Has your opinion of the LDS church

[Who Knows]

Just curious how this site has affected everyone.

FYI, I voted for 'I had doubts, and still have those same doubts'

I'm really curious is anyone is ever swayed by the arguments here. We all present certain arguments, then someone else presents a counter argument. Do those really mean anything? Does anyone really ever change their opinion because of them?

[Daniel Peterson]

On the whole, I wouldn't expect anybody's testimony of the Gospel to be strengthened on a message board such as this. At best, it's likely to remain roughly the same as it was. And, given the nature of the place, it's very possible that it will be weakened (in my opinion, of course, mostly by badly flawed arguments and demagoguery).

Why?

Because, while this is a venue for attacks on the truth claims of Mormonism and for brief and informal defenses of those truth claims, it is not a place where sophisticated, formal defenses are likely to appear, and serious scholarly arguments for the truth claims of Mormonism are very rarely if ever set forth on message boards.

In other words, it's rather like a football game in which only the offense of one team and the defense of the other actually play. The defense will occasionally catch an interception, and if it's really effective, it will keep the other team from scoring. But, on the whole, the nature of the contest will give something of an advantage to the offense. (Fortunately, though, the offense in this instance doesn't have a particularly good case.)

Incidentally, a new and, we hope, more useful version of the FARMS website -- which is a good place to look for serious scholarly arguments (and not merely defensive ones) regarding the truth claims of Mormonism -- was unveiled today, and is definitely worth some examination.

http://farms.byu.edu/index.php

[Who Knows]

On the whole, I wouldn't expect anybody's testimony of the Gospel to be strengthened on a message board such as this. At best, it's likely to remain roughly the same as it was. And, given the nature of the place, it's very possible that it will be weakened (in my opinion, of course, mostly by badly flawed arguments and demagoguery).

Why?

Because, while this is a venue for attacks on the truth claims of Mormonism and for brief and informal defenses of those truth claims, it is not a place where sophisticated, formal defenses are likely to appear, and serious scholarly arguments for the truth claims of Mormonism are very rarely if ever set forth on message boards.

In other words, it's rather like a football game in which only the offense of one team and the defense of the other actually play. The defense will occasionally catch an interception, and if it's really effective, it will keep the other team from scoring. But, on the whole, the nature of the contest will give something of an advantage to the offense. (Fortunately, though, the offense in this instance doesn't have a particularly good case.)

Incidentally, a new and, we hope, more useful version of the FARMS website -- which is a good place to look for serious scholarly arguments (and not merely defensive ones) regarding the truth claims of Mormonism -- was unveiled today, and is definitely worth some examination.

http://farms.byu.edu/index.php

Good thoughts, although I don't agree about your offense/defense opinion. I think the offense and defense change with each new thread, or post even.

[Boy Named Sue]

Incidentally, a new and, we hope, more useful version of the FARMS website -- which is a good place to look for serious scholarly arguments (and not merely defensive ones) regarding the truth claims of Mormonism -- was unveiled today, and is definitely worth some examination.

http://farms.byu.edu/index.php

thanks for your work daniel. i admit in my intro that farms was part of my search for answers. i can admit that it was not uplifting and in fact may have been detrimental to my "testimony." that said, i appreciate that you are dedicated to exploring arguments and presenting them for people like me and my family to consider.

good luck with your new website.

[e=mc2]

It's lookin good Daniel, as we all expected.......

Best,

Kerry

[Boy Named Sue]

Good thoughts, although I don't agree about your offense/defense opinion. I think the offense and defense change with each new thread, or post even.

i hate sports metaphors.

that said, its more like a teams best closer facing a designated hitter. the apologists are specialists and the counter arguments are being offered by folks that are often well informed in their own right. its sometimes hard to consider a closer with a 99 mph left hand fastball as one fielding a defensive position, alright, enough already.

[Refuge]

No change. My feelings towards the church (a church, that's fine, do your business) and the members (some nice, some extremely asenine in using their faith to justify the mistreatment of others) haven't really changed. Hinckley's cool...too bad more of his followers weren't more like him.

[flameburns623]

I take Mormonism more seriously as an intellectually-defensible religious position. I am reading the BoM through. I neither have a testimony nor feel I am acquiring one. (imho every poll should include a 'none of the above-please post response below' option--most people seem very unskilled at creating a broad enough selection of options to meet all needs).

[charity]

Before I explain why I answered that my testimony was strengthened I want to say this: I have spent many sleepless hours at night thinking about those few who have expressed their distress at sincerely trying to receive a testimony and who have not done so. I am at a loss to understand this. And I am so very sorry about this.

Now, I answered strengthened for this reason. In my daily life I never see anti-Mormons. (I know some people who are inactive. Some in my own family. But there is no bitterness, no name calling, no insulting each other, no anti-ness.) My experience, before coming to the message board, was intellectual knowledge of the persecutions of the past. And my grandson's excited report of what he ran into a April conference last year.

