Brigham Young and extreme racism

[Dunamis]

I was never trying to lecture you on anything. My point has always been that Mormonism is a religion with racist origins and doctrines that have been changed for better PR. This is my opinion. You are entitled to disagree.

And this is your problem on this board, you are now finished with your point and only invite "disagreement". We do not want pointless quarreling over "opinions". We do not want a series of new threads saying the same thing. Unless you can add data and documentation to support your opinion you have nothing new to say here.

Clean it up fast, Benji. Consider this a warning.

[Tanyan]

No, in all the time I spent in the Lutheran church (18 years of solid devotion) I never once read ANYWHERE that Martin Luther OR ANY Lutheran claimed him to be a prophet.

[Zakuska]

Boniface,

I never said that Luther's beliefs about the Jews were OK. I just said that he never claimed to be a prophet. If you remember, someone told Tayran that Luther never claimed to be a prophet, Tayran responded rather smugly that he had heard otherwise. In all honesty, I really just wanted to whipe the grin off Tayran's face with that one.

Isn't this the silly-est argument you have ever heard?

If he was not a prophet... then what prey-tell was he doing teaching the Bible!

[Pokatator]

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses 10:110)

Having never heard or read this type of quote before a couple of days ago, I am apalled and disjusted that anyone could say such thing and say it is from God in any way or form. I don't care about what context or other sermons before and after this statement, I am shocked.

Does this mean death to just the White man, and not the African man? What about the woman? Does conception have to occur to be an offense? What would happen to the "innocent" offspring?

BY went by, by on this one.

If I put this thread and the thread on Blood Atonement together, I think I would have to conclude that if an offending White or African person was brought to BY with the charges of this offense, he would have cut their throats to shed their blood for the atonement of their sins.

[Magyar]

This specific statement was addressed a long time ago on this board, presenting the strong possibility that BY was actually addressing here the disgusting practice of white men taking sexual advantage of black female slaves.

You could find that thread if you looked a little, rather than getting all foamy at the mouth about a man who, being rather dead, is not here to explain himself.

[USU78]

Not everyone is racist, only the ignorant.

Like Harry Belafonte?

[thesometimesaint]

Pokatator:

Oh the inhumanity

From LDSFAQ:

How could the God of the Bible ever be so unfair?

The God of the Bible, who is our God and our Heavenly Father, operates out of infinite love for mankind. His ways truly are just and fair, for salvation is available to all who will accept it, regardless of race or gender. In fact, Latter-day Saints know that God is much fairer than most of our other Christian friends know, for He has even provided a way for those who never had a chance to hear of Jesus Christ to learn of the Gospel and be able to accept a vicarious baptism done for those who have already died.

Though perfectly fair, His ways are often misunderstood by humans who see only a tiny part of the big picture. To us, some of His ways seem unfair. But this is nothing unique to Mormonism, but has been a part of Biblical history for thousands of years. For example, the priesthood was initially restricted to those who were members of the tribe of Levi. There were 11 other tribes among the Israelites - was it unfair that only one tribe could have the priesthood? And what about the 99.99% of the world then that weren't Hebrew?

Deuteronomy 23 gives further information about restrictions on membership in the Lord's congregation. *******'s were excluded, as well as their descendants, even to their tenth generation (Deut. 23:2). And those who had the misfortune of having ancestors from the nearby Ammonites or Moabites up to 10 generations ago were excluded (Deut. 23:3-4). What's fair about that? But then, in the Book of Ruth, we read that the Lord made an exception for Ruth, a Moabite, who was accepted into the congregation and got to be one of the ancestors of Jesus Christ. This was wonderful for Ruth, but was it fair to the other Moabites who were excluded for many generations?

Human sensibilities about fairness may be offended by some of the Lord's dealings, but the scriptures affirm - as does the personal experience of millions - that we can trust Him as the true exemplar of love and kindness. The details of who gets what responsibility or privilege right now are irrelevant compared to the big issue: who gets eternal life? And only the fullness of the Gospel, as revealed to modern LDS prophets, offers insight into just how remarkably fair and just the Lord is in this matter.

[Magyar]

It should also be noted that the Law of Moses barred temple service to anyone with a deformity.

[Tarski]

It should also be noted that the Law of Moses barred temple service to anyone with a deformity.

The superstitious have always been afraid of the bad luck surrounding those with physical deformity. The bible is just a record of an ancient peoples superstitous attempts to deal with uncertainlty and the unknown. This little tidbit fits that view perfectly.

