Trinity, Trinity, Trinity.

[Texan in DC]

Doctor Steuss,

I believe the biggest difference in the Trinity belief and the triad belief if I may call it that, is the mainstrean christian view is that there is one God, therefore the Holy Spirit is the way God shares his power, love, and ability to make his church infallible or people in certain matters, and Jesus being God is also apart of this mystery. Lets take note of the last word of the previous sentence, mystery! The trinity belief is defined, dots are connected in our interpretation of the bible and oral tradition passed down since the time of of the apostles. The triad belief goes one step further in my opinion and tries to to explain the three god in one god concept, beyon the mysteries. As a Catholic or other-christian we see the triad concept used and even beyond the triad concept since there is the ability to have gods before our God and we too become a god.

[Texan in DC]

I would really like it if a Trinitarian could explain the Trinity using mathematical notation. Something like:

F is a subset of G

S is a subset of G

H is a subset of G

F is not equal to S

S is not equal to H

H is not equal to F

But then again, perhaps even the abstraction of mathematics would not suffice. I say that because it is a mathematical contradiction to assert

F = G

S = G

and

F =/= S

The only way around this is to change the meaning of = one possibility being my subset example.

This may also be a bit too much, but do the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have distinct consciousness, or is it all one consciousness--God's consciousness. Maybe that question is silly and doesn't even make sense. I grant that I don't even fully know what consciousness is let alone what it would mean for God.

I'm not saying Trinitarianism is nonsense. I'm just trying to understand it in my language as it were.

Easy

(G) * (J) * (H) = 1 like 1 x 1 x 1 = 1

meaning God is one

(G + J + H) = 3 = (G * J * H) (Showing 3 persons = one God)

If you were going to count three person

you would not count this way

1 + 2 + 3 = 3

but you would count this way

1 + 1 + 1 = 3

now when the church speaks infallibly or through the course of our 2000 year history we are acting as one with God

G * CC = 1

at times when we move away from the Church teachings we can seperate ourselves from the teachings of Jesus and the church that we beleive is in fact 1, so sometimes the OC meaing other christian loses the value of 1 and the new value is 2 or more depending on new views

G * OC = 2 or more

Now there are 33,000 different denominations in the protestant world.

G * D (for denominations) = 33,000

When we walk with God in our christian faith and have not comitted a mortal sin we are one with God

G * M (man) = 1

but when we sin we seperate ourselves from God's unitity so we become a different value since our value is not equal to God

G * FM (fallen man) = 2

[Doctor Steuss]

And this thread shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and Doctor Steussâ?? speech shall be low out of the dust, and his voice shalt sayâ?¦

The term â??Godheadâ? is utilized quite a bit in Mormonism, but Iâ??m wondering if this term (which appears scantly in the NT) has any status within Trinitarian dialogue/thought. In Trinitarian thought, what does this term signify? Is it a term for all three members of the Trinity collectively, or is it more of a reference to their powers and/or duties?

(If the above question doesnâ??t make sense, I can try to reword it a bit).

And a reminder (for newcomers) this is NOT a debate thread.

[rhinomelon]

Hey Doc, glad you brought this thread up from the grave (saving us from all sorts of necromantic spells to resurrect it later)!

As far as the term "Godhead" goes, I see it being used more regarding the Trinity collectively, not so much in terms of the powers/roles of each member. One could almost say that the Trinity and the Godhead are synonymous; "Trinity" might be used more simply because it's more descriptive. It literally means "three in unity".

Personally, I might be more averse to using "Godhead", simply because using it with my LDS friends can cause more confusion than it's worth. I've lived around LDS most of my life, so its probably a harder habit for me to break. I don't think Christians in other places would have such a hangup.

Did I understand your question right? If not, just say so!

And thank you for reminding why I spend time on these boards. I've been wondering what I'm doing here lately (might impose a one-month suspension on myself!).

Take care, everyone

[Doctor Steuss]

As far as the term "Godhead" goes, I see it being used more regarding the Trinity collectively, not so much in terms of the powers/roles of each member. One could almost say that the Trinity and the Godhead are synonymous; "Trinity" might be used more simply because it's more descriptive. It literally means "three in unity".

That's what I figured, but I wanted to make sure (given that Iâ??m not even sure what the scriptures necessarily mean by the term). The few passages where "Godhead" is used seem to go back and forth as to what it means exactly. First there is:

Acts 17: 29

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and manâ??s device.

In this verse, it definitely appears that â??Trinityâ? could take the place of â??Godheadâ? without altering the meaning of the verse.

