Does Ephesians teach that the church always needs living apostles on the earth?

[Palerider]

Great post, Rob. While I think your interpretation of Eph. 2:20 is plausible, it requires certain assumptions. You speak of a "foundation" being something in the past or temporary. It seems like you are saying the "foundation" is the teaching, witness, and/or revelation of the original apostles and prophets. However, Eph. 2:20 is a genitive of material, meaning the foundation that consists of the apostles and prophets or made up of the apostles and prophets (like a table of wood). The role of these apostles and prophets is defined in Eph. 3:5: they receive the mysteries and revelations of God. I strongly recommend Raymond Brown, "The Pre-Christian Semitic Concept of 'Mystery'," Catholic Biblical Quarterly 20:4 (1958), which links the OT concept of prophets being ushered into the divine council (e.g. Amos 3:7) with the NT concept of apostles and prophets being ushered into the divine mysteries.

The question in my view becomes:

Is it the office of apostles and prophets that is the foundation or the message of the originals? If the latter, then your view makes complete sense. If the former, then it seems to me that the roles are still necessary today. The difference is that the text says the apostles and prophets themselves make up the foundation. The latter one seems a bit ad hoc.

To answer your last question, a third option is the "work" that was done by the Apostles is the foundation.

Here is a parable in Matthew 13: 24-30 I think is too often overlooked by LDS. It has direct bearing on the conversation at hand.

The Man (God) sews good seed in His field (we assume his servants in mortality; prophets and Apostles aid in that effort of laying a foundation).

While these

[Vance]

I have explained why these verses prove no such thing.

And I have explained why your explanation is worthless.

Verse 8 uses the plural term "gifts," not the singular "gift."

And you think the gift of the Holy Ghost is a single gift?

1 Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

. . .

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

"The measure of Christ's gift" in verse 7 refers to the gift Christ gives each person ("to each one of us grace was given"), which varies from person to person (see the very similar language Paul uses in Romans 12:6).

And the gifts of the Spirit aren't gifts of grace?

As I have explained elsewhere, although Christ called men to be his apostles prior to his death and resurrection, they didn't begin functioning as apostles in the full sense until after his ascension.

Really?

Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

. . . .

27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

. . .

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

. . .

40

[Vance]

Vance,

It won't help your case to argue that the clause beginning with "until" in verse 13 connects to all three of the phrases in verse 12. Even if that is so, it doesn't mean that the ministries of all five types mentioned in verse 11 must have living representatives on the earth for the church to function or grow.

Says you.

The fact is each phrase following vs. 11 is dependent upon a preceeding phrase, making them all dependent upon verse 11.

No. But no one can do that (cf. Matt. 16:18).

Sorry, but this verse doesn't support you argument.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The "rock" is the rock of revelation from God (see verse 17).

"the gates of hell" refer to gates of the world of the dead. Meaning that the gates of the world of the dead cannot stop the activities of the church with regard to the salvation of the dead.

Edited to add an additional clue; It is the church that would assault the "gates of hell". The gates are permanent structures for defence they don't assaut (take the offence against) the church.

That verse has NOTHING to do with the long term viability of the ancient church.

The foundation of the apostles and prophets has been was laid, and the church continues to grow grew and be built up on that foundation colapsed with the destruction of the foundation.

And unfortunately for you that foundation was destroyed and so the ancient church fell into apostasy.

Thank God it has been restored in the latter-days.

[Vance]

To answer your last question, a third option is the "work" that was done by the Apostles is the foundation.

There is no foundation (no pun intended) for that option in scripture. It was the apostles and prophets that were the foundation not their teachings. Check out the scriptures for yourself.

[WalkerW]

WalkerW,

Thank you the compliment and for the serious and thoughtful response.