[Magyar]

It should also be noted that the Law of Moses barred temple service to anyone with a deformity.

The superstitious have always been afraid of the bad luck surrounding those with physical deformity. The bible is just a record of an ancient peoples superstitous attempts to deal with uncertainlty and the unknown. This little tidbit fits that view perfectly.

Or maybe, just maybe, there's another reason, which I don't understand right now, anymore than I understand any of the other apparently unfair actions of the Lord in his modern or his ancient church.

His being "unfair" doesn't negate his existence. Someday I will understand, just as when I became a man, I better understood some of the "unfair" decisions of my parents.

But to each his own interpretation.

[Zakuska]

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses 10:110)

Having never heard or read this type of quote before a couple of days ago, I am apalled and disjusted that anyone could say such thing and say it is from God in any way or form. I don't care about what context or other sermons before and after this statement, I am shocked.

http://journals.mormonfundamentalism.org/V...JDvol10-24.html

Once Again Context is everything!

In 1857 it is estimated that eleven thousand troops were ordered here; some seven thousand started for this place, with several thousand hangers on. They came into this Territory when a company of emigrants were traveling on the south route to California. Nearly all of the Company were destroyed by the Indians. That unfortunate affair has been laid to the charge of the whites. A certain judge that was then in this Territory wanted the whole army to accompany him to Iron county to try the whites for the murder of that company of emigrants. I told Governor Cumming that if he would take an unprejudiced judge into the district where that horrid affair occurred, I would pledge myself that every man in the regions round about should be forthcoming when called for, to be condemned or acquitted as an impartial, unprejudiced judge and jury should decide; and I pledged him that the court should be protected from any violence or hindrance in the prosecution of the laws; and if any were guilty of the blood of those who suffered in the Mountain Meadow massacre, let them suffer the penalty of the law; but to this day they have not touched the matter, for fear the Mormons would be acquitted from the charge of having any hand in it, and our enemies would thus be deprived of a favorite topic to talk about, when urging hostility against us. "The Mountain Meadow massacre! Only think of the Mountain Meadow massacre!!" is their cry from one end of the land to the other.

"Come, let us make war on the Mormons, for they burnt government property." And what was the government doing there with their property? They were coming to destroy the Mormons, in violation of every right principle of law and justice. A little of their property was destroyed, and they were left to gnaw, not a file, but dead cattle's bones. I was informed that one man brought five blood hounds to hunt the Mormons in the mountains, and that the poor devil had to kill them and eat them before spring to save himself from starving to death, and that he was fool enough to acknowledge it afterwards in this city. This is the kind of outside pressure we have to meet with. Who wanted the army of 1857 here? Who sent for them? Liars, thieves, murderers, gamblers, whoremasters, and speculators in the rights and blood of the Mormon people cried to government, and government opened its ears, long and broad, saying, "I hear you, my children, lie on, my faithful sons Brocchus, Drummond and Co.," and so they did lie on until the parent sent an army to use up the Mormons. Now I say, for the consolation of all my brethren and sisters, they cannot do it; and that is worse to them than all the rest; they cannot do it.

The rank, rabid abolitionists, whom I call black-hearted Republicans, have set the whole national fabric on fire. Do you know this, Democrats? They have kindled the fire that is raging now from the north to the south, and from the south to the north. I am no abolitionist. Neither am I a proslavery man; I hate some of their principles and especially some of their conduct, as I do the gates of hell. The Southerners make the negroes, and the Northerners worship them; this is all the difference between slaveholders and abolitionists. I would like the President of the United States and all the world to hear this.

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, and they are like a hungry man that dreameth that he eateth, and he awaketh and behold he is empty.

The following saying of the prophet is fulfilled: "Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion. But they know not the thoughts of the Lord, neither understand they his counsel; for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor. Arise and thrash O daughter of Zion, &c." God rules in the armies of Heaven and does his pleasure upon the earth, and no man can help it. Who can stay the hand of Jehovah, or turn aside the providences of the Almighty? I say to all men and all women, submit to God, to his ordinances and to His rule; serve Him, and cease your quarrelling, and stay the shedding of each other's blood.

If the Government of the United States, in Congress assembled, had the right to pass an anti-polygamy bill, they had also the right to pass a law that slaves should not be abused as they have been; they had also a right to make a law that negroes should be used like human beings, and not worse than dumb brutes. For their abuse of that race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent.

