Before We Were Spirit Children?

[inquiringmind]

I don't know. Only God can know the answer, but I don't believe we currently have the ability to comprehend it.In fact

But you're as temporally infinite and uncreated as He is.

If you existed for an infinite amount of time before you had a spirit body, and you were aware of that passage of time, your mind must have been infinite, but now you can't even conceive of infinity.

In fact, by all the rules of logic and language, the idea that you were waiting fore something forever, and then got it, seems like a contradiction in terms, doesn't it?

Did God organize man to be totally illogical?

Was your mind designed to lie to you?

Also, I don't believe there was ever a time when God was not my Heavenly Father.

Then you don't believe you became a spirit child of Heavenly Father at some point in time?

Are you saying that we're all eternally (atemporally, timelessly) generated Children of God?

I won't argue that point, but then you don't believe that the cause always has to proceed the effect (or that we existed as individual intelligences before we were spirit children.)

Edited April 28, 2012 by inquiringmind

[altersteve]

inquiringmind,

Remember, we are sinners (living in a fallen state) and when we were born on this earth, we passed through the veil, which made us completely forget everything that we saw, heard, and experienced in the pre-mortal existence. The fact that we are unable to completely comprehend these concepts is not "illogical" at all.

[inquiringmind]

inquiringmind,

Remember, we are sinners (living in a fallen state) and when we were born on this earth, we passed through the veil, which made us completely forget everything that we saw, heard, and experienced in the pre-mortal existence. The fact that we are unable to completely comprehend these concepts is not "illogical" at all.

Wouldn't it take an infinite mind to comprehend infinity?

If you believe you've had an infinite past, and were able to comprehend it before you got here, aren't you saying that you had an infinite mind before you got here?

Also, if you forgot who and what you were, doesn't that amount to (at least a temporary) loss of identity?

How can you say your own individual identity is eternal of you lost it just by coming here?

(And aren't you really saying it's all just a mystery?)

[David T]

If we're getting technical, given what is know, it makes much more sense to me to speak of a time before we were 'adopted' as a child of God than of a time before we were 'born' as a child of God.

The scriptures present that we're adopted through covenant as the seed of Christ.

The scriptures present that we're adopted through covenant as the seed of Aaron and Moses.

The scriptures present that we're adopted through covenant as the seed of Abraham.

Paul speaks of those who aligned with the gospel under his ministration as his children.

While the 'born again' term is used, it is understood in the context of becoming (or awakening to one's status as) a new Covenant Child.

We're so used to saying 'literally a child of God' that it is not often recognized that literally does not exclusively mean biologically.

If I adopt a son, that child would literally be my child. I would literally be his Father. He would not be my biological offspring, and I would not be his biological father but he would, very literally, be my child.

I believe I am literally a child of God, and that he is literally my Father. The significance and meaning of this declaration, however, for me, goes far beyond just an assertion that my spirit body is the result of Celestial Reproduction.

Edited April 28, 2012 by David T

[inquiringmind]

Thank you David.

And do you believe that you literally existed, as an individual, for an infinite amount of time before you were adopted?

[altersteve]

Wouldn't it take an infinite mind to comprehend infinity?

The term "infinite mind" is a bit meaningless to me.

If you believe you've had an infinite past, and were able to comprehend it before you got here, aren't you saying that you had an infinite mind before you got here?

Who says we were able to comprehend it? I'm not saying we couldn't, but you're kind of putting words in my mouth here.

Also, if you forgot who and what you were, doesn't that amount to (at least a temporary) loss of identity?

No. Your identity is that you are a child of a loving Heavenly Father. This was never lost, whether you understand that it's your identity or not. A "loss of identity" would amount to becoming someone completely different. But you have always been the same person. You have always been you, and that's never changed, nor will it.

How can you say your own individual identity is eternal of you lost it just by coming here?

I never did say that. See above.

(And aren't you really saying it's all just a mystery?)

For now, yes, it's a "mystery." But it's not "just" a mystery. It's far more than that.

You seem to be thinking in a very linear fashion, and thus overlooking several aspects of the concept of "eternity." You need to understand that with eternity, and from God's perspective, it's probably not linear at all. God sees things from a whole different plane of existence than we do, so trying to understand all of it by asking all these questions (and making up terms like "infinite mind") doesn't get anyone anywhere. God has revealed everything that He wants us to know for now, and that's what I'm content with knowing. I'd like to know more, but that's one of the exciting things of this life -- recognizing that there are things out there that we don't and can't know (for now). The details of exaltation, eternity, and our pre-existence are some examples. Fortunately, the Lord has promised that the answers to all these "mysteries" will one day be revealed.

[inquiringmind]

You seem to be thinking in a very linear fashion, and thus overlooking several aspects of the concept of "eternity." You need to understand that with eternity, and from God's perspective, it's probably not linear at all

Are you saying that linear time could be part of creation?

The term "infinite mind" is a bit meaningless to me.

If linear time has always existed, and you have always existed, seven billion years wouldn't be a fraction of your past.

A trillion, a quadrillion wouldn't make a dent.

It would take a big mind to comprehend the last five or ten thousand years of human history, but your past would be infinite. and it would take an infinite mind to comprehend it.

You seem to be thinking in a very linear fashion, and thus overlooking several aspects of the concept of "eternity." You need to understand that with eternity, and from God's perspective, it's probably not linear at all

So you're suggesting that linear time is finite?

Would you also suggest that God generates it (or would you be more inclined to think that all of us uncreated intelligences generate it)?

Edited April 28, 2012 by inquiringmind

[altersteve]

Are you saying that linear time could be part of creation?

I'm not sure what you mean, and I don't see the relation between creation and what we're talking about.

Actually, I think I understand what you're asking. If I'm understanding your question correctly, then yes. But feel free to clarify so I can know for sure.

Edited April 28, 2012 by altersteve

[mfbukowski]

If we're getting technical, given what is know, it makes much more sense to me to speak of a time before we were 'adopted' as a child of God than of a time before we were 'born' as a child of God.

The scriptures present that we're adopted through covenant as the seed of Christ.

The scriptures present that we're adopted through covenant as the seed of Aaron and Moses.

The scriptures present that we're adopted through covenant as the seed of Abraham.

Paul speaks of those who aligned with the gospel under his ministration as his children.

While the 'born again' term is used, it is understood in the context of becoming (or awakening to one's status as) a new Covenant Child.

We're so used to saying 'literally a child of God' that it is not often recognized that literally does not exclusively mean biologically.

If I adopt a son, that child would literally be my child. I would literally be his Father. He would not be my biological offspring, and I would not be his biological father but he would, very literally, be my child.

I believe I am literally a child of God, and that he is literally my Father. The significance and meaning of this declaration, however, for me, goes far beyond just an assertion that my spirit body is the result of Celestial Reproduction.

I like it.

A lot.

This also has some implications for the initiatory ordinances symbolizing the pre-existence but of course we can't go there I guess.

You might want to check this out if you haven't:

http://mfbukowski.wordpress.com/hymn-of-the-soul-proto-mormon-gnostic-text/

Edited April 29, 2012 by mfbukowski