Questions on the nature of spiritual experiences

[Mike]

bump

[wenglund]

wenglund:

I appreciate you saying so. But, my reason for stating the above was to grant that if you are unable, for whatever reason, to experience the spirit, you will have little or no cause to believe it is real, rather than just imagined. Nothing I or anyone else can say will change that. All that we can do is suggest possible ways for you gain that experience. Hopefully, what I and others have expressed here will be of some help in that regard.

More importantly, unless you see greater value to you in learning and experiencing spiritual things than not, it is highly unlike that you ever will experience those things.

I think I understand your point, however it would be unreasonable for me to trust that the LDS interpertation of these experiences is correct without good reason (whether directly from personal experience and/or other sources).

I am not sure I follow.

You ask we LDS for ways to differentiate the real from the imagined (as it relates to the spirit), and yet you think it unreasonable to trust what we tell you?

Did you not have "good reason" for asking us to begin with?

Does it make sense to your mind to request instructions from teachers you don't trust, and on a subject you disbelieve?

It certainly doesn't make sense to me.

In fact, it is rather frustrating to have put in so much time and thought, thinking your quiry was genuine, only to discover that you have no good reason to believe what I say.

What a pointless waste of time!

So far I haven't seen any evidence for a spiritual sense or spirtual reality (from my perspective of course). I am willing to try to see things from the perspective of a believer. I guess what I am trying to say is that while I see such things as a possible, I currently have no reason/cause/motivation to pursue the reality of this explanation indefinitely. I already have my own interpretation, i'm just exploring the possiblity of it being wrong. Hope that made sense.

Not really. If, as you said, you have had no reason/cause/motivation to pursue the reality of my explanations, then it was highly disingenuous of you to pose the question to begin with--particularly knowing full well that you wouldn't trust the answers. It is like asking a guide you don't trust, to take you on a trip you have no reason/cause/motivation to take, which is designed to go to a place you disbelieve even exists. That is a recipe for getting nowhere.

BTW from my perspective it is possible that we both have the experience(s) that a believer identifies as the spirit, but I identify as produced by my mind/brain. I can't tell without being able to identify what experience(s) is being refered to. I'm not trying to belittle anyone's beliefs, just giving my take on all this.

I can accept and respect that. But, rather than wasting people's time with disengenuous quiries, why not just go with what you believe? Take the intellectual trip you actually have an interest in pursuing, with people you trust, and to a destination you believe exist. See if in the end that journey yields as much as you had hoped, desired, and expected. See if it provides as much value in your life than the other paths before you.

At least that is what I have done.

I do wish you well, and hope that you are as blessed with the richess of enlightenment, joy, and understanding as I have had on the path I have chosen. Those who share my journey will know of the wonderous spiritual vistas and the sweetness and unspeakable magnificence of the fruit of the tree at the end of the path. Let's pray that you, too, are so lucky.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Mike]

Wade, i'm not sure what to say. I really am sorry that you feel your time was wasted. I also would like to apologize to anyone else who feels the same. It is not my intention to ask pointless questions or misrepresent myself. Sometimes I have trouble expressing myself correctly.

Let me try a one more time.

The post of mine you quoted was intended to explain that I am just trying to examine other points of view before I reach a firm conclusion about the reality of the spiritual (even though I already have a paradigm). If there is such a thing as a spiritual reality than I very much want to understand/experience it. It was also to explain that it is not that I don't see any value in learning about and experiencing the spirit. It's more that right now I don't see things in the same way a believer would.

Wade:

You ask we LDS for ways to differentiate the real from the imagined (as it relates to the spirit), and yet you think it unreasonable to trust what we tell you?

Yes, i'm skeptical but not to an extreme. I have taken a good amount of the advice of the good people on this board. Is that not trust?

Did you not have "good reason" for asking us to begin with?

I meant this in the context of a lifelong pursuit of the reality of the spiritual. I believe that such a thing is unlikely but not unrealisticly so. Do to my limited experience, there is a real possibility that I am wrong. If I am wrong I want to know. A good reason for asking/investigating (though not necessarily for believing) is that a large portion of the world does believe such experiences are from God. Another is that it is wise to examine the claims of an opposing view points rather then simply rejecting them.

Does it make sense to your mind to request instructions from teachers you don't trust, and on a subject you disbelieve?

I don't reject the things I currently disbelieve without even trying to understand the otherside(s) of the issue. Whether I initially "trust" the opinion/belief/interpertation of those whose opinion is different then mine is not as important as the conclusion reached, if I honestly follow where the evidences I am presented with lead me. There have been times in the past that after having investigated the evidence for the beliefs/opinions of others I realized I was wrong and they were right (or at least more correct).