I am neither an abolitionist nor a pro-slavery man. If I could have been influenced by private injury to choose one side in preference to the other, I should certainly be against the pro-slavery side of the question, for it was pro-slavery men that pointed the bayonet at me and my brethren in Missouri, and said, "Damn you we will kill you." I have not much love for them, only in the Gospel. I would cause them to repent, if I could, and make them good men and a good community. I have no fellowship for their avarice, blindness, and ungodly actions. To be great, is to be good before the Heavens and before all good men. I will not fellowship the wicked in their sins, so help me God.

Joseph Smith, in forty-seven prosecutions was never proven guilty of one violation of the laws of his, country. They accused him of treason, because he would not fellowship their wickedness. Suppose the land should be cleansed from its filthiness and the law of God should predominate, if a man or woman should be found who had corrupted themselves and thereby become diseased, that man or woman would be placed by themselves, as the lepers were anciently, never more to commune with the human family. Purify your flesh and blood, your spirits, your habitations and your country, and then you will be pure before God. This change has got to be before this earth will be taken back into a celestial atmosphere.

Find fault with me because I have wives! They would corrupt every wife I have, if they had the power; and then they cry to the government, "You had better do something with the Mormons; they are deceitful and disloyal!!" I am disloyal to their sins and filthiness. Cleanse your hearts and the whole person, and make yourselves as pure as the angels, and then I will fellowship you.

I say to every man and woman in this community, suffer not your affections to wander after that which is unholy; do not lust after gold, nor the things of this world. Sanctify yourselves before your God and before one another, until you are pure outside and in and all around you, and see that you faithfully perform every duty.

Now, as we are accused of secession, my counsel to this congregation is to secede, what from? From the Constitution of the United States? No. From the institutions of our country? No. Well then, what from? From sin and the practice thereof. That is my counsel to this congregation and to the whole world.

May God bless everybody that wishes well to his kingdom on the earth. Amen.

http://journals.mormonfundamentalism.org/V...JDvol10-24.html

He is speaking to the White Slave holders "abusing" their Female slaves.

Brigham Young isnt the Blood thirsty Broot you make him out to be.

[Mor-Atheist]

I love it when the conversation gets to the point of "if our religion is false then so is yours"

So many say "well if you don't think Joseph was a prophet then Paul cant be either"

To which I say, exactly...

[thesometimesaint]

Mor-Atheist:

It is the double standard that is the problem. And the Atheists are not immune.

[Mor-Atheist]

Zakuska,

You are right, context is everything. From this context he covers two topics on slaves. The first is mixing seed with them, the second is in regards to slavery. Can you please show how the later has anything to do with mixing seed?

This context does not appear to do anything for your argument.

[Zakuska]

Actually you missed 1.

"and stay the shedding of each other's blood."

Why is he condeming the very act of spilling one anothers Blood?

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, and they are like a hungry man that dreameth that he eateth, and he awaketh and behold he is empty.

The following saying of the prophet is fulfilled: "Now also many nations are gathered against thee, that say, let her be defiled, and let our eye look upon Zion. But they know not the thoughts of the Lord, neither understand they his counsel; for he shall gather them as the sheaves into the floor. Arise and thrash O daughter of Zion, &c." God rules in the armies of Heaven and does his pleasure upon the earth, and no man can help it. Who can stay the hand of Jehovah, or turn aside the providences of the Almighty? I say to all men and all women, submit to God, to his ordinances and to His rule; serve Him, and cease your quarrelling, and stay the shedding of each other's blood.

If the Government of the United States, in Congress assembled, had the right to pass an anti-polygamy bill, they had also the right to pass a law that slaves should not be abused as they have been; they had also a right to make a law that negroes should be used like human beings, and not worse than dumb brutes. For their abuse of that race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent.

The biblical verse links the two. Not that I would expect you to understand scripture.

[Mor-Atheist]

It is the double standard that is the problem. And the Atheists are not immune.

Agreed, I don't think anyone is immune from what I have seen on this board. It takes a lot of time and effort to be consistent, sometimes we all get lazy...

[thesometimesaint]

Mor-Atheist:

The people on this board seem to work hard to avoid it. But I know I get lazy.

[Observer]

This specific statement was addressed a long time ago on this board, presenting the strong possibility that BY was actually addressing here the disgusting practice of white men taking sexual advantage of black female slaves.

You could find that thread if you looked a little, rather than getting all foamy at the mouth about a man who, being rather dead, is not here to explain himself.

