Kabbalah And Mormonism

[wenglund]

Jesus represented the Adam Kadmon template to his people which was totally out of context with whether he was THE Messiah or not. Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah or a King or anything of the sort. He was trying to internalize the message of one being their own saviour within their own spiritual kingdom with their own ability to ascend a totally material existance.

I read several of the parables of Jesus as suggesting that our saviors are not just within, but are without as well--particularly Jesus. For example, when we become a lost sheep, we have need of shepherds to help us return to the flock, When we fall among robbers and are stripped and beaten, we need saviors (Good Samaritans) to bind up our wounds and take care of us. When we become debtors, we have need of lenders who will forgive. As servants, we have our lord and savior, who will judge and place us in his kingdom depending upon whether we are watchful of him or not. As workers in the vineyard, we don't pay ourselves for our labors, but are paid by the householder, or lord of the vineyard. Etc. etc.

Besides, if we read the various stories where Christ healed the physically sick (see for example Mt. 8:1-17), which I view as emblematic of healing the spiritually sick, they don't entail instructing people to heal from within, but rather he demonstrates that their healing comes from him. He showed us that we don't take upon us our own infirmities and sickness, but rather "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, himself took our infirmities, and bare our sickness." (ibid verse 17--emphasis mine, note the reference to Isaiah)

As I see it, the tree of life within us, as symbolized in one sense by the parable of the olive tree (see here and here and here), may have limbs that become broken off or wild, and since we as trees cannot repair or prune ourselves, we has need of servants, husbandmen, and master of the vineyard.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 26, 2012 by wenglund

[sbjazzman]

I read several of the parables of Jesus as suggesting that our saviors are not just within, but are without as well--particularly Jesus. For example, when we become a lost sheep, we have need of shepherds to help us return to the flock, When we fall among robbers and are stripped and beaten, we need saviors (Good Samaritans) to bind up our wounds and take care of us. When we become debtors, we have need of lenders who will forgive. As servants, we have our lord and savior, who will judge and place us in his kingdom depending upon whether we are watchful of him or not. As workers in the vineyard, we don't pay ourselves for our labors, but are paid by the householder, or lord of the vineyard. Etc. etc.

Besides, if we read the various stories where Christ healed the physically sick (see for example Mt. 8:1-17), which I view as emblematic of healing the spiritually sick, they don't entail instructing people to heal from within, but rather he demonstrates that their healing comes from him. He showed us that we don't take upon us our own infirmities and sickness, but rather "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, himself took our infirmities, and bare our sickness." (ibid verse 17--emphasis mine, note the reference to Isaiah)

As I see it, the tree of life within us, as symbolized in one sense by the parable of the olive tree (see here and here and here), may have limbs that become broken off or wild, and since we as trees cannot repair or prune ourselves, we has need of servants, husbandmen, and master of the vineyard.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

http://www.oracleofthephoenix.com/forum/8-religion/35-the-aquarian-gospel.html

[wenglund]

If there are Mormon corresponences with what I've found, I would be happy to share them on my forum http://www.oracleoft....com/forum.html

I, personally, have no interest in the Phoenix Lights aspect of your book and web site, but from what I read of your explanation of Kabbalah, and specifically the Tree of Life, I found it to be very informative and relatively easy to understand. Nicely done.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 26, 2012 by wenglund

[wenglund]

http://www.oracleoft...ian-gospel.html

I can respect that others may ascribe to this gospel. However, I personally prefer the gospels I quoted and as contained in the LDS canon of scripture--they resonate more harmonically with my soul, and they have been confirmed to me as true by God through his Spirit. To each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited March 26, 2012 by wenglund

[mfbukowski]

Well I'm not exactly sure what Mormons believe. I came here to see if someone can explain why Isaiah 11:6 is depicted in the mountains ot Arizona in relationship to most historical UFO sighting ever recorded which I was a major witness to.

That scripture refers to what we call "The Millenium" in which Christ (the child in the scripture) will establish a theocracy- a one thousand year period in which there will be peace on earth- symbolized by the lion lying down with the lamb.

I don't know about any Arizona references, but we believe that "the mountain of the Lord's House" seen in other scriptures refers to his temple, and most specifically to the Salt Lake Temple which is of course high in the rocky mountains.

That was a fascinating video!

[sbjazzman]

That scripture refers to what we call "The Millenium" in which Christ (the child in the scripture) will establish a theocracy- a one thousand year period in which there will be peace on earth- symbolized by the lion lying down with the lamb.