In fact, it is rather frustrating to have put in so much time and thought, thinking your quiry was genuine, only to discover that you have no good reason to believe what I say.

Its not about whether I believe your interpertation or not. I am examining the possiblity that you and others who have been kind enough to help me are correct in your/their views. Its true that I currently do not have enough evdience/reason to believe, but neither am I yet completely convinced that my views are correct in this matter. If I was I would never have posted here. I don't like debating religious beliefs (I just want to know the truth).

Not really. If, as you said, you have had no reason/cause/motivation to pursue the reality of my explanations, then it was highly disingenuous of you to pose the question to begin with--particularly knowing full well that you wouldn't trust the answers. It is like asking a guide you don't trust, to take you on a trip you have no reason/cause/motivation to take, which is designed to go to a place you disbelieve even exists. That is a recipe for getting nowhere.

Mike:

I currently have no reason/cause/motivation to pursue the reality of this explanation indefinitely.

In short I have not yet reached a conclusion. I have somewhat strong beliefs but I have by no means closed my mind to other possiblities. I been investigating paradigms the directly contradict my own with every intention of changing my beliefs if I find am wrong. I dont know how to be any more genuine then that.

I hope that I have better communicated my postion. Maybe, this all still sounds like a ruse. If so: again I am honestly sorry if I have wasted yours or anyone elses time or efforts. I just want to say that I both enjoyed and have learned alot during our converstations Wade.

Mike

[Jon Haugo]

Mike,

Yeah, i've been back maybe a week or so. The holidays were great. How were yours?

Mine was okay. My wife was in Hong Kong but when she came back it was better.

How would one differentiate?

Where the s.e. leads. If it leads someone away from God and the truth then it came from an evil source (depending on if it was genuine or not)

Sincerely

Jon

[wenglund]

Wade, i'm not sure what to say. I really am sorry that you feel your time was wasted. I also would like to apologize to anyone else who feels the same. It is not my intention to ask pointless questions or misrepresent myself. Sometimes I have trouble expressing myself correctly.

Let me try a one more time.

The post of mine you quoted was intended to explain that I am just trying to examine other points of view before I reach a firm conclusion about the reality of the spiritual (even though I already have a paradigm). If there is such a thing as a spiritual reality than I very much want to understand/experience it. It was also to explain that it is not that I don't see any value in learning about and experiencing the spirit. It's more that right now I don't see things in the same way a believer would.

Hi Mike,

Perhaps I over reacted. If so, I apologize.

It's just that trust is such a fundamental component in all of this--and not just trusting those who are asked. The asker should be trusted as well. Accordingly, I will try and improve on trusting what you have to say, and as such I now unquestionably accept that your intents here are sincere, and that you ARE open to belief.

As I was contemplating last night how to bridge our two paradigms, I was reminded of what you had said in your previous post about the possibility that we may have experienced similar "spiritual" things, but have interpreted their source differently. I was inspired that therein lay the undergirding for the bridge.

It may interest you to know that there have been several times in my life where I have greatly desired something from God, and prayed to him for it, received what I believed was a sure answer (a spiritual confirmation) in the affirmative, only to find it not come to fruition.

This caused me to serious examine how that could happen. In short, I determined that since I had such a vivid imagination, the intensity of my desire for the thing caused me to subconsciously mimic the workings of the Spirit, and I had effectively answered my own prayers.

Some year ago I was also informed of a somewhat cruel experiment performed by an LDS psychology student (at the U of U, if I recall correctly) on an unwitting LDS singles audience. He carefully crafted his fireside speech to invoke as much emotion as possible, and during peek moments he would comment about the strength of the spirit being demonstrably felt by all. In the end, he disclosed that the whole exercise was a ruse, and that the audience had confused emotions with the spirit, and had probably done so all their lives.

This struck me as true in many, if not most cases--including with myself.

Oddly enough, I was able to come to those conclusions precisely because of my belief in the reality of spirits and the spirit world. In my next post I will explain why.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Hi Mike,

As stated in my previous post, there have been times in my life when what I had thought to be spiritual experiences, turned out to be figments of my imagination and/or conflation with emotions.

Let me see if I can adequately explain how I was able to come to this determination while also confirming my belief in a spiritual reality.

You know how each of us has likely had day dreams or night dreams which were so vivid that at least for a moment we thought they were real physical experiences? Or, as a child (or even as an adult) we have found ourselves alone in dark places, and our emotions began to run so high that we imagined, as real, all sorts of nefarious physical things in the creeks and groans and bumps in the night? Or, during a well acted/directed movie, we were drawn into it as though we were there, and emotions were invoked as though the things experienced had actually occurred in real life.