I thought, naively, that people who were really anti-Mormon just didn't understand, and when they did, they wouldn't be anti-Mormon any more. But guess what. The behavior of some of the anti-Mormons who post here showed me how the spirit of the adversary works. Some people posting here have shown an absolute refusal to be open to ideas presented to them. But what has surprised me most is the hatred. There is opposition in all things. What a confirmation of the wisdom of the prophets.

[pezp]

i voted "never had a testimony and still dont" and my coming here introduced me to really good new questions about the church and religion in general....other points of view that i agree and others that i dont..but the general result id say it confirmed me that god (if he exists) wouldnt have ONE church and everybody rejecting it will be damned...and if he doesnt exist well i`ve met really cool and interesting people with that idea who in general (not all) happen to be most of the time more friendly and polite than the trully believers, way more tolerant and open to new things....so the myth about "you dont believe in god then you are a bad person" is completly lost here thankfully....

another thing that i find interesting is that religion, and in particular mormonism, aint for everyone, and im not saying this because there are people who cant live up to mormon standards..i say it just because the trully believers are happy with the explanations they receive from fair and farms while other people arent...in my case i find most of them rather "easy way out" if you know what i mean...

[Boy Named Sue]

I thought, naively, that people who were really anti-Mormon just didn't understand, and when they did, they wouldn't be anti-Mormon any more. But guess what. The behavior of some of the anti-Mormons who post here showed me how the spirit of the adversary works. Some people posting here have shown an absolute refusal to be open to ideas presented to them. But what has surprised me most is the hatred. There is opposition in all things. What a confirmation of the wisdom of the prophets.

"Don't take your guns to town, son

Leave your guns at home, Bill

Don't take your guns to town."

He sang a song as on he rode,

His guns hung at his hips

He rode into a cattle town,

A smile upon his lips

He stopped and walked into a bar and laid his money down

But his mother's words echoed again;

=================

hey charity, i have been reading your stuff for a while. i suggest the verse above to you, you have definitely brought a gun to a knife fight by generalizing about anti-mormons.

from what i can tell there are many on here that have family or friends still in the church but have posted contrary opinions to you, including a few of my mission companions and people that i served with on ward councils. these are good people. i find your blanket judgment of them to be a bit harsh. though, admittedly, other than those fun folks i have known for many years, i cant vouch for all the rest. maybe they are under the spell of the devil, though i doubt it.

have you ever considered this: maybe others have had a spiritual witness that they need to follow a plan that is slightly different than yours?

maybe they have experiences that allow them to see things much more clearly than you? i speak specifically to their personal or family concerns.

and maybe you can help me out, by pointing me to another thread or by some other means - what is an anti-mormon? is it someone who thinks the hugging lady is inspirational? is it someone that has moral aversion to polygamy? what is anti? if someone is in favor of a lay ministry but opposes a dictated dress standard necessarily anti?

maybe we can agree on a new term. maybe.

[Boy Named Sue]

.but the general result id say it confirmed me that god (if he exists) wouldnt have ONE church and everybody rejecting it will be damned...and if he doesnt exist well i`ve met really cool and interesting people with that idea who in general (not all) happen to be most of the time more friendly and polite than the trully believers, way more tolerant and open to new things....so the myth about "you dont believe in god then you are a bad person" is completly lost here thankfully....

hey pezp dispenser

i like your take here. i find it very curious that a board that is so tightly monitored and void of foul language, where insults are flagged or deleted or whatever, gives you a basis for your generalizations.

out of curiosity, do you form those judgments based on the tone of the poster or the positions they take? just wonderin.

[Arlon James]

I voted for number seven. I'm leaning towards dropping all forms of organized Christianity for a while and just learning what it feels like to be a Christian without it being filtered through an organization of any kind. I keep getting this bi-polar version of Christ swinging between 'vengful, jealous angry destroying God' to 'all loving, comforter, savior', it's really confusing. Plus, despite how I feel about the church, that it contains much truth, I don't know if I can live as a full blown LDS, without playing some role. I've never been good at molds.

anyway................... who knows.

AJ

[aznative]

What a confirmation of the wisdom of the prophets.

I really don't understand what this has to do with the post. If you mean that

There is opposition in all things.

, and that you needed prphetic guidance to understand this, are you not using enough of your own reasoning and rational thought to have figured this out? And, no there is no sarcasm of insult intended. Rather, why would you need a prophet to tell you that there is good and evil in this world? Isn't that readily descernible enough?

[Serious]

A person who is opposed to something, such as a group, policy, proposal, or practice.

Here is what anti is. What is being opposed?

To be in contention or conflict with: oppose the enemy force.

To be resistant to: opposes new ideas.

To place opposite in contrast or counterbalance.

To place so as to be opposite something else.

You sound anti to me, blanketly so.

btw, this place has not changed my testimony. Words from men do not change what God has given.

[aznative]

Nice reply BNS........