I don't know about any Arizona references, but we believe that "the mountain of the Lord's House" seen in other scriptures refers to his temple, and most specifically to the Salt Lake Temple which is of course high in the rocky mountains.

That was a fascinating video!

Perhaps there is some correspondance with the Jewish/Kabbalistic concept of the Third Temple http://www.oracleofthephoenix.com/forum/6-kabbalah/38-the-third-temple.html

[mfbukowski]

Perhaps there is some correspondance with the Jewish/Kabbalistic concept of the Third Temple http://www.oracleoft...ird-temple.html

It's hard to say because your symbolic vocabulary is so different from ours, but I think there are parallels. We believe that the true temple rituals have been spiritually restored, and are based on the journey of Adam as he progresses toward becoming like God, through a type of theosis we call "exaltation". These rituals are very sacred to us and we do not speak much of them.

In a nutshell, our beliefs include that we existed before we came to earth, and the reason our spirits, which are literal spirit children of God, came here is to be tested to see if we would find the truth when it is presented to us. To make it a true test, Adam fell, as part of God's will for us to be tested, to give us the opportunity to sin, because without sin we cannot become righteous- there is no choice. Jesus Christ overcomes the effects of Adam's sin and the fall so that if we choose to believe in him, we put ourselves on the path to return to the Father. After this life, those who did not have the real opportunity to do so here, with have the opportunity in the spirit world to find the truth. Those who qualify themselves through the quality of their lives will be able to become like God, who is himself a glorified man who (here it becomes doctrinally debatable) perhaps was "once" a man like us. (in quotes because the idea implies successive eternities, and speaking in terms of time becomes problematic)

The ultimate objective is to have all mankind sealed together in one loving family- the family of God, returned to him and growing and becoming like him, glorified beings who progress throughout eternity.

Temple rituals and what we learn there teach us the symbolic vocabulary necessary to return to God.

This can all be seen literally or metaphorically, though most see it rather literally.

I can imagine that your experience with the Phoenix lights was a profoundly changing experience, but frankly I wonder if you believe that whatever caused the lights literally had some connection with Kabbalah, and what that might be.

[sbjazzman]

It's hard to say because your symbolic vocabulary is so different from ours, but I think there are parallels. We believe that the true temple rituals have been spiritually restored, and are based on the journey of Adam as he progresses toward becoming like God, through a type of theosis we call "exaltation". These rituals are very sacred to us and we do not speak much of them.

In a nutshell, our beliefs include that we existed before we came to earth, and the reason our spirits, which are literal spirit children of God, came here is to be tested to see if we would find the truth when it is presented to us. To make it a true test, Adam fell, as part of God's will for us to be tested, to give us the opportunity to sin, because without sin we cannot become righteous- there is no choice. Jesus Christ overcomes the effects of Adam's sin and the fall so that if we choose to believe in him, we put ourselves on the path to return to the Father. After this life, those who did not have the real opportunity to do so here, with have the opportunity in the spirit world to find the truth. Those who qualify themselves through the quality of their lives will be able to become like God, who is himself a glorified man who (here it becomes doctrinally debatable) perhaps was "once" a man like us. (in quotes because the idea implies successive eternities, and speaking in terms of time becomes problematic)

The ultimate objective is to have all mankind sealed together in one loving family- the family of God, returned to him and growing and becoming like him, glorified beings who progress throughout eternity.

Temple rituals and what we learn there teach us the symbolic vocabulary necessary to return to God.

This can all be seen literally or metaphorically, though most see it rather literally.

I can imagine that your experience with the Phoenix lights was a profoundly changing experience, but frankly I wonder if you believe that whatever caused the lights literally had some connection with Kabbalah, and what that might be.

The Foreword speaks to the connection http://www.oracleofthephoenix.com/foreword.html

[mfbukowski]

The Foreword speaks to the connection http://www.oracleoft...m/foreword.html

If I am reading you correctly you are saying essentially that we all stitch together our own world views out of our total life experience and essentially create our own realities.

If that is what you are saying, I agree, and I can see how that UFO experience must have been pivotal. I am not sure how I would have reacted if I had a similar experience.

[sbjazzman]

If I am reading you correctly you are saying essentially that we all stitch together our own world views out of our total life experience and essentially create our own realities.

If that is what you are saying, I agree, and I can see how that UFO experience must have been pivotal. I am not sure how I would have reacted if I had a similar experience.

