Russell C McGregor Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 Fortunately, that's not the way I used that phrase, and I hope you took some of the time I suggested to pause and familiarize yourself with the environment of this thread that shows the context here didn't mean what you thought it may have meant. Although I wouldn't say I'm "happy" that gays and lesbians should expect to face some discrimination, I am suggesting that I am open to the idea that LGBT individuals should expect some discrimination, specifically from family-owned-and-operated, Mom-and-Pop type businesses, and they should take their business elsewhere without legal punishments to such businesses. Is there anyone on your side of the aisle who understands that opting out of specific events is substantially different than discrimination against a particular group of people? Additionally, I think gays and lebians need to put down their weapons and expectations that it's an "all or nothing," "take no prisoners!" aproach, and that our lobby groups need to me more vocal about supporting a balanced and compassionate approach, as well. I am not alone in this position, as previous posts in this thread indicate. And others in the LGBT community are speaking up, as well. For example, another recently published piece from the nation's leading LGBT magazine, The Advocate, had this to say about the pizza parlor fiasco: So, yes, Russ... Hopefully you didn't skip the articles I posted, like this excerpt: ...And yes, Russ, I am suggesting there has to be a way to find a middle ground to preserve liberties and promote individual respect on all sides--even if it may mean allowing private individuals' businesses to discriminate against gays and lesbians. For a while. Isn't that what this means? "We need to give our opponents the time and space they need to let us win." So you're talking about "middle ground," but it only seems to be viable if it is seen as a way to get you what you want. So, in your view, when that time is over, and you have won, what religious freedoms do you anticipate that we will have left? Thanks, Russell
Daniel2 Posted April 14, 2015 Posted April 14, 2015 (edited) Is there anyone on your side of the aisle who understands that opting out of specific events is substantially different than discrimination against a particular group of people?I can't speak for others "on my side of the aisle."I'm not certain that it matters whether discrimination against "a particular group of people" is substantially different than discrimination against "a specific event."Whether or not that distinction is "substantially different" or not is not the reason I feel that it's appropriate to allow small businesses to discriminate.In fact, I don't believe there's any "substantial difference" between discrimination against gay people vs discrimination against a same-sex wedding, so that has nothing to do with my agreement with the concept that small businesses should be allowed to discriminate.The difference that I believe is significant enough that should allow small businesses to discriminate is based on small businesses being personally owned by individual or a family, and the understanding (and my agreement) that individuals' religious liberties should be protected. When I say "small business," I mean businesses that operate with 10 employees or less (which is the size of businesses affected by the Utah Compromise that the LDS church and the Utah LGBT community agreed with). For a while.Isn't that what this means?"We need to give our opponents the time and space they need to let us win."So you're talking about "middle ground," but it only seems to be viable if it is seen as a way to get you what you want.So, in your view, when that time is over, and you have won, what religious freedoms do you anticipate that we will have left?Thanks,RussellRuss, I look forward to the day when not every word I type is met with such pessimistic suspicion and we can have a civil conversation coupled with both of us giving each other the benefit of any doubt... but in the meantime, in the interests of continuing to work towards middle ground, I'll continue to put up with what I feel are disappointing and uncalled for inferences by you.To clarify:I have stated that I support small businesses' ability to discriminate against others.When Rauch says, "we need to give our opponents the time and space they need to let us win," your suggestion seems to be that he (and I, apparently) mean that we're only allowing discrimination until we lull everyone into some false sense of security, and then we'll pull the rug out from under you and once again yank away that ability to discriminate.If that isn't what you mean in typing the above, then I am definitely willing to give you the benefit of my doubt, apologize for misunderstanding you, and would ask you to clarify what it is you do mean.However, in the event that I have understood your inference correctly, allow me to correct what I believe would be a misperception...No, allowing small businesses is not a tactic which would only allow discrimination, to use your words, "for a while" until that "time is over" and "[we] get what we want."Henceforth and until the end of time, so long as America and her Constitution stand, I anticipate that individuals will always retain their religious liberties, which, in the context of this discussion, means I agree that privately-held small businesses (consisting of 10 people or less) should always be allowed to discriminate against whomever they want to, for whatever reason they ever want to, by allowing them to refuse to serve them.When Rauch refers to "the time and space they need to let us win," (italics added), I interpret that as the time and space in which social attitudes change and the vast majority of people no longer feel or see or believe in any need to discriminate. Rauch's statement exemplifies Dr. King's statement that "the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice." Even in allowing Mom and Pop stores to discriminate, the battle against the marriages of gay and lesbian couples is over, socially speaking. Time will pass.... attitudes will change... 95+% of heterosexual couples will continue to be straight, and 5-% of couples will continue to be gay, and marriage will continue to endure, and civil marriage will remain the best legal contract to strengthen the commitment of families, secure financial wellbeing for parents, and provide the best environment in which to raise children. Like the differences between interracial spouses, the differences between same-sex spouses will no longer be socially perceived by the majority as the harbingers of the Apocalypse... Life will go on, time will pass, and society will come to accept gay families as normal and as diverse and as worthy of social respect and inclusion as straight families. And those days gradually pass and lengthen into the mundane normalcy of familial life, the desire to discriminate against gay and lesbian families by most people will dissipate.... It will be at that time that we members of the LGBT community will look back and see that we "gave our opponents the time and space they needed to let us win." By then, our opponents will no longer will be enemies... we will have become friends, neighbors, siblings, members of the PTA, participants in shared community sports, churches, scout programs, etc.... And integration will have occurred. Not because of an evil or nefarious agenda to "steal your religious liberties," but because of a shared social evolution due to the knowledge that we are really not that different from you.It would not surprise me if you feel differently about the relatively benign scenario I just painted and view it through a much darker lens, as I realize you firmly reject same-sex relationships as immoral. And I'm OK that you and others will continue to believe that... and I remain committed to your right to live and to discriminate against me according to the religious testimony that burns in your heart. And even if you never do, someday, I hope you'll extend to me that same courtesy.Best,D Edited April 14, 2015 by Daniel2
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