Plain English BMG - Book of Mormon cities have

[Cumorah3]

I'm sorry, the academic world cannot respond to "quite a few" unnamed artifacts. If you want people to take your claims seriously, it would be advantageous to produce some tangible evidence for us to examine, whether lay people or scholars.

Your attitude is exactly that of most experts and professionals.

I provided a photo of something that could be a sample of Reformed Egyptian writing. But you immediately write it off as "nothing remarkable..."

Are you that well qualified that you can with just a quick glance at a photo declare with authority that there is nothing remarkable about that artifact? Can you read the writing? Is it familiar to you? Are you better qualified than the LDS scholar who is holding it and thinks it is deserving of scientific examination?

And after so quickly writing that one off as a "fake" you cry out for "evidence."

Why not work on one thing at a time first?

Your comments are exactly representitive of the kind of attitude among experts and professionals that I've been writing about on this board for several weeks now...

[structurecop]

I provided a photo of something that could be a sample of Reformed Egyptian writing. But you immediately write it off as "nothing remarkable..."

Are you that well qualified that you can with just a quick glance at a photo declare with authority that there is nothing remarkable about that artifact? Can you read the writing? Is it familiar to you? Are you better qualified than the LDS scholar who is holding it and thinks it is deserving of scientific examination?

And after so quickly writing that one off as a "fake" you cry out for "evidence."

Cumorah3, I would be more than happy to carefully look at clear, properly lit photographs of the bas relief writing that I can discern from the grainy picture you posted. From where I stand, it is nothing extraordinary. Not to mention, where did you find it? At what strata? What other artifacts were near this one? What material is the object? What kind of tools were used in its fabrication? What cultic purpose did it serve? Are there others that have been found? There's a lot more to archaeology than flashing pictures of objects, just like there's more to anthropology than pictures of Bigfoot. The burden of proof lies with you when you make these discoveries. How do you know that by moving the object from the site for this trophy picture, you did not destroy all the surrounding evidence that would have vindicated your claims?

I cannot compare my qualifications to unnamed "LDS scholars" making hypothetical correlations between an object of unknown significance and an unknown writing system. Maybe if I had some more details I could comment definitively.

[Cumorah3]

Cumorah3, I would be more than happy to carefully look at clear, properly lit photographs...

Are you a credentialed archaeologist or anthropologist?

If so, and you are seriously interested in examining that and other artifacts, I can arrange for you to have a viewing, and to be provided with the complete history.

I apologize that the photo appears to be grainy on your screen and you can't therefore conduct a proper examination. It's the best I could do tonight....

[structurecop]

Cumorah3, I would be more than happy to carefully look at clear, properly lit photographs...

Are you a credentialed archaeologist or anthropologist?

If so, and you are seriously interested in examining that and other artifacts, I can arrange for you to have a viewing, and to be provided with the complete history.

I apologize that the photo appears to be grainy on your screen and you can't therefore conduct a proper examination. It's the best I could do tonight....

I have to admit, as nice as it would be to say that I have any of the above qualifications, I am not a credentialed archaeologist or anthropologist.

I would be, however, very interested in seeing better pictures of this and any other artifacts you have discovered. I'm sure everyone here would be. I know you probably have books in the works and other reasons for not posting more substantive material, but anything with which you could provide us would be nice. I'll break out my old Gardner's Egyptian Grammar and see what I can find out to corroborate your findings.

Just to provide you a little background, I was once an avid follower of developments in "BMG" as you call it. Later I learned a lot of what I had been taking for fact was in reality absolute speculation or fabrications. Since then I have been leary of accepting any supposed evidence without careful inspection first. I think you would find a better reception if you were more open and specific about what evidence you have found in Mesoamerica that makes you so certain of their validity.

-Edited to cover up public school education.

[Cumorah3]

I'll break out my old Gardner's Egyptian Grammar and see what I can find out to corroborate your findings.

Since then I have been leary of accepting any supposed evidence without careful inspection first. I think you would find a better reception if you were more open and specific about what evidence you have found in Mesoamerica that makes you so certain of their validity.

Thank-you for being honest.

The way I understand it, among other things, it was Gardner's Egyptian Grammar that was used to identify the symbol pronounced "mrrr ahn eye" that some people think is Moroni's signature.