Rom. 1: 20

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

But this verse makes it sound almost like a position of authority. Using â??Trinityâ? in this verse would seem to alter the meaning.

And then thereâ??s Col. 2: 9

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Iâ??m not sure how to even interpret this one from an LDS POV.

Mind hooking me up with a Trinitarian exegesis?

[Paul Ray]

And a reminder (for newcomers) this is NOT a debate thread.

It isn't?

... really?

What is a debate?

What is it you want to avoid?

Do you not want to hear what others think about what others say?

[Doctor Steuss]

It isn't?

Well, it certainly has been one at certain points, but overall I think it has avoided the clasification.

... really?

Do you doubt it?

What is a debate?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/debate

What is it you want to avoid?

A debate.

Do you not want to hear what others think about what others say?

Sure, if it will lead to understanding of the mainstream Christian belief in the Trinity. If you want to try to find "flaws" in the belief, or argue why it doesn't make sense, or can't be right... start your own thread.

[rhinomelon]

Actually, seeing those three references all together like that makes me think of "Godhead" more akin to the term "divinity" than the whole Trinity. When you asked the question, the only reference I could think of was the Colossians 2 one, so I started along those lines. I might have to dig into this a bit in order to give a better answer. The earlier one was off-the-cuff, and sometimes those aren't the best!

More later, I'm sure. Take care, everyone

[Paul Ray]

Sure, if it will lead to understanding of the mainstream Christian belief in the Trinity. If you want to try to find "flaws" in the belief, or argue why it doesn't make sense, or can't be right... start your own thread.

Okay, I think I understand what you mean now.

You want to better understand the mainstream Christian belief in the Trinity.

I have discussed that, and can continue to discuss that... based on what I once believed when I was among them. And frankly, I was surprised by some people in General Conference when they said they didn't understand the concept.

There is only one God, and God is more than one person.

I don't see why anyone needs to be confused about that.

The Bible makes it very clear about how they are one, and how they are still different persons.

If you have questions, though, I'll try to help you understand it.

[rhinomelon]

Hey Doc, just did a quick search on "Godhead" with the Strong's concordance, and it is interesting to note that each time that term pops up in the English translation, a slightly different form of the base word "theos" is being used. Here's the link: http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/wor...mp;word=godhead

Just click on the smaller numbers next to the word, and it takes you to the Greek lexicon side of things. Quite interesting. Actually, both of my earlier answers were correct in their respective contexts. "Divinity" is indeed a possible way to translate the term, and it is this usage that Paul uses in Romans. Perhaps that might help your interpretation

Take care, everyone

[emeliza]

You want to better understand the mainstream Christian belief in the Trinity.

I have discussed that, and can continue to discuss that... based on what I once believed when I was among them. And frankly, I was surprised by some people in General Conference when they said they didn't understand the concept.

There is only one God, and God is more than one person.

I don't see why anyone needs to be confused about that.

The Bible makes it very clear about how they are one, and how they are still different persons.

If you have questions, though, I'll try to help you understand it.

The confusion is generally in how they are only one God and God is more than one person. That is confusing to many people. Myself included. I get the idea behind it, but can't quite grasp the whole concept. That is why there are 11 pages of this thread of asking questions and getting replies.

I would say the Bible isn't that clear about how they are one and how they are still different if so many people disagree.

I think this thread is great because we hear ideas from people who believe on in the concept of the Trinity and how it works without the debate of whether this idea is right or wrong.

[emeliza]

Hey Doc, just did a quick search on "Godhead" with the Strong's concordance, and it is interesting to note that each time that term pops up in the English translation, a slightly different form of the base word "theos" is being used.

Quite interesting. "Divinity" is indeed a possible way to translate the term, and it is this usage that Paul uses in Romans. Perhaps that might help your interpretation

Cool!

[cdowis]

It isn't?

... really?

What is a debate?

What is it you want to avoid?

Do you not want to hear what others think about what others say?

This thread is discussing various terms, rather than the doctrine itself. Personally I prefer to distinguish the terms as "Trinity" and "Triune". Or "Godhead/Trinity" and "homoousia".

[Paul Ray]

The confusion is generally in how they are only one God and God is more than one person. That is confusing to many people. Myself included. I get the idea behind it, but can't quite grasp the whole concept. That is why there are 11 pages of this thread of asking questions and getting replies.

I often used, and still use, the idea of how there is only one Man and Man is more than one person.

... when I was a member of mainstream Christian religion(s).