However, we eventually were able to sort them out and recognize that that they weren't real, but a product of our minds and hearts.

I would submit that we are able to do so only by: 1) granting that we have had real physical experiences; and 2) by comparing and contrasting aspects of the various physical experiences, and differentiating the real from the imagined.

Granted, we may have become so practiced at differentiating these things that the process seems almost subconscious and without much thought.

But, I believe there are several key factors which tip the perceptual balance one way or another (this is by no means an exhaustive list, but just a few things that spring to mind): They are: a) How influential one

[val]

Mike, I agree with weglund on the experiences of the spirit. I could tell you so many of them, but truly, they all differ in quality, purpose and intensity.

The everyday emotions I feel are not the same. I have a lot of stress and so I usually have to get the proverbial 2x4 by the spirit. Besides the fact that I too, at one time, did not know how to identify everyday spiritual experiences. I knew people that did, I just wasnt one of them.

But I do pray specifically on what I feel I need and want. I try not to be foolish in this. I want clear and definitive guidance. By the same token, I have to be willing to act on the answers given. That is my responsability.

That being said, What is it you are looking for. I feel like you are at the edge of the abyss and looking down, you want to know that there is a light from above to give illumination on the dark.

You are where you want to be, in a place of greater understanding, but you dont want to be alone. You know that you are aware of more than you asked for, but you dont know how to process it. I dont think your question is one of how to identify the spirit as opposed to how am I suppose to respond. I really think something has happened with you. You dont have to say, but I just wonder.

No more you's.

We sometimes fear the unknown, so we stay comfortably uncomfortable with it. We know it. We know the aloneness and we have a good fight against it, but we dont want to give the fight up.

Now, letting ourselves be subjected to the spirit is a surrendering of the emotions. I dont dictate how I want an experience. I just know when it is spiritual because it is not of origins from within my soul. My soul remembers it and I learn from it.

I have a plethera of varied experiences. I think Weglund said it right last.

I may cry at the sight of a mother holding her newborn baby, but its not spiritual in that I am having an experience. But I may grow spiritually from it and thus be more suseptible to it. But the emotion I have is from memories of when I had mine or just the joy I feel in the moment. But the spirit can be there for more than the declaration of a truth. We can be edified from it. I wonder if this is what you have experienced and am unfamiliar with. You are in an unfamiliar place. Have you prayed about anything lately? You dont have to answer, but contemplate the worst thing that could happen. Nothing. That has happened to me alot. "are you there, God, cuz I sure could use some hugs!" Nothing. But then, other things started to happen. I could go on and on and I think this benefits me more than anyone. But, in ancient texts of the apocrypha, there are substantial and clearly stated revelations that every single prayer is heard and documented. Every prayer. I try not to waste the space up there. LOL But I can most assuredly tell you that you are in a critical place and have to move forward. I do to. Sorry this got so winded. I, like I said, benefit the most from all of this.

Help thy brothers boat across and lo, thine own has reached the shore. chinese proverb

[Mike]

Wade,

I agree with much of what you wrote. I like the way you describe the difference between falling in a dream vs in reality. There are a few things I disagree with but I would like to hear your next post first. (Also, i'm trying to think of how to explain/put into words why I disagree on some issues ) I realize that this is an issue that is going to come down to personal experience. Still I appreciate those on this board who have taken the time to answer some of my questions.

Mike

[Mike]

Val,

I guess part of the reason I ask these questions is I am confused as to what experience(s) are being talked about when people refer to spiritual experiences.

val:

I just know when it is spiritual because it is not of origins from within my soul. My soul remembers it and I learn from it.

I like this idea.

What is it you are looking for

What is truely real and really true.

I dont think your question is one of how to identify the spirit as opposed to how am I suppose to respond.

If when the spirit is experienced it is not self explanatory concerning its purpose; then I guess I would want to know both of the above.

I really think something has happened with you.

Do you mean I have had a spiritual experience(s)? Possibly.

Have you prayed about anything lately?

Yeah

Sorry this got so winded.

I ask important questions. I get thoughtful answers. Nothing to apologize for. Thanks Val, I like reading your posts.

Mike

[val]

Mike, thanks for your words. I find that in this forum I am talking to some pretty intelligent people and I am forced to articulate and focus on what I am saying. It is good for me. Last night,I started to share a couple of experiences and I had the feeling not to. I wrote several posts and deleted them because they felt wrong. So I decided to stop and think about the things you had said in all your posts. I started to get a feeling as to what is going on. As I followed the thoughts that felt right, I found myself thinking more about you and less about what I wanted to say. I started to get the feeling that you have been moved by the spirit and sense it but dont quite know where to go from there.