A good example of that symbol is carved into the "Signature Rock" located today behind the ranger station at Filmore, Utah. Anyone can go there and look at it. It was brought into town by the rangers to protect it after it broke off from the main body of the message back in the hills on government land. It is thought of highly by many local people. The boy scouts built a roof to shelter the rock that could possibly be Moroni's signature. Common people often have a wisdom and an intuitive way of knowing things that arm-of-flesh professionals have had excised from their minds as they walked perhaps too long in the rarified hallways of academia.

There are at least twenty other known USA locations where unique messages are carved into rocks, some of them bearing that "signature".

But there is no need for more amateur explorers, treasure hunters, or thrill seekers to seek after them. They are already known to non-professionals, some of whom have devoted years of their lives and much of their financial resources looking into such things.

Everything is on hold right now, the stories whispered only amongst a few, and now some of them hinted at on this board. The explorers and finders are waiting for the professionals to wake up from the deep sleep their discipline and skeptical environment has imposed on them, and do something more than just hear about the discoveries, crack open a window somewhere high up in their ivory tower, and toss down a stick or a stone with one single learned word carved into it: "FAKE".

Some of the messages carved into rocks in the mountains of Utah are pointed to by holes carved into other rocks, and shadow glyphs that can only be seen at certain times of the day, etc. That may be the way the ancients communicated, or as I like to say "left their footprints behind" to be found in our day.

Until tested and proven otherwise, it is my opinion that samples of Nephite writings (let's call it that instead of "Reformed Egyptian") are staring us in the face, as are the Mayan ruins of Mesoamerica that Dr. Clark thinks (some of them at least) may be Nephite cities.

You won't find a lot written about such things as Moroni's "signature" because of it's uncertain nature, the controversy that surrounds it, the quickly tossed labels of "fake", "fool", "crippled horse", etc.; and because of possible vandalism if the general public and treasure hunters knew the location of things that could some day be proven sacred to the Latter-day Saints.

You say: "evidence you have found in Mesoamerica that makes you so certain of their validity."

But I am not "certain of" the validity of the things I am writing about, including the artifact in the photo I posted. If I was, why would I be asking for it to be scientifically tested? I too am looking for "careful inspection."

I'm not saying the things I write about are "evidence" of anything other than the possibility that such things may really be credible evidence; so it is my opinion that they are worthy of "careful inspection". (A fingerprint is a fingerprint, even though it may not be from the person of interest.)

But combined with other things such as similar (I think) writings found on artifacts in Mesoamerica as in the USA, I personally think it's worth a good study by some daring credentialed professional. (Or at least some professional's promising graduate student, who might be able to do things without jeopardizing his/her career, and would report back to the professional who could then make and publish the "discovery" at an appropriate time if such were made.)

I don't understand why there is so much enmity among some LDS experts and others about such possibilities. I am sometimes greeted on this board with much less than friendliness. But perhaps that's the nature of this medium. And yes, I admit that I tend to take things personally even though warned not to.

I do understand skepticism however, given the burgeoning fake industry in Mexico, and the enemies of the LDS Church who would be quick to jump on anything that gave the appearance that the Mormons were looking for "evidence" that the Book of Mormon is true. (The inference being of course that we don't already know that.)

If Nephite writings were authenticated by the professionals, wouldn't it advance the work of promoting the Book of Mormon in a unique attention-getting way whereby it is probable that many more people would actually read the book, and some of them would apply Moroni's spiritual test?

In my mind that's important enough to make worth the risk that some non-LDS professional might think less of an LDS credentialed pro because he/she looked into something as a possible physical evidence that Nephites once actually lived in the Americas.

Come on folks, we know the Nephites were here! Shall we awaken, shake off the chains that bind us, and clamor for the professionals (or their graduate students) to actively join in the pursuit of physical evidences? We seem to be our own worst enemies right now.

That's how I see it today.

It is my hope that the LDS writers and experts on this board would at least not be so openly critical and sometimes scoffing about things pertaining to Book of Mormon Geography. It's that kind of seemingly superior attitude (sometimes in the name of "science") that keeps BMG things "hush hush" to the point where the common people will no longer turn over anything found in the caves of Utah to BYU professors; because those things just disappear and are never again heard of.

It's not pleasant to face controversy and contention. I am not trying to foist anything onto anyone. I'm just a fellow traveler along the road, seeking to find the truth of all things.

In the BMG threads I started, I'm asking for a few promising things found by non-professionals to be tested by our Church-paid experts. So what if they're biased towards the Book of Mormon? Why shouldn't they be? They BELIEVE that book to be true, and they are employed by a private Church owned and sponsored university.