Yes I am saying that. I've always subsribed to the notion of us creating our own realities. The UFO experience is a wild card in that process. It's an insertion point that confounds our senses and forces a shuffling of the deck so to speak. In this case - I was a rising executive in the world's largest technology company. My male ego was having its way. Soonafter the experience, the rug was pulled out under from me and I found myself having to live on my intuition much more without the same kind of rush of testosterone I got before. My creativity opened up and I no longer felt as driven to climb the latter. The holes appeared in many places where I sought to fill them with the typcial distractions we use until I had to come to terms with the emptyness. That when I had to sit in the pain instead of avoiding it and then I could ultimately heal. My methods of finding/synthesizing the middle road were key to being able to move on. It just naturally expanded into the symbology and process of Kabbalah which is about restoring the broken vessel. My worldvciew sees this in universal terms at a macro level -I just experienced it a micro level first. My transformation became our transformation. My day of judgment became all of our ways of coming to terms with our authentic selves - with new eyes that had been covered up for so long.

So you can consider my book an unveiling of personal revelations into how they correspond with revelations prevelant in the world today. It is not dogma, just reseach into the synchronicities of many many things.

[mfbukowski]

Yes I am saying that. I've always subsribed to the notion of us creating our own realities. The UFO experience is a wild card in that process. It's an insertion point that confounds our senses and forces a shuffling of the deck so to speak. In this case - I was a rising executive in the world's largest technology company. My male ego was having its way. Soonafter the experience, the rug was pulled out under from me and I found myself having to live on my intuition much more without the same kind of rush of testosterone I got before. My creativity opened up and I no longer felt as driven to climb the latter. The holes appeared in many places where I sought to fill them with the typcial distractions we use until I had to come to terms with the emptyness. That when I had to sit in the pain instead of avoiding it and then I could ultimately heal. My methods of finding/synthesizing the middle road were key to being able to move on. It just naturally expanded into the symbology and process of Kabbalah which is about restoring the broken vessel. My worldvciew sees this in universal terms at a macro level -I just experienced it a micro level first. My transformation became our transformation. My day of judgment became all of our ways of coming to terms with our authentic selves - with new eyes that had been covered up for so long.

So you can consider my book an unveiling of personal revelations into how they correspond with revelations prevelant in the world today. It is not dogma, just reseach into the synchronicities of many many things.

Got it.

We are definitely on the same page, though our worlds are different due to our different experiences. I have always been interested in philosophical questions, raised Catholic but after I entered into academic philosophy I became an atheist leftist student radical. I discovered what is called "process philosophy" which includes Pragmatism and the philosophy of John Dewey and William James, which I think we both just summarized in the last two posts. There are others which flesh that out. Once I understood the limitations of philosophy and what it was about, I abandoned the quest because I felt I now knew what my mission was- and studying more philosophy was no longer necessary to me, much less pursuing a career in it, so I went into various business pursuits.

William James speaks about the justification of beliefs based on "religious experience" and various other philosophers echo some of the views we both have according to the last couple of posts.

I found later that Mormonism fits perfectly with these views in my opinion, and during that process, had a strong religious experience which I could not deny came from God which I knew was a confirmation of the path I was on.

I have now been LDS for 32 years and my studies continue. I have found my home!

[sbjazzman]

Got it.

We are definitely on the same page, though our worlds are different due to our different experiences. I have always been interested in philosophical questions, raised Catholic but after I entered into academic philosophy I became an atheist leftist student radical. I discovered what is called "process philosophy" which includes Pragmatism and the philosophy of John Dewey and William James, which I think we both just summarized in the last two posts. There are others which flesh that out. Once I understood the limitations of philosophy and what it was about, I abandoned the quest because I felt I now knew what my mission was- and studying more philosophy was no longer necessary to me, much less pursuing a career in it, so I went into various business pursuits.

William James speaks about the justification of beliefs based on "religious experience" and various other philosophers echo some of the views we both have according to the last couple of posts.

I found later that Mormonism fits perfectly with these views in my opinion, and during that process, had a strong religious experience which I could not deny came from God which I knew was a confirmation of the path I was on.

I have now been LDS for 32 years and my studies continue. I have found my home!

I read this book a couple of months ago - you might find it interesting - here's an excerpt http://www.nirvikalpa.com/dbcontnt.php?page=faith

[sbjazzman]

I, personally, have no interest in the Phoenix Lights aspect of your book and web site, but from what I read of your explanation of Kabbalah, and specifically the Tree of Life, I found it to be very informative and relatively easy to understand. Nicely done.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks - you might want to check out the chapter called Alchemy which contains more material along that line.

[wenglund]

Thanks - you might want to check out the chapter called Alchemy which contains more material along that line.