Our soul is comprised of both body and spirit. Our spirit cannot be affected by the Holy Ghost without us feeling something physical. That is why it is so important that we do what we need to here in the physical being. We grow from it.

On several occasions, I have been physically stopped from doing something and it was the right thing. There was no "spiritual" quality to the thing. Sometimes we are protected, guided, taught or whatever and it is not a Holy Ghost thing as much as perhaps our guardian angels who have charge over us. I was once driving to Cal. and was side by side for miles with this one car. At one point, I had the thought to pull over and get gas. Without looking at the gas gauge I did it. I pulled into an old abandoned gas station. I looked at the gas gauge and it was 3/4 full. I felt stupid. I pulled out on to the interstate and a few miles up the road, the cars I had been neck to neck with had been in a severe car wreck with two semis. The one I was next to was crushed and pinned between the two semis. There was no spiritual quality. Simply a command. I listened and was spared. Sometimes that is what they are.

On another occasion, I was in bed hurt from a dive I took playing a game. I was in bed (this was this last year) one afternoon and felt something brush over my unhurt ankle. I looked at the curtains and there was no movement from wind. I didnt know why I felt this. I didnt feel anything strong spiritually, but I felt something physical. I had to ask, no matter how stupid I felt, that if someone was in the room with me to touch me again. Suddenly, I felt this warm hand rest on my ankle and a flood of warmth, electiricity and at the same time complete peace. I teared up with the "spirit". It was the flow of energy, warmth and peace that does not usually have a place in me. That was spiritual. It was not from within. Had I not asked them to touch me again I wouldnt remember that day.

I have come to know that we are to go to God or at least sometimes ask for more to know if it is more.

this next experience is in contrast to the others. The reason I am sharing them is to show you that they all differ.

About 20 yrs ago, at christmas time, I was in the front room watching Mormon Tab choir. I was so enjoying the concert. I have watched many different choirs at the holiday season, but this particular night, I felt a deeper sense of peace. I had, two years before been excommunicated and thought myself a hopeless cause for God. But that night I felt moved by the music. I had a strong urge to go and pray. I didnt do it often, so its not something I am easily compelled to do. I sat on my bed and started to pray. I felt compelled to get on my knees. Ugh! I hate getting on my knees, but I did. As I started to pray, I started in with the usuals, but stopped. I just stopped and started thinking about what I should be saying. I started to express my gratitude to God for many things. One thought led to another and so one word led to another. I prayed as I felt compelled to pray. It seemed that I was being led into the prayer. I followed the thoughts with hope first and then faith. I dont know how long it took, but I began to comprehend my sense of gratitude for the atonement in such depth that was unfamiliar with me. I couldnt get past the gratitude and what the atonement meant for me. I saw, in a sense, not like a vision, but I sensed an image of the saviour on the right hand of the throne of God. I was so overwhelmed with the gratitude, the meaning it held for me and me alone, and the love of the Saviour and God. I was crying in joy and as I felt consumed by the experience, I felt the outpouring of the spirit and it cascaded down me from head to toe. I felt this intense warm, peaceful and energetic flow of the spirit. It kept flowing and flowing like the cascading flow of electricity that had only warmth and complete peace. I was completely forgiven of all my sins at that moment and I knew it. I ended my prayer completely exhausted and illuminated at the same time. I will never forget that day. That was a spiritual epiphany for me. I understood many of the saviours teachings. I have only had one other experience that could come close to that one. Most of the time, they are thoughts that come with a sense of peace and sureness. If I refrain from doubting, I am guided. They are always for a purpose and usually we wont know unless we ask. I dont have to ask all the time because my ability to identify and communicate has evolved. But when I think something has happened spiritually but want to know for sure or want to know why, I pray for that information. I usually just get the answer as a thought that feels true.

I dont know if this helps, but I would like to know what you have really been going through. If you want to post that is good because others benefit like I do from them. But if you dont want to, you are welcome to email me. Look forward to hearing from you.Val

[quixchasmox]

That moved me, val. Thanks for sharing.

[wenglund]

Hi Mike,

As promised, here is an instnce which, comparatively speaking, reinforced to my mind that certain spiritual experiences may have external origins and go beyond mental constructs.