Although you may not like the way I write sometimes, it might help if some of you who agree with what I am trying to do would make yourselves known on this board, and would do whatever you uniquely can to move forward this quest to find and prove physical evidences of Nephites in the Americas.

As Latter-day Saints, we owe those people so much. Shouldn't we do our very best to help them rise from the dust?

Signature Rock at Filmore, Utah Ranger Station

(Look that symbol up in Gardner's and let us know what you find- I haven't done that myself.)

[structurecop]

The way I understand it, among other things, it was Gardner's Egyptian Grammar that was used to identify the symbol pronounced "mrrr ahn eye" that some people think is Moroni's signature.

Signature Rock at Filmore, Utah Ranger Station

(Look that symbol up in Gardner's and let us know what you find- I haven't done that myself.)

Fascinating. I will do that today.

[Cumorah3]

But combined with other things such as similar (I think) writings found on artifacts in Mesoamerica as in the USA, I personally think it's worth a good study by some daring credentialed professional.

I inquired about the possibility I suggested that writings found in Mesoamerica are similar to those carved in rocks in Utah.

I was informed that they are not similar at all; that Reformed Egyptian is designed to interact with the Urim and Thummin and the petroglyph messages are not.

So, shall we then call the unidentified writings found in Mesoamerica such as those on the round stone shaped like a lock that I showed above: "Possible Reformed Egyptian Writings" and the unidentified (by professionals) petroglyph writings in Utah: "Possible Nephite Writings"?

[Cumorah3]

According to Mormon, there was not one righteous Nephite or Lamanite warrior during the time of Mormon. There were certainly no men of God, Nephite or Lamanite at the battle of Cumorah, excluding Mormon and Moroni.

I missed this--do you have more info?

Sorry Grego, it looks like I missed this too...

As well as being mentioned in my post above, that appears in Dr. Ainsworth's response to Brant Gardner's criticisms:

6. Four hundred years after thousands of Nephites and members of the People of Ammon went into the land Northward, Mormon appears on the scene. From what he says, there was not one righteous Nephite or Lamanite in the land of Zarahemla or the land of Nephi during his life time. In fact, they were so wicked that the Lord would not allow Mormon to preach to them. Yet, in Moroni 7:1-4, Mormon

[Cumorah3]

I once wrote a letter to BYU about something similar.

[structurecop]

Signature Rock at Filmore, Utah Ranger Station

(Look that symbol up in Gardner's and let us know what you find- I haven't done that myself.)

Hi Cumorah3,

Just an update, I have been searching through my copy of Gardiner's and have not found an appropriate combination of symbols to create the petroglyph here. The eye (I assume that is what is in the middle) is not of the Egyptian style, and the lines radiating out are not found in conjunction with the eye symbols I have found. The rectangular shape above (?) above and the "M" shape are also defying definition. I continue searching, though.

Update -- the eye symbol with the object curving over the top does have a loosely Egyptian equivalent as an alternative to the "eye touched up with paint," Definition: Det. actions or conditions of eye, exx, dgi "look"; sp "blind"; rs "be wakeful".

[Cumorah3]

Regarding Dr. Poulsen's comment in another thread:

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=17921

Here is a picture of some of the text

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa...55183414B7F0000

Larry P

My response is a bit off the topic of newly discovered Olmec writings, so I thought it more appropriate to make it in this thread.

I didn't know it but find it interesting that the article says:

"Several pairs of images crop up more than once, suggesting to the researchers a common feature of Mesoamerican languages called a poetic couplet."

A few weeks ago I was with an experienced guide at some petroglyphs near Cedar City, Utah. He pointed out that the message contained symbols that were repeated several times. Nobody there at the time seemed to know the reason why the same symbols would have been repeated.

It may be quite a stretch without further evidence, but hey I'm an amateur, could that repetition be an indication that those petroglyphs in Utah are possibly related to "Mesoamerican languages"?

[thesometimesaint]

The Book of Mormon repetedly mentions Jerusalem. Jersalem exists today. Ipso facto The Book of Mormon is true.

[Cumorah3]

The Book of Mormon repetedly mentions Jerusalem. Jersalem exists today. Ipso facto The Book of Mormon is true.

[Cumorah3]

Possible Jaredite era stone found by a farmer at the Cumorah3 site - June 14, 2006. This stone was moved from the field where it was found, to a nearby village two weeks before we arrived there. No other Americans had seen this stone before us. Dr. Ainsworth was not interested in it after seeing it, and does not think it has a Book of Mormon connection.