[Cowpie]

I didn't vote because none of the options apply. When I first started reading mormon-related message boards some years ago, my testimony was gone. My reading has done nothing except confirm that I made the right decision by leaving the church. My reading educated me as to issues and controversies (which you might call anti-Mormon) which had nothing to do with my loss of testimony in the first place. And my reading has changed my view of the church as a fairly benign organization for quite nice people to something less favorable, indeed. Actually, I still believe that most Mormons are quite nice people, but not the ones who post on these message boards -- with few exceptions. Some of you are consistently mean, judgmental and self-righteous. Others have nice qualities but you find a conflict between being congenial and being religious, and the judgment and self-righteousness come to the forefront. The behavior of some of the Mormons who post here showed me how the ego works. Some Mormons posting here have shown an absolute refusal to be open to ideas presented to them. But what has surprised me the most is the hatred. They create opposition where none should be. What a confirmation that there's no such thing as prophets.

[Boy Named Sue]

You sound anti to me, blanketly so.

btw, this place has not changed my testimony. Words from men do not change what God has given.

i am pro family history research. i am pro fidelity. i am pro health. i am pro community. i am pro meditation. i am pro reading and studying. i am pro charity (not THE charity). i am pro history. i am pro - the eleventh article of faith.

looks like the spirit led you astray serious.

hey serious, look with both eyes and listen with your heart brother. there is beauty all about you if you care to see it.

In the park I saw a daddy

With a laughin' little girl who he was swingin'

And I stopped beside a Sunday school

And listened to the songs they were singin'

Then I headed down the street

And somewhere far away a lonely bell was ringin'

And it echoed thru the canyon

Like the disappearing dreams of yesterday.

[Daniel Peterson]

Some of you are consistently mean, judgmental and self-righteous.  Others have nice qualities but you find a conflict between being congenial and being religious, and the judgment and self-righteousness come to the forefront. The behavior of some of the Mormons who post here showed me how the ego works. Some Mormons posting here have shown an absolute refusal to be open to ideas presented to them. But what has surprised me the most is the hatred.

It's obvious that you're strongly opposed to judgmentalism.

What a confirmation that there's no such thing as prophets.

If I ever write a book or an article on practical logical fallacies, the passage above (a thing of true beauty) will serve as a nice illustration for the concept of the non sequitur.

[noel00]

Interesting results!. Nearly 50% expressed doubts and had their doubts increased. I have found the board useful in seeing what arguments are put up by TBM like Gardiner, DCP etc and enjoy the comments by the likes of Addictio and Vogal. As to whether FARMS and FAIR have made credible responses to any criticisms, I don't think they have but I may be wrong. What I find interesting is the way people here talk to each other, especially when someone had written something they did not like. It was interesting how Sevenof Nine was treated when she checked out the sources Sorenson was using in his argument about metallugry in the Mesoamericas.

[Serious]

You sound anti to me, blanketly so.

btw, this place has not changed my testimony. Words from men do not change what God has given.

i am pro family history research. i am pro fidelity. i am pro health. i am pro community. i am pro meditation. i am pro reading and studying. i am pro charity (not THE charity). i am pro history. i am pro - the eleventh article of faith.

looks like the spirit led you astray serious.

hey serious, look with both eyes and listen with your heart brother. there is beauty all about you if you care to see it.

In the park I saw a daddy

With a laughin' little girl who he was swingin'

And I stopped beside a Sunday school

And listened to the songs they were singin'

Then I headed down the street

And somewhere far away a lonely bell was ringin'

And it echoed thru the canyon

Like the disappearing dreams of yesterday.

But you are anti-mormon and my eyes are wide open and my heart is still faithful.

[Boy Named Sue]

It's obvious that you're strongly opposed to judgmentalism.

What a confirmation that there's no such thing as prophets.

If I ever write a book or an article on practical logical fallacies, the passage above (a thing of true beauty) will serve as a nice illustration for the concept of the non sequitur.

hey mr. peterson, logical fallacies? wow. would you subject it to peer reviews?

judgments are absolutely necessary in this life. what would we be without judgments? however, i think i side with cowpie in those cases where the judgments imply that one person has the spirit and is a good prophet follower and those that fail to "walk the line" are inspired by satan and fulfilling prophecy by being devilish and "anti"

[Boy Named Sue]

But you are anti-mormon and my eyes are wide open and my heart is still faithful.

ok, if my dad were a raging alcoholic and i were to suggest he accompany his rehab with activity in his mormon ward, would that make me anti-mormon?

serious, put the brakes on. you dont know me. you are not being a charitable example.

[Daniel Peterson]

hey mr. peterson,  logical fallacies?  wow.  would you subject it to peer reviews?

Sure. Why not? I have nothing against peer review. I do it, and suffer it, on a regular basis.

But the argument "Certain people who say they believe in prophets strike me as unpleasant, therefore there are no prophets" is about as neat a non sequitur as any logic teacher could possibly desire.

[Boy Named Sue]

hey mr. peterson,  logical fallacies?  wow.  would you subject it to peer reviews?

Sure. Why not? I have nothing against peer review. I do it, and suffer it, on a regular basis.

But the argument "Certain people who say they believe in prophets strike me as unpleasant, therefore there are no prophets" is about as neat a non sequitur as any logic teacher could possibly desire.

this is funny, i clicked the wrong link and almost reported you. whew, that would have been a crack up.

be sure and include your source when you write your book.