To preface this recollection, it is important to note that throughout my life I have had several significant learning disabilities (dyslexia, auditory and cognitive processing issues, and short and long term memory issues) which have, in one respect, made it possible for me to easily ingest and comprehend large and complex notions, while in another respect, made it extremely difficult to recall small and simple notions or to formulate them into intelligible communications. (In short, my mind works best with visual images, and has trouble with verbal or written expressions

[val]

Weglund,

I read your post just a moment ago and I happen to think of Moses. He complained of his inability to carry out the commands of God, yet God assured him as he did so many others, that the ability would be there when needed. It was the spirit and you were capable of conveying the message.

A few weeks ago, I asked the missionaries here if they ever give blessings to individuals. Neither of them had any mission experience and werent really comfortable. I dont know why I asked but I felt a need to tell them to go with Matt and learn to know how to identify the spirit. The one elder said he was afraid that if he gave a blessing he might say something that wasnt from the Lord, but from him and he wouldnt know the difference. I told him that it was necessary for him to learn to know the difference and the only way to do it was to practice at it. I told him that he had an opportunity to go with someone here who is extremely experienced with the spirit so that he could sense the difference while listening. I dont know if they will take it serious, but I felt like they would never be able to step out of the normal routine of conversation if they didnt have confidence in the spirit and how it works with them.

Apparantly you learned to do it and I dont know of anyone who experienced what you did that didnt leave a lasting impact on that someone.

[Mike]

Wade,

This is very helpful. I think I am starting to understand this issue in greater depth. If there is a spiritual reality then I lack experience, understanding or both. I have to admit that if there is I would (perhaps will) honestly be surprised. While I still have disagreements I don't think they would be constructive towards the purpose of my questions. It seems that most of my questions have been answered more or less. hmmmm.

Thanks Wade

Mike

[Mike]

Val,

Thanks for the great reply.

val:

I would like to know what you have really been going through

Here's a brief summary:

I was "born" and raised LDS.

As I grew up I was never really sure what to believe about religion and God. When I was young I didn't really have reasons to doubt but at the same time I really didn't have any reason to believe either. (though, I was taught that the LDS faith was true). I have actively participate in the lds church for much of my life. (seminary, priesthood callings, church callings, sunday school, etc) I have read the BOM, much of the Bible, as well as other faith promoting books. Throught my life I have made efforts (many small some large) to know/learn whether or not the LDS faith/a personal God exists is correct/true. I am trying to make one last effort, where whatever my conclusion I can know that I have tried my best to learn the truth. As far as I can tell I have never believed in God nor have I ever had or born/given a testimony of the truth of LDS church. Have I had spiritual experiences? Maybe, but nothing yet that I am confident/understand to be from God.

That reminds me, there was once a certain kind of feeling that I sometimes had when I prayed. Sometimes I use to wonder if maybe that was from God. It turned out that it was something like what Wade discribed earlier, I found that I naturally had it outside of prayer and that I could both induce control the feeling at my digression.

Everything I have learned/experinenced in my life has/continues to help form and seemingly confirm my paradigm (a kind of naturalistic/ordered universe where God(s) and the supernatural are superfluous.) Unfortuantly, I also happen to have a stong sense of curiosity; which leads to questions like, why, how, what if ...

Mike

[Dear Mee]

MIKE, reading your above, i suggest you are not alone, but express a state of being common with many LDS, (and nonLDS). i have often wondered how many of those born into Mormonism would have embraced it otherwise? I doubt they would have the same reason for joining as did their ancestors/parents? Possibly, being whole, "... they (might) need not a physician..."?

However, could a sense of loyalty keep them involved, having found comfort, if not conviction, in their inherited 'faith'? Quite probably i think, apart from eclesiastics there is, in many(most?) wards and branches some pretty good social stuff. Which i suggest is more the reason for most conversions--those wonderful Missionaries. The question can well be asked, "without 60,000 +/- active Missionaries, how many "investigators" would there be?"

Mike, You have bypassed the physical aspects of "Membership" but non-the-less are confronted with the more important quest, IMHO, of establishing a personal relationship with YOURSELF. Few religions, including Mormonism, well address that pursuit. Religion tends to substitute theology, and its profusion of confusion, for the simple message of Christ--and other sages--that God's spirit is within the individual to enlighten them.

However, environmental/genetic/nurturing luck tremendously impacts upon each entrant into humanity. For better or worse? Which i think blends with the "naturalistic/ordered universe" you express.

Your statement:

"Everything I have learned/experinenced in my life has/continues to help form and seemingly confirm my paradigm (a kind of naturalistic/ordered universe where God(s) and the supernatural are superfluous.) Unfortuantly, I also happen to have a stong sense of curiosity; which leads to questions like, why, how, what if ..."