Will do. While I may not agree with everything you say, including some of your foundational notions, I have found some tasty morsels to nibble on and uplifting strains of music to the ears.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[sbjazzman]

Will do. While I may not agree with everything you say, including some of your foundational notions, I have found some tasty morsels to nibble on and uplifting strains of music to the ears.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Thanks Wade - good to hear. Agreement is not the intent - it's to share some perspectives that people might find interesting.

[sbjazzman]

Here's an update to the Isaih's Vision thread with the help of a Messianic writer to explain more about the Kabbalistic concept of the Shekinah http://www.oracleofthephoenix.com/forum/5-phoenix-lights/46-isaiah-s-vision.html

[SamIam]

I might not agree with all of it, but I am looking forward to your post. It will no doubt be very reasoned and reasonable. Writing substantive posts can get very tedious, I know, but don't despair.

I have found some time for the moment to complete this conversation. I mentioned last time that I despaired and wondered of the value of my contributions to this topic. My despair was relative to the observation that after much effort of logical and reasonable interactive conversation with the members of this post that one lone voice, Bill Hamblin's (who I now understand to be a BYU prof of some sort) could do a drive by shooting, and then apparently on the strength of some presumed reputation could make blanket negative observations and not even have the courtesy to respond and support his observations with further polite substantiation. The disconcerting element was that without any expectation of validation of his weak observations several were swayed by the mere source of the dissonant voice and held him to no standard - they simply accepted and allowed him that privilege.

In this brief time which I have been on Mormon Dialogue, in one more way my testimony of Joseph Smith has grown and I believe that he bears witness to the fact that if we let the Charles Anton’s of our day steal our light then we will lose the personal pearls of great price, though of lesser magnitude, but similar to what we would have lost had Joseph Smith been so easily swayed. Fortunately for us he was of stronger metal than most. It is this that has caused my despair. My point is that when such preference is shown for an intellectual's perspective and that perspective is unwilling or incapable of examining the more significant realm of spiritual perspectives then there is no cause, point or significance in this forum for those of us that use intellectual means to initiate or supplement our efforts but base it primarily on the spiritual conclusions we achieve in our ponderings. Still, I accept the risk to complete the dialogue we began as I do not like to not complete what I say I am going to do and we agreed to examine the 10 sefirot and how I determined they related to the Joseph Smith Kingdom of God image.

I am going to develop this in pieces in order to move through the reasoning behind how I get from point A to point B. I believe this is necessary as one of the primary difficulties in relating Kabbalah to LDS Theology is the distinctly unique nomenclatures that each group uses to describe its concepts. Otherwise each topics terminology remains unique to the language of its origin which is used to describe the principles. Thus one remains Jewish mysticism while the other remains LDS theology and neither party recognizes, for the distinctness of their language, that the other is discussing the same material.

For a weak example it is like learning the slang terminologies of a foreign language. An English speaker can learn terminologies that are in Spanish for instance that he might never in a million years express the English equivalents but because that individual lacks the familiarity of being reared in a society that recoils at their use, he tosses them out without a sense of how impacting they might be to a native speaker of Spanish. Thus a Spanish speaker might do the same with a few English terms not realizing how offensive some things are to an English speaker. Thus, each party using a language that the other owns but they themselves do not fails to grasp the significance of what is communicated to the native speaker.

When some of us who “speak” LDS theological toss out a few mystical terms like 10 sefirot, for our lack of genuine native understanding we fail to realize we are using someone else’s language for concepts that we ourselves have a language to express and visa versa. It takes a great deal of effort and more than a little inspiration but I believe that to be in part the transition Joseph Smith had to make in bringing information from one source into his native language. However, on occasion he left a term here or there to communicate the origin of where his thoughts originated and where we might find a means of determining what he saw. This linking word for you and I to consider is one that is shared between the two concepts we are discussing. In the 10 sefirot, the top most point is “Keter” and in Joseph Smith’s Kingdom of God diagram the top most point is “Keter.” Here then is the loose string that we must pull if we are to unravel the mystery of uniting Kabbalah and LDS theology on these two embracing concepts.

The first transitional consideration which I wish to float will follow. I am being careful, I must admit. If I can’t make this paradigm shift seem reasonable and palatable then I must abandon the effort at whatever point it becomes apparent it is futile. If we do not condemn ourselves to an intellectual’s limitation for only accepting the “tangible proofs” but take the intellectuals offerings and apply a bit of reason and faith, this can go very far.