Construing "the foundation of the apostles and prophets" in Ephesians 2:20 as a genitive of material is a plausible and contextually meaningful view; I think it's probably the best way of construing the genitive. I don't think this exegesis is incompatible with mine, however. The "holy temple" is composed of Christ Jesus as the "cornerstone," the apostles and prophets as the "foundation," and other believers evidently as stones in the edifice of the building. Christ is in heaven, but this doesn't prevent him from continuing to be the cornerstone. The apostles and prophets have passed away and (in my understanding) are with Christ awaiting the coming resurrection, but they have served their role as the foundation. That role is not merely or exclusively their teaching, witness, and revelation, but historically their role as, for the most part, the very first believers in Christ following his death and resurrection. It is both/and, not either/or, with regard to these facets of their role as the foundation. In any case, they are the foundation of the church because they were those early believers through whom Christ made known his resurrection and the truths on which the church's existence depends. Thus, I see no problem in affirming that the apostles and prophets themselves, and not merely their teaching, is the foundation of the church. Likewise, Christ himself, not merely his sacrificial death and resurrection to immortality, is the cornerstone of the church, but of course he is that cornerstone because he did those things for us.

Ephesians 3:5 says nothing to indicate that more mysteries and revelations will continue to be delivered to the church via future generations of apostles and prophets. The text speaks of a specific mystery as having been revealed through those foundational ministry persons. If we knew that Christ had revelations to deliver to us today, we would know that such persons are needed on the earth today; but the text itself does not establish that need.

Thanks again.

I don't see a problem with your interpretation of Eph. 2:20. Quite plausible. Funny enough, I don't think your interpretation would necessarily conflict with LDS theology. Eph. 2:20 just wouldn't be a proof text for current apostles and prophets.

However, regarding Eph. 3:5: true, it does refer to a specific revelation. However, the purpose of the apostles and prophets is made known: revelation. Books like John's Revelation indicates that there were subsequent revelations. We then have to ask as to whether this revelatory role was ever supposed to cease. Eph. 2:20 and 3:5 merely demonstrate that the apostles and prophets are foundational to the Christian church and were at the time of the letter receiving revelation. The New Testament model is that of revelatory apostles. Was this supposed to be the norm?

But this line of argumentation gets away from the exegesis of Eph. 2:20 and 3:5 alone.

[Palerider]

There is no foundation (no pun intended) for that option in scripture. It was the apostles and prophets that were the foundation not their teachings. Check out the scriptures for yourself.

I think the teachings and work of the original Apostles did lay an excellent foundation for the ancient church. As gifted officers they were certainly a part of that foundation. But Paul himself warned of those who would bring in damnable heresies (For such are ^afalse apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.), not sparing the flock and that there would be a falling away.

1 Cor. 4:9 states: For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.

Also John warned in Revelations that the saints would be overcome.

I have no doubt that the Lord will most likely use a priesthood organization again when He personally reigns upon the earth to aid in bringing the church/Israel to her full stature and that they will "all come in the unity of the faith".

Until that harvest takes place as stated in Matthew 13, the church continues in the "wilderness".

[Sky]

Regardless of the scripture in Ephesians, is there anybody out there who honestly does not want to believe in modern prophets and apostles and in an authorized Priesthood organization? It

[Palerider]

Regardless of the scripture in Ephesians, is there anybody out there who honestly does not want to believe in modern prophets and apostles and in an authorized Priesthood organization? It

[zerinus]

The five kinds of ministry people equip the saints; the saints do the work of the ministry; and the work of the ministry builds up the church. One does not need all five kinds of ministry people living today for the church to continue being built up.

Wrong! The the "ministry" is part of the "equipment". They are in fact the "equipment". You read that wrong, as I had thought you would. I noticed that word in quotes before I gave the alternate translations, and I had figured you might jump on that one. But sorry, you are wrong again! The "ministry" is the actual "equipment" the body of the Church uses for the "edifying" of the saints.