Interesting. Very interesting.

So on one hand, prophets aren't "infallible" and so we shouldn't be too shocked when they commit obvious "goose eggs" (Juliann's term). We should realize prophets aren't infallible, forgive their offenses and go on with business as normal.

I think this one quote by Brigham Young would be an easy example that prophet truly are fallible. And yet, with your explaining and rationalizing, are you attempting to remove the possibility that Brigham was just being "fallible"?

I always hear Mormons explaining away actions of Prophets with the "Prophets aren't infallible" line. And yet, when an obvious example comes up, it isn't that the Prophet might be showing his fallibility. Oh no, there's a good, complicated explanation here.

So is this the LDS motto? LDS Prophets are of course fallible... Just don't ask for any examples, because there aren't any that we're aware of.

btw, the idea that Brigham Young had the best intentions regarding the "African Race" by protecting them from rape is about the silliest, most Clintonesque idea I have ever heard. That's not just a few pages of context, eh? More like a few libraries of "context" to pull that malarkey out of Brigham's plainly worded explanation of a "Law of God".

I was always under the impression that Brigham spoke plainly and hade a no-nonsense, matter of fact style. Apparently, he was speaking in cryptic super code during this sermon. sheesh.

[Zakuska]

Observer,

Apparently more context is needed.

Duet 7

1 WHEN the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.

4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.

6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

11 Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

12

[Observer]

Appears to be a condemnation of race mixing all around.

However, Brigham was specifically explaining what the penalty is for such mixing under the "Law of God". Shall I type up the first few chapters of Genesis in this thread. It would add about as much to the discussion.

[thesometimesaint]

observer:

It is one thing to say that ALL have sinned. And qite another of laying a particular sin at someones feet, without that person being present to refute the accusation. BY is LONG dead.

[Zakuska]

Why Type when you can cut-and-paste?

Whats funny is the very thing that God condemned... "Race Mixing" is the very thing that brought about the promises of Abraham.

Nothing like making something off-limits to get ones objectives accomplished. God knows Human Natural all too well.

Reminds me of the Garden. "You may eat of every tree but the tree of KofGaE"

[Observer]

observer:

It is one thing to say that ALL have sinned. And qite another of laying a particular sin at someones feet, without that person being present to refute the accusation.  BY is LONG dead.

Ok. So I guess the motto should be: Prophets aren't infallible, which assumes there are examples of fallibility. Just don't ask us for specific examples of fallibility, because the fallible prophet isn't alive to explain the ways the specific example might actually have been infallible. Does that sound better?

Personally, my opinion is that Brigham Young would be the one chuckling, were he to hear of some of the explanations attempted for his plainly worded sermons.

Or maybe he would agree?

"Ahh yes, good fellow. That's exactly what I meant to say. You white men had better not violate the female negroes...under the Law of God. If you do, it shall be death on the spot...under the law of God, and this will always be so."

- Brigham Young's intended explanation of God's Law.*

*version requires no context for the saints to understand.

[Zakuska]

Brigham young makes the very distinction in the discourse... that he is not an abolitionist nor is he pro-slavery (Because of their abuses of the Negroe women. and Slaves in General)

The rank, rabid abolitionists, whom I call black-hearted Republicans, have set the whole national fabric on fire. Do you know this, Democrats? They have kindled the fire that is raging now from the north to the south, and from the south to the north. I am no abolitionist. Neither am I a proslavery man; I hate some of their principles and especially some of their conduct, as I do the gates of hell. The Southerners make the negroes, and the Northerners worship them; this is all the difference between slaveholders and abolitionists. I would like the President of the United States and all the world to hear this.

Indeed!?

[Observer]

Why Type when you can cut-and-paste?

Whats funny is the very thing that God condemned... "Race Mixing" is the very thing that brought about the promises of Abraham.

Nothing like making something off-limits to get ones objectives accomplished. God knows Human Natural all too well.

Reminds me of the Garden. "You may eat of every tree but the tree of KofGaE"

Agreed. It's utter nonsense to imagine God would work in such a way or that he would view "race mixing" in such a way. It just doesn't look good.

Perhaps there's another explanation. It couldn't actually be that Brigham meant the words he was speaking, could it?

Next question, if it couldn't possibly be "God's Law", as you insinuate, why is Brigham proclaiming it to be the "Law of God"? Is he attributing a "Law" to God when there really is no such law? Is he attributing his own personal "fallibility" and racial remarks directly to God?