I can see no way to reconcile Jewish mysticism and Lds theology without first finding the common theme around which they should be united. While I am very much intrigued by Jewish methodologies for analyzing the sacred, that is not to say that I believe the Jews use of the methodologies always led them to the truth.

Actually, I don’t see the methodologies as uniquely Jewish per se, only that the concept of feasting upon the scriptures embraces the types of methods that the Jewish community has retained. I simply think they are more in line with a pattern of thinking that approaches greater similarities of thinking as God thinks. A faith based system as opposed to an evidentiary based system. Often I find the Jewish mind with its cultural training to be the greatest foundation for scientific spiritual inquiry and discovery. Able to equally embrace that which is not seen with a natural tendency to speak of the intanglible in the terms of evidentiary scientific reasoning they are willing to take leaps of spiritual expectations that intellectuals of other backgrounds fail to grasp. I see the same in the spiritually motivated scientific spiritual thinkers in the LDS church but sadly the numbers of persons from both origins are not many. Stil I always find remarkable that in so many cases the the common evidentiary approach can subsequently be shown to be incorrect and still is accredited as having more merit than a faith based system by too many. While faith based to some seems to be even less reliable, the actual requirements necessitate that conclusions fall within the standards of scripture and prophetic observation and / or build clearly upon that foundation.

As well, I believe as is commonly the case, that all ancient religious theology has its roots in a common source that was given to Adam and renewed when required. The process of reconciliation recognizes that much of the deterioration of religious knowledge during times of spiritual deficit was the process of diluting and diverting a previous standard of truth along discernable patterns of deviation that can be reunited with its restored religious components. The significant changes that obviously have taken place in texts like the Books of Enoch have become very evident when compared with similar material found in the narrative of the Pearl of Great price as a corrected ancient text. Thus pointing to the extreme nature of the distorted message of Christian religions by the time Joseph Smith became a force in the religious community. In light of the instruction of Alma 12:10-11 the process is readily understood.

Alma 12:10-11

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

While the Lord would have made the House of Israel a nation of Priests, they rejected that priesthood and so received a lesser priesthood. No keys remained to provide the gift of the Holy Ghost to the general population and so in one fell swoop they lost the keys to revelation and the gifts of the spirit to further guide the development of their spiritual understandings. Left to their own devices, the Alma 12 process takes place.

We see the obvious and profound mysteries taught in the restoration scriptures of the Book of Abraham dwindle in the hands of a faithless society “until they know nothing concerning his mysteries.” One of the consistently undermined doctrines was that of the Messiah. While Abraham and predecessors knew great things about the Savior later generations took imagery that spoke of him and in true looking beyond the mark fashion created an overly complex theology that lost the Messiah as the heart of the message. As their knowledge of the mysteries dwindled a pattern was established and more complex and less comprehendible interpretations were improvised to maintain a sense of mystery concerning the things that were becoming more mysterious to them with the passing of time. Still, while this is taking place, they are working with good doctrine that becomes intertwined with error.

Understanding an approach that immerses itself in the expectations of spiritual understanding will enable one to approach spiritual efforts with an expanded capacity to think outside of the western paradigm. Not to abandon the western style of thinking per se but to enhance with a process that favors the spirit. The methodologies and the example of the thinking paradigm of the Jews is exampled superbly in their mystical writings as well as the targums and other materials. To relegate them to secondary status means the energy required to embrace the methodologies will be lacking and it remains a superficial effort at best.

If we are going to try to use the materials that come from this period of decline of Jewish understanding we have to reconcile the core themes and then begin a PRDS process of bottom up reconciliation. We have to ponder and seek guidance on reestablishing the PSHAT levels and build the line upon line precept upon precept foundation that will integrate the vestiges and remnants of correct theology to find their common elements in the restored Gospel. Especially helpful to provide the standard is the Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Moses as these materials are closer to origin points, much older than the known written Kabbalah and represent corrected material that illustrates how clear certain departures were from the original standard of God’s word. One can see material that is obviously similar to Kabbalistic concepts that is also equally obviously much older than what is currently accepted as the written Kabbalah. It’s obvious presence, and just a touch of grade school analytics should negate the voice of dissenting observations to the contrary. If it does not then there is no need for further discussion. We have examples of Jewish mysticism, that in theory we as LDS accept as restored true knowledge in the Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Moses. This same Jewish mysticism parallels certain material found in Kabbalistic writings. For my mind, to disagree is to supplant the value of the testimony we have of the restored gospel with the supposed wisdom of weak minded intellects that can embrace the dualistic mentality that claims testimony but depends on scholarly evidence to sustain it.

