“Religion as justification for discrimination in history”—Agree or Disagree?

[kiwi57]

8 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Whatever else may be said about you, kiwi, you're readers can always count on an authentic, unvarnished LDS opinion.  You may take this as high praise, but your attitude and approach brings to mind local LDS leaders when I was growing up in Southern Utah in the 1980s.  Authentic.  Unvarnished.  And with any luck, the brethren will soon call you to be in charge of their millennial and minority retention initiatives, to say nothing of the subject matter at hand.  

And indeed, you do say nothing about the subject matter at hand.

My personal tastes in music, art or anything else have precisely no relevance to LDS life and teaching, or indeed to anything at all that can be meaningfully debated. There is a saying you might have heard of: De gustibus non est disputandum, there can be no debate about matters of taste. That you should try to turn matters of personal taste into some kind of negative Mormon stereotype is not at all surprising to me.

 

Doo-bee-doo-bee-doo
Doo-doo-dee-dah
dah-dah-dah-dah-dah

--Frank Sinatra, 1966

 

Edited February 14, 2018 by kiwi57

[Hestia]

No trading personal insults.  Either get back on topic or expect to be banned from the thread.

[Five Solas]

On 2/14/2018 at 3:22 PM, kiwi57 said:

And indeed, you do say nothing about the subject matter at hand.

My personal tastes in music, art or anything else have precisely no relevance to LDS life and teaching, or indeed to anything at all that can be meaningfully debated. There is a saying you might have heard of: De gustibus non est disputandum, there can be no debate about matters of taste. That you should try to turn matters of personal taste into some kind of negative Mormon stereotype is not at all surprising to me.

 

Doo-bee-doo-bee-doo
Doo-doo-dee-dah
dah-dah-dah-dah-dah

--Frank Sinatra, 1966

You said a bit more than that, kiwi.  You likened hip-hop music to a "compost heap" and then told us if you had the choice--you'd take the compost.  Given this thread is about religion-inspired discrimination, perhaps we're not so far from the topic as it might seem. 

When I was in high school (Hillcrest High, Midvale UT class of '87) I loathed the Heavy Metal genre.  And I'll tell you why I hated it.  It was because the boys that listened to it weren't like me.  They grew their hair long.  They wore t-shirts, not the polo shirts I wore like a uniform.  They weren't the top students, college-bound like I knew I would be.  They could sometimes be found smoking cigarettes behind the 7-Eleven across the street.  Rumor had it (although I never witnessed it personally) - some of them even used drugs.  I looked down on them, and my contempt logically extended to their music.  And this lasted years afterword.  I remember chastising my little brother when I saw he'd bought a CD of Metallica's "Black Album"--how could he listen to that?!?  Such was the power of the association I had between the music and the people I held in low esteem.  I didn't want to think of my little brother as one of them. 

To cut a long story short--I had a change of heart.  I own several Metallica albums myself now and a number of others from that genre besides.  It's not what I listen to most (I'm still a New Waver at heart as anyone who's paid attention to my frequent lyrics citations has already figured out)--but there's certainly a time & place for it, and my life is a little richer because I've dialed back my pride and opened my mind. 

As most readers would know (although perhaps not you), hip-hop is a music genre developed in the United States by inner-city African-Americans in the 1970's.  Let the historical significance sink in for a moment and then reflect on the depth of your scorn, your animosity--how you dismiss it as compost. 

Here's what I suggest to you, kiwi.  Resist the impulse to make some fiery retort that my experience has zero to do with yours.  Instead, search your heart.  You may find room to grow--and your life could be a bit richer as a result. 

:0)

--Erik

__________________________________________________

 

It's all good, from Diego to the Bay
Your city is the bomb if your city making pay
Throw up a finger if ya feel the same way
Dre putting it down for Californ-I-A

--Tupac Shakur, 1996

[Daniel2]

Hey, Erik and Kiwi,

Thanks for respecting the Mod's request to avoid personal insults and stay on topic going forward.

D

[kiwi57]

20 hours ago, Five Solas said:

You said a bit more than that, kiwi.  You likened hip-hop music to a "compost heap" and then told us if you had the choice--you'd take the compost.  Given this thread is about religion-inspired discrimination, perhaps we're not so far from the topic as it might seem. 

I'm not engaging in "religion-inspired discrimination."  I'm describing my taste in music.

The two things are unrelated.

Quote

When I was in high school (Hillcrest High, Midvale UT class of '87) I loathed the Heavy Metal genre.  And I'll tell you why I hated it.  It was because the boys that listened to it weren't like me.  They grew their hair long.  They wore t-shirts, not the polo shirts I wore like a uniform.  They weren't the top students, college-bound like I knew I would be.  They could sometimes be found smoking cigarettes behind the 7-Eleven across the street.  Rumor had it (although I never witnessed it personally) - some of them even used drugs.  I looked down on them, and my contempt logically extended to their music.  And this lasted years afterword.  I remember chastising my little brother when I saw he'd bought a CD of Metallica's "Black Album"--how could he listen to that?!?  Such was the power of the association I had between the music and the people I held in low esteem.  I didn't want to think of my little brother as one of them. 

To cut a long story short--I had a change of heart.  I own several Metallica albums myself now and a number of others from that genre besides.  It's not what I listen to most (I'm still a New Waver at heart as anyone who's paid attention to my frequent lyrics citations has already figured out)--but there's certainly a time & place for it, and my life is a little richer because I've dialed back my pride and opened my mind.

Congratulations, but that has nothing to do with my taste in music.

Quote

As most readers would know (although perhaps not you), hip-hop is a music genre developed in the United States by inner-city African-Americans in the 1970's.  Let the historical significance sink in for a moment and then reflect on the depth of your scorn, your animosity--how you dismiss it as compost.

Its origins are irrelevant to me. The lyrics are yelled, not sung, there are frequent obscenities and references to violence, and there is no actual music.

There is no religion in any of that.

There is only taste.

Quote

Here's what I suggest to you, kiwi.  Resist the impulse to make some fiery retort that my experience has zero to do with yours.

Okay. I'll calmly tell you that your experience has nothing to do with mine.

But if you'd like to know what my taste in music looks like: try this

Watch it in full screen. See if you can tell what colour the singers are.

---

Doo-wop, do-be-do-do-wop
Doo-wa-doo-day

--ELO, 1976

Edited February 17, 2018 by kiwi57

[kiwi57]

10 hours ago, Daniel2 said:

Hey, Erik and Kiwi,

Thanks for respecting the Mod's request to avoid personal insults and stay on topic going forward.

D

You're welcome Daniel. I shall continue to avoid personal insults, however egregious the provocation.

[kiwi57]

On 2/13/2018 at 5:23 PM, Daniel2 said:

Thanks for the explanation. 

In actuality, I hadn't even considered what you're suggesting above, nor was there absolutely any methodology in the questions based on anything near what you're suggesting here. 

 

I'm glad to hear that. So it was an unintentional push-poll then.

And the resemblance of question 3 to any bakers, living or dead, is completely coincidental and unintentional.

As I've said before: when a self-employed person chooses to sacrifice commercial opportunities (no scare quotes needed) involving customers with whom he has previously done business, and expressed a willingness to continue to do business, and only refuses to be involved with a particular type of event, then a fair-minded person might pause to consider whether there might be something more than mere personal animus involved.

Just a thought.

Edited February 17, 2018 by kiwi57