Just thought you might be interested....

[structurecop]

Definitely an interesting piece but I would be interested in what makes you label it "Possible Jaredite stone."

[Cumorah3]

Definitely an interesting piece but I would be interested in what makes you label it "Possible Jaredite stone."

I'm far from being an expert or even knowledgeable, but I have been through an Olmec museum in Mexico and that stone seems to be similar to some of the artifacts in that museum. Dr. Ainsworth, if I remember correctly, also is of that opinion.

Could easily be wrong though...

[Cumorah3]

Dr. Poulsen has started what appears to be a "beginner's course" on BMG. But it's in the "School of the Pundits."

I'm not sure if he is aware that ordinary people like me cannot post in that place, and because of that, perhaps only a few "Pundits" read it??

He is welcome to copy everything to this BMG thread where everyone can interact, not just a chosen few. Or, of course, start his own thread if he'd sooner...

Here's the link:

http://www.fairboards.org/index.php?showtopic=17985

[poulsenll]

Dr. Poulsen has started what appears to be a "beginner's course" on BMG. But it's  in the "School of the Pundits."

I'm not sure if he is aware that ordinary people like me cannot post in that place, and because of that, perhaps only a few "Pundits" read it??

I started this in the Pundits so there would be less distraction for those who want to take my challenge to develop there on BoM geography by using the tools that are available to all of us. I will also start a thread where those who do not have access to post questions and or successes.

The pundit thread is designed as a tutorial with some order to it, rather than a discussion. I have an outline of the mateial I will present but have not filled in the details. I am hoping that some of the other pundits will help me to fill in those details. It would be nice if Brant could post some of the insights that he presented at the FAIR conference but it is up to him to volunteer or not. It is sort of like a lecture course without the lecture. Any discussion will take place on a thread available to all. I will monitor the discussion, but will not promise to take part in it or to attempt to discuss concepts out of the concept of helping people to understand the process of developing a personal view of BoM geography.

Larry P

[Brant Gardner]

Larry:

I don't mind sharing the things I know something about - but as I have confessed before - geography isn't one of the <grin>. For some reason I haven't the patience to work out a geography - but if someone else points to one I can see if it fits the culture and history of the area.

If there is place for that, let me know.

[poulsenll]

Larry:

I don't mind sharing the things I know something about - but as I have confessed before - geography isn't one of the <grin>. For some reason I haven't the patience to work out a geography - but if someone else points to one I can see if it fits the culture and history of the area.

If there is place for that, let me know.

Brant

I am not sure at this time just how this is going to develop over time. We may come up with some new ideas and then maybe not. One idea I played around with at one time was the existance of two narrow necks. One at Tehuantepec and another at the base of the Yucatan peninsula with the references to lands in the north at times refering to one or the other or maybe even both.

The other is the question if there were two bountifuls or was the word bountiful maybe used in two or more different ways in the text.

I would be particularly interested in a short essay on the difference between convergence and parallels. I am convinced that one of the tests of a good geography is that it brings new insight to the meaning of the text and explains some aspect of the story that is unclear without understanding the geography.

Come on. Don't be a coward. Take the challenge.

Larry P

[thesometimesaint]

Cumorah3:

Well a "little" bit of sarcasim was intended. But there is point to be made in it. The point is that the mention of various unsubstantiated or even substantiated places in the Bible is not indicative of the validity of its truth claims. Just as substantiated, and unsubstantiated places in the Book of Mormon can't address the truth claims of it.

I think that Sorenson makes a valid argument as to the location of Zarahemla, and some of the general terrain desribed in the Book of Mormon. I eagerly await more.

[Cumorah3]

Plain English Book of Mormon Geography.

It is my observation that there is a lot of interest in Book of Mormon Geography (BMG) on this FAIR board. It is also my observation that most of the currently active threads seem to be mainly scholarly talk among those who have a good background in such things as Mayan history. That's interesting reading of course, but I thought it might be useful to concurrently run a "Plain English" Book of Mormon Geography thread for those like me who haven't spent so much time in school. (Scholars are invited to participate of course, but please try to keep this thread plain English rather than a discussion amongst yourselves, thanks.)

Everyone is invited to also discuss pertinent related matters in this thread.

Today I published on the Mormon Sites Website the final part of a series of plain English articles written by Dr. Jerry L. Ainsworth, an LDS scholar, on the location of the original hill Ramah Cumorah.

Here's a link:

http://mormonsites.org/page5.html#series