The Book of Mormon also provides valuable material as an uncorrupted source of comparative material and of course the Old and New Testaments so richly intermeshed with conceptual material which is of Jewish origin. Using these as our guides we find the common ground and build from that foundation. Interestingly the vestiges and remnants that we can identify when brought into conformity with central gospel themes still make the mind reach and expand in very unique ways under the direction of the spirit. So it is not like we are simply rediscovering what we already know but we are extrapolating to potentially reach for expanded vistas of understanding. The methodologies of the Jews, I consider significant in this quest. The over simplified here for brevity concepts of PRDS is a powerful teacher of excellent thought processes that are not typical of western thinkers.

While Peshat is the lowest level in the PRDS methodology, to advance beyond in understanding is not to trivialize Peshat as lesser in any way. In fact it becomes a standard to keep further growth and understanding in line against a ruler of measurement. There were some statements made earlier on the issues of contextualization. Though the point is correct on one level it ignores the fact that there are guidelines that protect against that very thing. That rabbinical commentary from time to time fails to adhere to their rules does not mean that we should be so short sighted.

A second issue occurs that it is not uncommon that as one moves up the ladder of understanding a new level of understanding will fit perfectly for the one who has been so taught, while a person from an earlier level of understanding will not have developed sufficient comprehension to grasp the expanded understanding. An example might be the concept of being created in the image of God.

On one level one can surmise that Cain and Able both were created in the image of God. However, as the concept of image takes on more meaning we can understand that as time progresses Cain ceases to be in the image of God in terms of the definition of image embracing more than the physical characteristics but is inclusive of the spiritual qualities as well. When Seth is born and the narrative claims he is after the image of Adam in Gen 5:3 it is perfectly acceptable that this can have split implications. On the one hand Gen 1:26 has Adam as created in the image of God and Seth is in the image of Adam. Therefore, they both share qualities of spirituality that reflect the spiritual image of God and are suitable members of the bloodline of Christ. However, it can also reflect upon the fact, that as a result of the fall Adam’s physical image has changed and that Seth is born after the image of Adam’s fallen state and in that sense does not possess all of the qualities of God’s celestial image that were possessed in the beginning. Yet, Cain’s image may still be defined as distinctly different from both Adam’s and Seth’s as his lacks the spiritual imagery regardless of the similar image of the fallen bodies they possess in common. All these perspectives are correct but seemingly inconsistent to one who only comprehends image as similar in physical appearance. The point being that knowledge of higher levels of comprehension must be able to embrace Peshat. If any higher level of understanding destroys the meaning of the Peshat, then something is gravely wrong. Either the higher level is mistaken, or the Peshat was misunderstood and both must be reevaluated, since one cannot advance in greater light of understanding by going around the Peshat level.

That said, I believe that much understanding was had amongst the Fathers of the House of Israel back to Adam. As this knowledge was passed down to the righteous members of each generation it was magnified. When the people were less righteous it dwindled but some of its magnified understanding remained in remnants but the foundation was corrupted. Kabbalah is a collection of material that I believe originated at least in part as the doctrine of the temple. It retains vestiges of significant understandings from the Sod, Remez, Drash levels but again the Peshat must be reestablished and the puzzle reconstructed under the enlightening influence of the spirit. Any Sod levels are lost to us as individuals. However they are renewed in experiences such as Lehi’s and Nephi’s the tree of life visions or Enoch’s or Moses vision’s of the eternities which, according to Bruce R. McConkie, are an intrinsic part of having one’s calling and election made sure:

Those who receive the Second Comforter see the visions of eternity and have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom. "And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old," saith the Lord, "and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom. Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations. And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught. For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man." (D&C 76:7-10.) (Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah: 1982, 680)

There are several parallels of spiritual events in the Book of Mormon that seem to match the Jewish expectations of a Shekinah experience. We see the concept as a vision, however, I have come to view them as achieving a SOD level understanding through an experience that matches the Shekinah or as referenced in Lehi’s vision a pillar of fire that is part of the revelatory process. The essence is these are only lost to us as they are an individual learning experiences and that we must take the revealed information and act upon it to achieve our own Sod revealing Shekinah experience which I believe is still available to those who continue the quest. I consider these at first the calling and election made sure events that are uncommon but still take place amongst us. Thereafter they are the communications that come by conversing with the Lord.

