to the Quiche as possible.

[Brant Gardner]

Brant,

Thanks, I'll take a look at that...sounds interesting. I would like to see a full translation that remains as close to the Quiche as possible.

Warship:

Christenson's is the one you want. He published part of it through FARMS - but that isn't the one I am talking about.

Popol Vuh, Volume 2: Literal Poetic Version (Paperback)

[Warship]

Brant,

Thank you much. I was hoping he had done a full translation. I'll have to get a copy soon.

BTW, I was wondering if you knew how many codices have actually survived...I thought it was only a handful with the Dresden as the largest. Is that right?

I just couldn't recall while I was thinking about this the other day.

Thanks again.

[Chris Smith]

Brant,

Thank you much. I was hoping he had done a full translation. I'll have to get a copy soon.

BTW, I was wondering if you knew how many codices have actually survived...I thought it was only a handful with the Dresden as the largest. Is that right?

I just couldn't recall while I was thinking about this the other day.

Thanks again.

Warship,

You might be interested to learn that I contacted the BYU Studies people and got them to fix the link to their statistical chiasmus analyzer. You might go download it and check your helaman chiasm to see how it holds up statistically.

http://byustudies.byu.edu/chiasmus/

I also have a copy of the source code, which Dr. Edwards provided by email.

-CK

[Warship]

CK,

Thank you very much. I actually had no idea they even offered such a program for download. I will definitely do that very soon and let you know the results.

I appreciate that greatly.

Thanks CK

[Brant Gardner]

BTW, I was wondering if you knew how many codices have actually survived...I thought it was only a handful with the Dresden as the largest. Is that right?

As I remember, it is the Dresden, Paris, Madrid, Tro-Cortesianus and Grolier. Add to that the one found by the NWAF in situ - but which cannot be opened yet because the pages are fused together.

[Warship]

Thanks for indulging me Brant, I appreciate it. And thanks for the PV translation.