I suggest, rather than your word, "superfluous" would you substitue 'inherent'? As other senses are inherent, taken forgranted and may, or not, be tuned to excellence, so the Spirit within may be stunted or stimulated as any other human component. Through the ages, into the present, there has been, and is, a dependence upon "authorized" administers to prescribe remedials. In fact one is self-sufficient in spirit capability as in physical capability--we breath, see and hear all on our own!

My experience, and study, lead me to this conclusion. I find even in the DC there is very ample evidence--if one sees a broader, rather than the narrow and traditional, interpretation of, especially 121: 25-46.

"What-if," for instance, (in verse 36, where reference is made to, "rights and powers being attached to the priesthood") a person was born with those "rights and powers" inheritently? And expected, as a conscienced human, to apply those qualities to the betterment of the species? Would that contravene the will of God to see his creations at peace???

[Mighty Curelom]

Mike

You're one of us.

Let me explain. "Spirituality" is a personality trait, just like intelligence, sexual orientation, shyness, or any other personality trait. Some people have a high "spirituality" IQ, and these people find religion easy to accept. Others, who are not as predisposed to "spiritual" experiences, have a harder time accepting what religion has to say. As emotional creatures, humans tend to give more credit to feelings and emotions than objective facts. Supernaturalists insist that reality is more than just what we see, hear, taste, etc. because they have a strong emotional component that tells them so.

It's also interesting to note that studies have shown spiritual experiences to have a high correlation with a personality type known as "fantasy-prone". People with very active imaginations seem to also have very rich spiritual lives.

In the end, Mike, maybe you just don't have the capacity to suspend your rational mind as religion requires. Maybe you don't have a high "spirituality" IQ. Maybe you just don't have the personality type required for a religion, especially one as fundamentalist and obscure as the Mormon religion. Apparently religion hasn't clicked with you in the past; why try to force yourself into it?

[wenglund]

Mike

You're one of us.

Let me explain. "Spirituality" is a personality trait, just like intelligence, sexual orientation, shyness, or any other personality trait. Some people have a high "spirituality" IQ, and these people find religion easy to accept. Others, who are not as predisposed to "spiritual" experiences, have a harder time accepting what religion has to say. As emotional creatures, humans tend to give more credit to feelings and emotions than objective facts. Supernaturalists insist that reality is more than just what we see, hear, taste, etc. because they have a strong emotional component that tells them so.

It's also interesting to note that studies have shown spiritual experiences to have a high correlation with a personality type known as "fantasy-prone". People with very active imaginations seem to also have very rich spiritual lives.

In the end, Mike, maybe you just don't have the capacity to suspend your rational mind as religion requires. Maybe you don't have a high "spirituality" IQ. Maybe you just don't have the personality type required for a religion, especially one as fundamentalist and obscure as the Mormon religion. Apparently religion hasn't clicked with you in the past; why try to force yourself into it?

This is like the drunken blind man yelling: "All the world is darkness...and anyone who thinks there is light, is simply "fantasy-prone."

Sadly, such asinine proclamations merely expose the overly narrow mindedness and limited intellectual/sensory capacity of the naysayers. It is the sound of bigotry born of heightened levels of insecurity, mocking most what they least understand.

Such is to be pittied.

And, it is instructive, too, what a contrast MC's inane and irreverent proclamations are to the otherwise mutually enlightening and respectful discourse of this thread.

Even more instructive is, when in the course of such repelling behavior (at least to those in their right minds), the MC's of the world think to include the gracious and thoughtful Mike's as one of them, and invite the Mike's to fully embrace their way of looking at things--as though the rational and socially adept would willfully abandon the high road for the gutter of the banal and dysfunctional.

What a specticle.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[wenglund]

Wade,

This is very helpful. I think I am starting to understand this issue in greater depth. If there is a spiritual reality then I lack experience, understanding or both. I have to admit that if there is I would (perhaps will) honestly be surprised. While I still have disagreements I don't think they would be constructive towards the purpose of my questions. It seems that most of my questions have been answered more or less. hmmmm.

Thanks Wade

Mike

Hi Mike,

The gratitude is mutual, and I want you to know that I benefited greatly from the exchange.

And, I entered the discussion fully expecting that we would not come to complete agreement (my intent here wasn't to convert, but rather to provide a reasonable alternative that makes room for faith), though I am pleased that your questions have been answered to your satisfaction. Feel free to pose others in the future if the desire ever arises.