So to proceed in this endeavor of showing some of the correlations between the 10 sefirot and the Kingdom of God Image of Joseph Smith we have to go in search of a Peshat level of understanding that will sustain the foundation of both images and indeed all interpretive keys in scripture that will be used. At least on one level the Jews make this an easy starting point as this Peshat understanding that I think is most significant is found in Moses 6:63:

Moses 6:63

63 And behold, all things have their likeness, and all things are created and made to bear record of me, both things which are temporal, and things which are spiritual; things which are in the heavens above, and things which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth, and things which are under the earth, both above and beneath: all things bear record of me.

The events of this probationary period proceed upon the plan of our Father in Heaven and many events preceded Christ’s actual birth that challenged accepted Jewish expectations of a Messianic rescue. These major misconceptions of salvation initiated changes in the scriptural material, and since these changes were based on the central doctrine of the Messiah the scriptural record that spoke of his role was altered and the Messiah became less recognizable over time. While clearly this process was taking place and the doctrine of the Messiah was subject to alteration there may be more involved here than is traditionally considered.

If you ponder on the Old Testament and pretend to lack the New Testament clarity of Christ or the Book of Mormon testimony of Christ, I find it is extremely difficult to genuinely identify a distinctive duality of God that would identify God the Father as a separate entity from Jesus Christ. In fact, even the allusions that we tend to use to identify Christ in the Old Testament tend only to take form after our awareness of Christ and his life. If we lacked our current level of knowledge would we clearly be able to identify him from the altered record of the Old Testament? I for one would find it a challenge. However, if you compare Joseph Smiths efforts in the Book of Moses and Abraham, the corrupted record is cleansed and the Savior returns to a more centrally identifiable theme. This then becomes the pattern for our continued research. We must continue to allow the Holy Ghost to cleanse the record for us a piece at a time and return Christ as the central theme in the Kabbalistic resources we have at our disposal. That is the example that is set for us by Joseph Smith and if we are sincerely interested in seeing the union of LDS theology with Kabbalah we can only do so by following Joseph’s lead. This alone will cause many egregious departures in Kabbalah to reconcile appropriately and at the same time will then give an expanded vista for our own pondering upon LDS theology to swell into considerations of remarkable interest. Still to engage in such a process is wasted without the guidance of the spirit.

The scriptural record and the restored gospel provide a multitude of symbolism that provide material to reestablish the foundation that I feel is missing from much of the Jewish material and significantly so the Kabbalah. Clearly the most fundamental element is to start reevaluating the Kabbalistic themes with the intent of establishing Jesus Christ as the central message of the material as is indicated in the Moses verses above. Isaiah also warns of the same difficulty:

(Isaiah 8:14-15.)

14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

I am aware that this is one of those wonderful ideas that appears to me to be so correct an approach that it seems shocking when it winds up alienating both sides of the fence. The Jews get excited because of acknowledging and reintroducing Jesus Christ to the mystery and the LDS intellectual’s contingent falsely contend the mystery is that anyone would give credit to the mystical Jews for being able to add to our understanding of the restored gospel. There are probably few friends to be made from this effort. However, to make the connection of the sefirot to the Joseph Smith Kingdom of God image this chasm has to be bridged. So, applying the methodologies of the Jews from a PRDS perspective we might could use the restored gospel as a means of correcting some basic obvious efforts that have removed Christ from the Jewish message. Again this is one of the significant adjustments in the Book of Moses that enables Joseph Smith to take the Genesis record and expands but a few chapters of material into a rich and valuable scriptural resource. Reinserting Jesus Christ into the message expands it and gives the message a more correct meaning for us to derive a more correct interpretation.

For the moment I am going to stop here to see how this idea resonates and to let it settle upon the thoughts of the members of this forum. We have a ways to go but this principle is the key starting point to the end destination.

[volgadon]

When some of us who “speak” LDS theological toss out a few mystical terms like 10 sefirot, for our lack of genuine native understanding we fail to realize we are using someone else’s language for concepts that we ourselves have a language to express and visa versa. It takes a great deal of effort and more than a little inspiration but I believe that to be in part the transition Joseph Smith had to make in bringing information from one source into his native language. However, on occasion he left a term here or there to communicate the origin of where his thoughts originated and where we might find a means of determining what he saw. This linking word for you and I to consider is one that is shared between the two concepts we are discussing. In the 10 sefirot, the top most point is “Keter” and in Joseph Smith’s Kingdom of God diagram the top most point is “Keter.” Here then is the loose string that we must pull if we are to unravel the mystery of uniting Kabbalah and LDS theology on these two embracing concepts.

