phaedrus ut

I seem to recall reading about a "pencil test" in the hair of Brazilian men.  If you could stick a pencil in their curly hair and it stayed it was because of their "negro blood". If it fell out you could give them the missionary lessons.  I couldn't find anything with a quick search so I may be thinking of a apocryphal story that I was told rather than read. 

Phaedrus   

I know quite a few people over the years who have put children up for adoption or been adoptive parents themselves.  In my experience the situation that has brought the most joy for everyone involved was where the adoptive parents and the child could maintain contact with the biological parent(s). I've seen this communication happen though an intermediary with cards and pictures exchanged a couple times a year or where the families stay connected with direct contact and even semi regular visits.  

These are complex situations with many types of emotions on all sides.  I admire both sides for making loving and selfless decisions to hopefully raise a child in a good home.  The 2018 movie Instant Family was a pretty good show about the adoption and foster system that gave this old softy a few tears. 

Phaerdrus 

If you look at the history of Utah politics you'll see that Mormons were predominately Democrats up until the late 60's early 70's.  The two issues that seemed to push Mormons to the Republican party were first civil rights and then the ERA along with the rise of very conservative leaders like Ezra Taft Benson.  

There is a reasonable argument that the highest national political office ever held by a active Mormon was Harry Reid as the Senate Majority Leader. 

Phaedrus 

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

Discussed here:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/71498-new-elijah-able-info/?tab=comments#comment-1209882969

 

Dag nabbit.  I clicked back a couple pages and even did a search and didn't find a duplicate.  

 "A new two-page, handwritten note offers evidence of who ordained Able to the priesthood, the exact date of that ordination, as well as a variety of other tantalizing details. It is, in fact, a rush of new information about Able, his ancestry, a bit about his wife, Mary Ann, and mostly about his ritual relationship to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It was found in the Joseph F. Smith papers and has been verified to have been written by Smith."  Keepapitchinin, The Mormon History Blog offers more details on the discovery. 

http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2019/01/18/guest-post-newly-discovered-document-provides-dramatic-details-about-elijah-able-and-the-priesthood/

The basics are that Elijah Abel was ordained and Elder by Ambrose Palmer, on 25 January 1836, he received a ministerial certificate and license from Joseph Smith himself, he received his washings & anointings in the Kirtland Temple, and was later ordained a Seventy.  The new documents also show Joseph F. Smith was dishonest in 1908 when he said that Joseph Smith declared Abel's ordination "null and void" when he was one of the few people who knew the exact opposite was true. 

Phaedrus 

20 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Phaedrus, my mother in law doesn't know the extent of my faith crisis since I found out about Joseph's particular way of living polygamy. She's reading "The Saints" book and she's pretty far into it and I've yet to read it. If you've read it, do they give much detail about Joseph living polygamy, or do they put it more as sealings? Because if it's like that, it's no wonder that Alan and Investigator might stick to their guns that these were sealings only. And a reason to withhold my faith crisis confession.

From what I understand the new Saints book does cover it more than has been done in the past.  The Wheat and Tares blog has some coverage of the book and polygamy if you are interested.  

Phaedrus  

I remember seeing so many people arguing that Joseph Smith fought polygamy on these forums over the years.  If that's what you wish to believe there is plenty of evidence you can use to defend your case.  I had a conversation with one of my in laws., a former Bishop, this past summer and he had no idea that Joseph had multiple wives.  I think the evidence shows that Joseph tried to keep his polygamy hidden and I think the Utah church continued that tradition for him.  

I've always considered the Temple Lot affidavits from his former wives to be the most convincing evidence not only of his polygamy.  Malissa Lott gave a sworn statement in the Temple Lot case and was detailed enough to remember the room number in the Nauvoo Mansion where she and Joseph slept together as husband and wife.  She later gave a the same testimony to Joseph Smith, III, gave a notarized statement to Joseph F. Smith and was interviewed late in life by church historian Andrew Jensen.  All confirming she was his wife "in very deed" and they slept together as both husband and wife at the Nauvoo Mansion and at her fathers house.  

Phaedrus 

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't disagree, BUT you are leaving out the fact that dowsers are biological beings, not machines. Who knows what some humans are capable of.

If a butterfly can migrate thousands of miles to the same place, I am not about to say that a human thru millions of years of evolution cannot find water which is essential to survival, with primitive tools. 

But I am not about to hire a dowser, either.

 

 

That is how it works.  It's called the ideomotor effect.  A fun way to test this effect is to suspend a key or something similar at the end of a length of string.  Hold the string in your hand and try to move the key with your mind while keeping your hand & arm perfectly still.  You'll find you can magically move the key and you'll swear your hand never moved.  

Water doesn't give off any magic energy and as CA Steve pointed out that Ouija boards stop working when the participants can't see the letters on the board. When dowsers are tested by James Randi in his challenged I think they are genuinely surprised when they fail the test.  

Phaedrus 

On 1/25/2019 at 11:56 PM, mfbukowski said:

I was raised about 90 miles from Palmyra and I remember dowsing to find wells in the 1950's.  And it worked.  I knew a dowser who made his living that way!