As indicated previously, I do wish you well in your life's journey, and I hold out great hope for that "suprise"--though I will continue to respect your views and your approach whatever the case may be. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[val]

MIKE, reading your above, i suggest you are not alone, but express a state of being common with many LDS, (and nonLDS). i have often wondered how many of those born into Mormonism would have embraced it otherwise? I doubt they would have the same reason for joining as did their ancestors/parents? Possibly, being whole, "... they (might) need not a physician..."?

However, could a sense of loyalty keep them involved, having found comfort, if not conviction, in their inherited 'faith'? Quite probably i think, apart from eclesiastics there is, in many(most?) wards and branches some pretty good social stuff. Which i suggest is more the reason for most conversions--those wonderful Missionaries. The question can well be asked, "without 60,000 +/- active Missionaries, how many "investigators" would there be?"

Mike, You have bypassed the physical aspects of "Membership" but non-the-less are confronted with the more important quest, IMHO, of establishing a personal relationship with YOURSELF. Few religions, including Mormonism, well address that pursuit. Religion tends to substitute theology, and its profusion of confusion, for the simple message of Christ--and other sages--that God's spirit is within the individual to enlighten them.

However, environmental/genetic/nurturing luck tremendously impacts upon each entrant into humanity. For better or worse? Which i think blends with the "naturalistic/ordered universe" you express.

Your statement:

"Everything I have learned/experinenced in my life has/continues to help form and seemingly confirm my paradigm (a kind of naturalistic/ordered universe where God(s) and the supernatural are superfluous.) Unfortuantly, I also happen to have a stong sense of curiosity; which leads to questions like, why, how, what if ..."

I suggest, rather than your word, "superfluous" would you substitue 'inherent'? As other senses are inherent, taken forgranted and may, or not, be tuned to excellence, so the Spirit within may be stunted or stimulated as any other human component. Through the ages, into the present, there has been, and is, a dependence upon "authorized" administers to prescribe remedials. In fact one is self-sufficient in spirit capability as in physical capability--we breath, see and hear all on our own!

My experience, and study, lead me to this conclusion. I find even in the DC there is very ample evidence--if one sees a broader, rather than the narrow and traditional, interpretation of, especially 121: 25-46.

"What-if," for instance, (in verse 36, where reference is made to, "rights and powers being attached to the priesthood") a person was born with those "rights and powers" inheritently? And expected, as a conscienced human, to apply those qualities to the betterment of the species? Would that contravene the will of God to see his creations at peace???

This is for deer mee!

Boy are you an arrogant self contained being. How dare you say mormons are needy and find comfort in the social climate of the church. How dare you say that they are there simply because they are comfortable with it or, oh yea, they inherited it. Geez, remember the city of enoch. They were taught from generation to generetion and kept righteous because they did not engage in the system of living that the rest of the world, small as it was,engaged in. They isolated themselves. Those who wished to sin had to leave. I think if I were to emulate a way of living or thinking, that would be it. But you would find something wrong with them, right?

Apparantly you are not familiar with the mormon way of life. There is nothing comfortable about it. It is tough because they work at living honestly and righeously. Their expectations of themselves and their children go above that of the general public. How is that comfortable? I was raised mormon and there wasnt anything easy about it. But at a young age, I was taught the value of the truth and that we should always be in the pursuit of it. If is was fraudulant wouldnt they do as the other religions do and say, there is no Holy Ghost and no spiritual affirmation of things. You just simply have to take our word for things because we went to school and got a degree. Pleeeeeese.

As an adult I was excommunicated. It would have been an easy thing to wash all the doctrine out of my hair and start over on my terms. I tried. I said I wanted nothing to do with it or any religion. One day I stopped at my parents house. They werent home. The missionaries drove up and boy, did I try to get to my car with out contact. I didnt make it. I had never met them. At one point one of them asked me if I was coming back into the church. I knew my mom must have said something about me to them. As I started to say most emphatically and defiantly NO! The Holy Ghost confirmed to me that I was to come back. I stood there stunned. My tongue was stuck at the N and I said, "I guess I am!" I would never have gotten to that thought on my own and certainly I wasnt brushed by a cool breeze that I just so happened to pretend was the spirit so that I could start a long hard and soul searching journey back into the church.

Mormons are not held back by the confines of self containment. They are not afraid to think outside the box. They dont put God into a pretty little box with bows on it and say all is well, we understand what we need to. Mormons want to understand the truth. The truth is bigger than the box of goodies you tote.

I was in the catholic site a week ago. It is much like this one except that no one was in there talking about anything. Again, that pretty little box.