I agree, it is a good approach to start from a point of mutual contact, so lets explore keter. The thing to look for is whether or not they are both talking about the same thing rather than it being a universal, intuitive symbol or concept.

Shall we decide upon which sources to use?

Edited April 25, 2012 by volgadon

[DubaDNura]

I'm writing this on my iPhone and so I'll try to add more later. The long and short of it is that Keter is desire or pleasure. That desire can be expressed in words, but the verbal expression cannot come close to capturing the true desire. Try telling your wife that you love her in a way that adequately expresses your true feelings. So while we say that Keter can be revealed in Binah (logic), the revelation is a far cry from the essential desire.

The term Keter refers to a crown which sits upon the King's head. The crown is made of mere physical substance. Shiny objects they may be, but they are nothing compared to the king himself. Nonetheless, the crown symbolizes all of what the king is. Kings refer to their office as "the crown." This is similar to how giving your wife or fiancé a rose symbolizes your love for her. The rose is a cheap piece of agriculture (cheaper still of your father in law runs a flower shop, as is my case). But nonetheless it expresses love more effectively than even words.

Some of the Rebbe Nachman material I wrote and that was moved over to the beginning of this thread is about Keter.

[SamIam]

I agree, it is a good approach to start from a point of mutual contact, so lets explore keter. The thing to look for is whether or not they are both talking about the same thing rather than it being a universal, intuitive symbol or concept.

Shall we decide upon which sources to use?

Please suggest what comes to mind for you and lets see how this goes. I have already developed a process of getting from point a to point b which I hope will be able to remain essentially intact. This will be a good test. What sources do you suggest?

[SamIam]

I'm writing this on my iPhone and so I'll try to add more later. The long and short of it is that Keter is desire or pleasure. That desire can be expressed in words, but the verbal expression cannot come close to capturing the true desire. Try telling your wife that you love her in a way that adequately expresses your true feelings. So while we say that Keter can be revealed in Binah (logic), the revelation is a far cry from the essential desire.

The term Keter refers to a crown which sits upon the King's head. The crown is made of mere physical substance. Shiny objects they may be, but they are nothing compared to the king himself. Nonetheless, the crown symbolizes all of what the king is. Kings refer to their office as "the crown." This is similar to how giving your wife or fiancé a rose symbolizes your love for her. The rose is a cheap piece of agriculture (cheaper still of your father in law runs a flower shop, as is my case). But nonetheless it expresses love more effectively than even words.

Some of the Rebbe Nachman material I wrote and that was moved over to the beginning of this thread is about Keter.

I would like to explore your material. When you say it was moved over does that mean it is on this thread somewhere?

[volgadon]

I would like to explore your material. When you say it was moved over does that mean it is on this thread somewhere?

They were originally part of a different thread, but try post #2 in this thread.

[DubaDNura]

They were originally part of a different thread, but try post #2 in this thread.

What that guy said.

[volgadon]

Please suggest what comes to mind for you and lets see how this goes. I have already developed a process of getting from point a to point b which I hope will be able to remain essentially intact. This will be a good test. What sources do you suggest?

I am fine for now with your suggested process. It might take me a bit to come up with a list, but we probably don't want to overdo it at the very beginning. I will look for English translations as they'll save me the time of knocking out a translation. I suggest approaching this holistically, using both early and later sources on God as king and on crowns. One for sure is ibn Gabirol's Keter Malchut. Probably Gikatilla as well.

[SamIam]

I am fine for now with your suggested process. It might take me a bit to come up with a list, but we probably don't want to overdo it at the very beginning. I will look for English translations as they'll save me the time of knocking out a translation. I suggest approaching this holistically, using both early and later sources on God as king and on crowns. One for sure is ibn Gabirol's Keter Malchut. Probably Gikatilla as well.

I wonder if we are not already starting from differing perspectives. We may have to go slower and I will take some time to review your sources. They will be best for me if they are online English translations. If you have publications that are otherwise that I can procure through the interlibrary system I can do that as well. The Standard Works, have to be on our list. Orson Hyde's portrayal of Joseph Smith's Kingdom of God image and text as well. From my perspective we are trying to find corollaries in Kabbalism that we can use according to PRDS type processes to relate the 10 sefirot to the Kingdom of God image and Book of Mormon imagery. We are really trying to bridge a gap that I have not observed bridged in the past to find examples in one medium that represent elements in the other so that we can then begin to cross over in communication. This relies on our own skills of extrapolation to create the connective potential. I plan to isolate specifically on the 10 sefirot, which for the breadth width and height of its reach isn’t much of a isolation but it is the focus.