Folk magic is VERY deep in NY State- you have to live there to believe it!!  I heard it all the time from the "old timers" all the time- at least I did as a kid in the 1950's

Google "dowsing ny" and see what you get!!  Here is a dowser's website!!   https://getzgoodwater.com/

I had a fever as a kid and the wife of the elderly farmer who lived next door came over to talk to my mom as if on a mercy mission to tell my stupid mom about how to cut a fever.  My mom had several doctors in her family but what did they know?

She whispered, as if telling a secret, "Put a silver knife under his bed and it will cut the fever"

That was in 1960.

Fortunately for us dowsing has been well known for centuries and scientifically tested many many times.  In fact The James Randi Foundation has tested many dowsers attempting to win his million dollar challenge.  Belief in such devices is still so common and a British defense contractor was selling them for $60,000 to governments as bomb detectors.  Luckily the company's devices were discredited and owners sent to jail.  Sonar can be used to magically see deep into the earth and your phone can invisibly communicate with local cell phone towers and communicate back to you. Sticks, rocks, and strings are just inanimate objects without any any ability to discover items and communicate about the world around them.  This is the reason why we don't have finely calibrated dowsing rods on the science rovers on Mars.  Some people believe in the "gift of the rod/Aaron" but it's really just pseudoscience.  

Phaedrus 

The interesting question to me is whether or not someone can use a rock to find hidden treasure.  If that isn't possible is the person selling their treasure seeking services merely self deluded or perpetuating a fraud? 

Phaedrus

I childhood friend of mine works for the church as basically a business analyst.  He mentioned that in the past few years the church in the United States is starting to see the declines in membership and activity that has been happening internationally for the past decade.  Committees are being formed to address the biggest topics causing disaffection.  This includes a general rebranding to seem more mainstream Christian, lessening time burdens of meetings, home teaching, and Sunday church blocks, and trying to make the church a better home for women and minorities.   Losing the youth is still seen as the biggest problem in the church and the lower missionary age did not help as much as predicted.  Inoculating the youth before they begin to have doubts is seen as a preventative measure. 

One other statistic he mentioned had changed is the benefits of building new temples.  Historically when a new temple is being built they would see inactive members return to the church and the increased tithes would help justify the expense of the building.  Now temples are seen as more of a international missionary opportunity. 

I think we should expect to see many more talks about doubts. Also you'll notice the new term is "anti-Church" and no longer "anti-Mormon". 

Phaedrus 

22 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

A big chunk of public schooling is trying to get everyone's graphic equalizers set similarly, so they'll fit into whatever program they're in, and be ready for whatever is coming next.  That's the plan any way.  With my kids, one of them passed my abilities in math in 3rd grade, but can't spell her way out of a paper bag.  The other kid published her first 3500 word fanfiction at age 11, but sucks at math.  One experiments with weird hair color, the other doesn't even want pierced ears.  When homeschooled kids move into a more structured cookie-cutter-type situation, they can struggle a bit because of culture clash.

That sounds like an amazingly positive environment.  Did you have any specific methods to teach social skills and socialization that may have missed in a large school environment? 

19 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Well, as a dad in a very conservative family that homeschooled our kids, lemme just say that I've met a few of those people, and we don't tend to be friends with 'em.  

Homeschooling is fun.  We probably met over a hundred different hs families, and 80% are regular folks.  That remaining 20% though, could be some pretty whacked out fringey weirdoes.  I figure public schooled families have like a 90/10 split, with that last 10% not being as extreme.

I recently had someone explain to me the hardest part for them going to a public university after being home schooled was understanding it was ok to disagree.  Having been raised and taught everything by his parents the concept of dissent was foreign to him and something he had to learn.  He told me he basically wrote a checklist of all his beliefs and questioned them all to try to make sure he only retained those he had personally chosen.  

The changes he made had his parents convinced he was being brain washed when really it was the opposite.  

Phaedrus 

9 hours ago, cinepro said:

Yeah, that was all so silly.  Until my evangelical aunt gave my mom a book about occultism in Star Wars.  Then it stopped being funny.

We had very conservative families in our last ward that home schooled their kids and constantly railed against Harry Potter and science education on public schools.  

Phaedrus 

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, what a mess that was. A lot of Christianity went through a dose of xenophobia in the 70s and 80s due to changing culture. This led to a lot of sensationalist nuttery that there was a strong market for. An emotionally and psychologically disturbed kid kills himself and played D&D. D&D is obviously witchcraft. A kid was sexually abused. Clearly all homosexuals prey on children. A guy on weed killed himself doing something stupid. Clearly “Reefer Madness” was basically a documentary.

I remember all the warnings in the 80's about satanic rock music, playing cards,  Ouija boards, & Dungeons and Dragons.  Looking back it seems so silly but it was taken seriously for a while.  

Phaedrus 

This subject always make me think of Jay's Journal.  

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

whoa

And this is the problem with the lack of transparency.  On the outside it looks like you raised a lot of money for emergency relief but didn't spend it.  In the following years I recall news articles about the church working with local relief agencies and they did likely provide much more aid than the financial statements suggest.