As far as mike goes, i get the feeling he is very much aware of who he is and is smart enough to know what to keep to himself and what to share. I get the feeling he has spiritual qualities that he is just now discovering and this is the start of his journey. He is a pretty smart one and dont reduce him or anyother LDS based on your biases.

I am a very honest person, not righteous, but honest. I think I am pretty fearless about things and have a lot of insight, both of myself and of others.

You seem to be the kind of person that finds fault with a lot of people and things, and my guess is you fear that there is no God and therefore refuse to find out for yourself.

You are saying that by not having anything to do with religion, one would have a greater understanding of themselves and God? What kind of crap is that. The 70's are over. What is the purpose for the prophets or the bible if all we ever needed was ourselves. And honestly, think about it. If all we have to do to become enlightened is to follow the spirit within, we would all have to be at the same place at the same time spiritually in order to feel connected to one another and God. Yea, thats gonna happen. I think you are out there.

[Dear Mee]

VAL, thank-you for your response. I'm most pleased you're happy where you are, and i hope you aren't too uncomfortable . You conclusion-jump. I have been, and am, LDS for over 50 years. Served in most positions short of Stake Pres. and found them to be some of my most comfortable years. I'm not sure how they could have been otherwise??

Probably that is where we differ: i was a convert choosing a place of safety and security (spiritually) to raise my/our family, and so it was. However, it appears that you were born into the LDS community, and, unfortunately for whatever reasons were not comfortable left and were excommunicated.

Some would think thereby you would have lost the Spirit (i don't happen to be one of those, having experienced too many Spirit motivated people of all faiths in a rather varied and long life). But, as you state, when meeting the Missionaries, the Spirit brought you home--so to speak. I couldn't be happier for you.

Your experience seems to substanciate that our born-with-Spirit-of-enlightenment is a constant; its condition is a variable as it was/is acted upon by nature and nurture making us what/who we are. Availing ourselves of the good-stuff around us, choosing wisely we might, with luck, find the happiness and joy God intended for all of His children. Which puts responsibility on us to act upon both nature and nurture to bring such joy, and comfort, into the lives of those we contact. Possibly that is the discomforting you referred to: avoiding responsibility to live Christ-like? Now that i acknowledge is somewhat of a challenge--at least to this old-guy. I wish You well!

[Mighty Curelom]

All I'm saying is you don't have to force yourself to believe in something that's false just because you feel some social obligation. Just because you were born into the LDS church doesn't mean you have to remain LDS. If you are getting along fine without weekly indoctrination session, endless meetings, church busy-work, and home-teaching assignments, why subject yourself to all that nonsense? Religion exists for those who need it; if you don't need a crutch, why walk with one? I'm sure God will understand.

After all, what kind of supreme being requires membership in a club for admittance into heaven? If a god is more concerned with which church you belong to than living a decent, honest life, do you really want to worship that god?

[wenglund]

All I'm saying is you don't have to force yourself to believe in something that's false just because you feel some social obligation. Just because you were born into the LDS church doesn't mean you have to remain LDS. If you are getting along fine without weekly indoctrination session, endless meetings, church busy-work, and home-teaching assignments, why subject yourself to all that nonsense? Religion exists for those who need it; if you don't need a crutch, why walk with one? I'm sure God will understand.

After all, what kind of supreme being requires membership in a club for admittance into heaven? If a god is more concerned with which church you belong to than living a decent, honest life, do you really want to worship that god?

...and all I am saying is that you are again simply projecting your narrow and negative mindedness (i.e. bigotry) into an otherwise open-minded and positive (mutually respectful) discussion. The constrast you provide is enlightening, but not worth the deficit in edification.

(By the way, the only one to raise the paranoid spector of "force" and "social obligation" is you. The only one to unwittingly let slip their borderline personality trait by making such highly uncharitable and negative characterizations as "indoctrination session, endless meetings, church busy-work, and...nonsense....crutch," is you. So, get a clue.)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Mike]

Mighty Curelom,

I understand what you're saying. I don't plan to force my self into believing this or any other religion. Really all I am doing is asking God if it exists, what it is, and what it wants if anything it wants from me. I'm only trying to give this issue my best shot. If I don't get an answer after I feel I really tried; then I move on with the believe that God does not in fact exist and vise virsa.

Mike

[Mike]

Everybody,

I would like to thank everyone who as given advice or helped answer some of my questions. I really appreciate it. It is so nice having a place like this to ask questions and "listen" to other perspecives. I doubt I will be posting for a while. (this mesage board is really addictive) I would like to especially thank you Wade; whatever the outcome these conversations really have been helpful/enlightening. Thanks again to Jon, Val, and everyone else.

Mike