Even then I understood that our Father was a separate person than His son, Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior, and the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) was also a distinct and separate person, while they were all one, in unity, together.

I would say the Bible isn't that clear about how they are one and how they are still different if so many people disagree.

I think so many people disagree because they are trying to harmonize the teaching in the Holy Bible with the teachings of certain men who met at the council of Nicea. But even what that council decided upon can still be seen to be true if it is properly interpreted using the Holy Bible... or at least I think it can be. We just have to use the Holy Bible as the main text when understanding what they were thinking, instead of trying to make the Bible conform to their teachings.

I think this thread is great because we hear ideas from people who believe on in the concept of the Trinity and how it works without the debate of whether this idea is right or wrong.

Yeah, I can see the merit in that.

I think we should only be sharing what we each personally believe and let the collective church(es) each speak for themselves, collectively.

[flavo]

Doctor Steuss,

Kudos to you for sincerely trying to understand a foreign belief.

Unfortunately, there are two stumbling blocks preventing us from currently obtaining a perfect understanding of God's Triune nature.

The first obstacle is our limit of understanding, as Paul says, we "see as through a glass, darkly".

The second obstacle is that God is unique, which necessarily means that there is nothing for us to compare Him to, by way of analogy. So any attempts of "God is like a/an..." is doomed from the start, having fatal flaws, always being limited.

As to your Sun and sun's rays analogy, I don't really like it, as it seems to make the Father the "substantial" aspect of God, and the Son and Holy Spirit simply tangential components. Also, the analogy sounds too much like the LDS understanding of the Godhead for my tastes.

The "water" analogy doesn't work.

The "moutains" analogy does't work.

The "three hats" analogy doesn't work.

There is no adequate analogy, not because the Trinity is false, but simply because god is unique, and there is nothing with which to compare Him.

It seems to me that the biggest stumbling block is to try to get past the assumption that "one person equals one god", as it is something not taught in the Bible, and seems to be an assumption that non-Trinitarians always bring with them.

The terminology can also be a stumbling block. It seems that when Trinitarians speak of the "persons" of the Trinity, or "personages", others assume it to mean something like "bodily being". In the Trinitarian context, all it means is that there are distinct (notice the difference between distinct and separate) identities with personal attributes. Rhino might be able to expound on that a bit better.

Hope that helps.

Theophilus

John 17:3

[rhinomelon]

John 17:3

Colossians 2:9

[flavo]

Colossians 2:9

Matthew 3:16-17

[rhinomelon]

Matthew 3:16-17

Deuteronomy 25:11-12

[Doctor Steuss]

Jer. 8: 15

[emeliza]

Deuteronomy 25:11-12

Huh? I missed how this fits in with the Trinity.....but the shocked face goes well.

Jer. 8: 15

Too funny! I had a feeling about this one before I read it.

[asbestosman]

Gad 2:3

Lehi 7:9

[Doctor Steuss]

Gad 2:3

Lehi 7:9

Did you find some sealed plates?

[emeliza]

Gad 2:3

Lehi 7:9

LOL, okay Gal 2:3 goes really well with Deu 25:11-12. Not sure if that is what you meant and have no idea what book Lehi is in....

[asbestosman]

The only people who can read the lost books are those who have lost their marbles.

It's pretty good stuff though -- I mean, so I hear.

As an aside, one time my brother was watching General Conference and kinda dozed off. He dreamt that he was looking on the screen and that there was a quote from the book of Lehi. He told everyone to look, but then he ended up opening his eyes and realizing his mistake. My family had much fun with it. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I was away on my mission at the time.

LOL, okay Gal 2:3 goes really well with Deu 25:11-12. Not sure if that is what you meant and have no idea what book Lehi is in....

Not Galations, but the book of Gad.

[Doctor Steuss]

The only people who can read the lost books are those who have lost their marbles.

It's pretty good stuff though -- I mean, so I hear.

As an aside, one time my brother was watching General Conference and kinda dozed off. He dreamt that he was looking on the screen and that there was a quote from the book of Lehi. He told everyone to look, but then he ended up opening his eyes and realizing his mistake. My family had much fun with it. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I was away on my mission at the time.

Not Galations, but the book of Gad.

LOL. I read portions of the Book of Zelph a while back, and got a kick out of it. I once stumbled upon a website that had the sealed portion (actually... I think The Dude posted a link to it). I believe it was "translated" by Christopher Nemelka (sp?). I only made it a couple of chapters in before I ran into temple content, and stopped there (I haven't been to the temple yet, so I didn't want any "spoilers").