The hording of fast offerings is a bit more curious to me. I'm willing to go hungry so someone else doesn't have to and therefore I've always been under the impression that donations would be used to help the poor and needy in the present not to build up a long term fund.  As I recall when I looked at 10 years of the UK financials only about 1/3 of the fast offerings collected were used in the average year and the restricted fund balance had grown quite large before being eventually sent to the hq in Salt Lake. 

Phaedrus 

There have been some behaviors in charitable fund raising in the past done by the church that I have some serious questions about.  I did some analysis of the public financial statement of the church in the UK and posted it here previously but I can only find one of the posts.  Let me set the stage.  On December 26, 2004 there was a tsunami in the Indian ocean that hit over a dozen countries and killed over 225,000 members.  As calls for aide and donations went out there was a request for members to make their aide donations to the Humanitarian Aide Fund of the church because "100% of every dollar donated is used to help those in need".  I verified with members I knew in the UK that they also received the same request.  I had noticed in previous years only a small portion of the money collected for fast and humanitarian donations were ever used in a particular year and the funds saw continued increases in their unused balance each year.  So after the 2005 financial statements were published we had the opportunity to analyze donations and expenditures.  Here is what I posted back then. 

Quote

 

In 2005 they had 3 employees with compensation between $140k and $160k US dollars per year, 7 between $120k and $140k, and 17 between $100k and $120k per year. (pg.13) 

The church takes in a lot of donations for fast offerings, missionaries, book of Mormon, and humanitarian aide but likes to keep $ behind. These are called "Restricted Funds" .(pg.12 &14 fin. note 8 ) For example: 

* The Fast Offering Fund had 2,005k£($4 million us dollars) as a balance entering the year. They collected 1,597k£($3.19mil usd) but only spent 500k£ and did that by sending the money back to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (welfare). That left them will a retained balance on the books of 3,102k£($6.2mil usd) 

*Missionary Fund: Starting balance 1,903k£($3.8 million usd), incoming 950k£, expenditures 852k£, ending balance 2,001k£($4 million usd) 

*Book of Mormon fund: 44k balance, 44k donated, 44k spent, 44k£ ending balance 

* Humanitarian Aide Fund: This is the interesting one for those who made donations. Some people in the UK expressed to me they made donations for tsunami relief. 200k£($400,00 usd) starting balance, 509k£ ($1.18 million usd) in donations, and only 34k£($68 thousand usd) sent out. That gave them a ending balance in the Hum. Aide fund of 675k£ ($1.35 million usd) 

It's strange to see in a year they took in $1.1 million for Humanitarian Aide they only sent out 68 grand. Maybe they're saving the $ for a rainy day. 

 

It's been a few years since I've looked but I believe the policy now is to sweep the unused balances of these "restricted" funds and send the money back to the church headquarters. 

Phaedrus 

5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Agreed.  There's a thread about a book I never read.  I haven't commented.  Seems like a reasonable approach to me.  

I'm not a believer and I'd say that David still is yet I found it interesting.  He speaks highly of the church and I don't believe it is at all threatening to believers.  Topics like politics or religion are so emotionally charged it's easy to retreat into your own echo chamber.  I do it all the time.  But I've found when I step outside my comfort zone and truly listen to opposing ideas I found find people making thoughtful well reasoned arguments that shouldn't just be dismissed because of a bias I have.  It's one of the reasons why I participate here because I enjoy the subject of Mormonism and I like considered opinions on all sides. 

Phaedrus 

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is kind of rigid to assume people aren't listening to the podcast out of fear rather than another reason, such as they don't like podcasts.

It is not as if this renders it impossible to be familiar with David's ideas or the progression of them as he has written extensively in many places, including on this board though it has been awhile.

Great they can watch the 3 hour video which is also easily available.  If you care enough to be critical of someone and post about it in a forum you probably shouldn't do so from complete ignorance of the interview.  

Phaedrus 

It's strange that the strongest opinions in this thread seem to have come from those who didn't watch or listen to the interview.  I'd hate to be so rigid in my thinking that I'm afraid to listen to someone else's experience. 

Phaedrus 

First published in 1879 in the Salt Lake Tribune. Published many times since and with full sound and video currently on YouTube. 
 

Phaedrus 

On 11/17/2018 at 11:25 PM, carbon dioxide said:

That is too bad.  People end up giving up everything over small potatoes stuff.  I am always curious about people who make the appeal to the right or wrong side of history.  Whether one is on the right or wrong side of history really depends on the moment in time one lives and changes over time.  I am sure many people who say they are are on the right side of history today will be viewed on the wrong side of history during the Millennium as it will be said of them of our day "where are they now?"  I am sure many in Noah's day viewed Noah on the wrong side of history.  Then the rains came and they all were washed away in history while Noah remained.

It’s not small potatoes to a parent who lost a gay child to suicide. The 2015 policy crossed a line for my family. We had maintained our names on the records out of respect for our family’s history in the church. We couldn’t allow our names associated with a church we felt is actively hurting people so we resigned. Four or five families we know joined us.

Phaedrus 

Edit: to avoid confusion. I'm not a parent who has lost a child but I do know someone who has.