[ebeddoulos]

The major prooftext that Mormons (and others) use to prove that apostles and prophets are needed perpetually in the church is Ephesians 4:11-13. These verses read as follows (all biblical quotations are taken from the KJV):

~SNIP~

In Ephesians 4:11-13, the action or state cannot be that expressed by the verb

[Rob Bowman]

ebeddoulos,

You put an awful lot of thought and work into your reply, and I appreciate it. I must be honest with you, though, and say that your suggestion that ed?ken ("gave") in Ephesians 4:11 is proleptic has zero chance of being correct. This extremely rare usage is exemplified by Romans 8:30 (and to be honest I don't know of any other examples off the top of my head), where "these he also glorified" uses an aorist verb apparently to express the certainty of an event that remains future. This cannot apply in Ephesians 4:11 because, as everyone agrees, the church actually did have apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers prior to Paul writing Ephesians.

The addition of the words "to be" in many English versions expresses the idea that in each case "some" were given to serve in this or that capacity. Thus, Christ gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, etc. Other versions express the exact same idea using as: "he gave some as apostles, some as prophets," etc. (NAB, NASB, etc.). Still others express the idea in a more literal fashion by simply placing a comma between "some" and the term of ministry: "and he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets," etc. (KJV). Others mix these ways of expressing the idea. None of these translations mean that the five ministries did not exist in Paul's day but would certainly begin to exist at some time in the future. This isn't even the point of the Worldwide English NT rendering, though I can see how you could take it that way. Again, everyone (that I know!) agrees that apostles, prophets, etc., existed already in Paul's day.

As you put it, nice try, though!

[Vance]

I think the teachings and work of the original Apostles did lay an excellent foundation for the ancient church. As gifted officers they were certainly a part of that foundation.

The scriptures as clear. The apostles and prophets were not "a part of that foundation" but rather they WERE the foundation.

But Paul himself warned of those who would bring in damnable heresies (For such are ^afalse apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.), not sparing the flock and that there would be a falling away.

Yes, the great apostasy was predicted.

What part of "not sparing the flock" is so difficult to understand?

Also John warned in Revelations that the saints would be overcome.

And indeed they were.

Thus setting up the need for the "restitution of all things".

[Palerider]

The scriptures as clear. The apostles and prophets were not "a part of that foundation" but rather they WERE the foundation.

Yes, the great apostasy was predicted.

What part of "not sparing the flock" is so difficult to understand?

And indeed they were.

Thus setting up the need for the "restitution of all things".

Which will occur at Christ's coming......show me where it says differently. Show me something Biblical that sets a pre-millenium timeline for that restitution.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Which will occur at Christ's coming......show me where it says differently. Show me something Biblical that sets a pre-millenium timeline for that restitution.

Were do the scipitures says that the whole of the resitituion will happen at one point in time?

We know that there will be porphets on the earth before Christ returns per Revelations. 2 of them will be killed and then resurrected. The point is that they are here before Christ returns.

I don't know were you get this idea that any part of the restituion will happen only at Christ's comming.

[zerinus]

Before we discuss that question, though, one serious problem ought to be noted concerning the use of Ephesians 4:11 to justify the restoration of apostles and prophets in the LDS Church. Mormons acknowledge that apostles and prophets disappeared from the scene for some seventeen centuries. If, then, Ephesians 4:11 is saying that Christ gave the church apostles and prophets and that those ministries were to continue until the church was perfected, how is it that they were allowed to disappear? The persecution suffered by the church is no answer, since the apostles were not all killed at once and the church grew larger and larger during the fiercest times of persecution. If new apostles were needed, why didn

[Vance]

Which will occur at Christ's coming......show me where it says differently. Show me something Biblical that sets a pre-millenium timeline for that restitution.

Rev 14 indicates that the gospel will be restored prior to the great destruction preceding the second coming.

[Rob Bowman]

WalkerW,

If I have established that the Ephesians texts are not solid proof texts for the LDS doctrine that the church must always have living apostles and prophets on the earth, I have accomplished what I set out to do in this thread. There are other considerations that, as you say, go beyond the exegesis of these texts, and those must also be examined.

Thanks again.

I don't see a problem with your interpretation of Eph. 2:20. Quite plausible. Funny enough, I don't think your interpretation would necessarily conflict with LDS theology. Eph. 2:20 just wouldn't be a proof text for current apostles and prophets.

However, regarding Eph. 3:5: true, it does refer to a specific revelation. However, the purpose of the apostles and prophets is made known: revelation. Books like John's Revelation indicates that there were subsequent revelations. We then have to ask as to whether this revelatory role was ever supposed to cease. Eph. 2:20 and 3:5 merely demonstrate that the apostles and prophets are foundational to the Christian church and were at the time of the letter receiving revelation. The New Testament model is that of revelatory apostles. Was this supposed to be the norm?

But this line of argumentation gets away from the exegesis of Eph. 2:20 and 3:5 alone.

[Ahab]

...We do not need apostles and prophets living on the earth today for the church to rest on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Indeed, as I have explained, Paul

[Zakuska]

I see a pattern...

Moses had a governing body of twelve elders, one from each tribe.

"These are those that were numbered . . . and the princes of Israel, being twelve men: each one was for the house of his fathers." Numbers 1:44

This order continued after Moses.

"Now therefore take you twelve men out of the tribes of Israel, out of every tribe a man." Joshua 3:12

The calling of twelve men seems to exist in the Old Testament, and they possible like unto the early Christian Apostles.

Also a body of Seventies

"AND he said unto Moses, Come up unto the LORD, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off." (Ex. 24: 1)

"Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: (Ex. 24: 9)

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee. (Num. 11: 16)

"And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle." (Num. 11: 24)

The Word "Sanhedran" actually means Seventies.

So if God never changes... why all of a sudden has the church been stripped of its skeleton and is lying on the ground, a blob of flesh and sinues lacking the power of God?

[Ahab]

I see a pattern...

So if God never changes... why all of a sudden has the church been stripped of its skeleton and is lying on the ground, a blob of flesh and sinues lacking the power of God?

I think Rob's point is that our Lord's apostles and prophets of the past are still our Lord's prophets and apostles today, regardless of the fact that they're dead and don't say anything else other than what they said (or more specifically, wrote down) in the past.

We (LDS) agree on that point, but we also accept our Lord's apostles and prophets who are speaking (and writing stuff down) today, rather than being limited to only our Lord's apostles and prophets of the past.

In short, we (LDS) accept MORE from our Lord than people who limit themselves to accepting only what they believe our Lord's prophets and apostles said in the past.

[Palerider]

Rev 14 indicates that the gospel will be restored prior to the great destruction preceding the second coming.

If you're seriously going to attempt to timeline Revelations then look at what occurs in verse 1 of Revelations 14, BEFORE the angel flies.

[Rob Bowman]

Sky,

You wrote:

Regardless of the scripture in Ephesians, is there anybody out there who honestly does not want to believe in modern prophets and apostles and in an authorized Priesthood organization? It

[Zakuska]

If you're seriously going to attempt to timeline Revelations then look at what occurs in verse 1 of Revelations 14, BEFORE the angel flies.

Did not Christ stand on Mt. Zion and seal 144000 out of the tribes of Israel on the day of Pentacost and shortly after?

[Palerider]

Did not Christ stand on Mt. Zion and seal 144000 out of the tribes of Israel on the day of Pentacost and shortly after?

Show me THAT one in scripture! I'd love to see it.

[Vance]

If you're seriously going to attempt to timeline Revelations then look at what occurs in verse 1 of Revelations 14, BEFORE the angel flies.

Rev 7 and 8 indicate clearly that those 144K are "sealed" PRIOR to the second coming. Of course for them to be "sealed" they would need the gospel. So your complaint is unfounded.

Edited to add; Also I would suggest that Mal 4:5-6 clearly show that the work of "turn(ing) the heart of the fathers to the children", MUST occur "before the great and dreadful day of the Lord".

Also, Jesus Himself prophesied of an Elias coming first to restore.

Matt 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Also Jesus Himself prophesied the gospel be preached BEFORE the end.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.