Moral Issues And The Secular Church Argument

[Stone holm]

What do you mean by "believe in", as it relates to anyone who "believes in" a secular government?

I believe people in governing positions of any society are an assembly of people who have been called together to act in behalf of the people they govern, based on what they believe is good for their society, but I wouldn't say I believe in them, at least not in the same sense that I believe in Jesus Christ. I do believe secular governments exist, if by a secular government you're referring to an assembly of people who as a collective body don't endorse a particular religion, but as individuals they do endorse their own personal religion.

The word religion, at its core, refers simply to a way of life, and everyone has a way of life, thus everyone has a religion.

That is a bunch of BS.

Everyone does have a way of life and unless that way of life is objectively harmful to someone else's, it should not be interfered with.

[thesometimesaint]

That is the mantra of secularists. If your point is that secularism is winning, I believe the apostles have indicated as much in their speeches.

I'm no secularist. I don't believe the secularists are winning either. There is always a bit of dynamic tension between the two. Both have their proper place and function in a free society. I can't use my freedom of religion to hit you in the nose.

[Stone holm]

What do you mean by "believe in", as it relates to anyone who "believes in" a secular government?

I believe people in governing positions of any society are an assembly of people who have been called together to act in behalf of the people they govern, based on what they believe is good for their society, but I wouldn't say I believe in them, at least not in the same sense that I believe in Jesus Christ. I do believe secular governments exist, if by a secular government you're referring to an assembly of people who as a collective body don't endorse a particular religion, but as individuals they do endorse their own personal religion.

The word religion, at its core, refers simply to a way of life, and everyone has a way of life, thus everyone has a religion.

That is a bunch of BS.

I am not sure I understand this. When I said I believe in a secular government, I meant that I did not believe in religious authority being used to run the government. I also believe that to be consistent with religious believers such as myself believing in religious doctrine which controls their personal lifestyle. I do not believe in the existence of some grand conspiracy of a secular church, and while a "church" can mean many things I fail to see it being used in your sense by Elder Maxwell.

[CASteinman]

I can't use my freedom of religion to hit you in the nose.

Irrelevant to the topic of Secularism. But relevant to conversations about the Rights of Man and Social Responsibility and even the Rule of Law.

Edited April 23, 2013 by CASteinman

[Stone holm]

Irrelevant to the topic of Secularism. But relevant to conversations about the Rights of Man and Social Responsibility and even the Rule of Law.

Having thought about the way you have been using secularism, have decided you are partly right it is in fact a religious doctrine and a tenet of Mormonism since secular government is the only form of government that protects the moral agency of man it is therefore a Divinely inspired form of government and since no other protects the moral agency of man, they must be Satanic. Therefore those who wish to displace secular government must be deriving their inspiration from he who would dethrone the moral agency of man and who has been trying to do that from the beginning.

[thesometimesaint]

The definition of secularism is a principle that involves two basic propositions. The first is the strict separation of the state from religious institutions. The second is that people of different religions and beliefs are equal before the law.

[Stone holm]

The definition of secularism is a principle that involves two basic propositions. The first is the strict separation of the state from religious institutions. The second is that people of different religions and beliefs are equal before the law.

Agreed.

[CASteinman]

since secular government is the only form of government that protects the moral agency of man it is therefore a Divinely inspired form of government and since no other protects the moral agency of man, they must be Satanic.

Start with a false assumption and proceed to bad conclusion. It is not the only form of government that does this. Obviously. Otherwise God would not set up His Kingdom -- governed under other principles.

It is not secularism that protects rights.

Edited April 23, 2013 by CASteinman

[Stone holm]

Start with a false assumption and proceed to bad conclusion. It is not the only form of government that does this. Obviously. Otherwise God would not set up His Kingdom -- governed under other principles.

It is not secularism that protects rights.

Have to disagree. In a world where actual knowledge of the Divine is withheld so that we see as through a glass darkly, secular governments are the ones which are Divinely inspired because they are the ones that protect the right to believe as you will. Theocracies do not protect that right. Christ said His Kingdom was not of this world, and though they did it with the collusion of their Roman overlords, it was a corrupt theocratic government system which condemned Christ to death.

[CASteinman]

Have to disagree. In a world where actual knowledge of the Divine is withheld so that we see as through a glass darkly, secular governments are the ones which are Divinely inspired because they are the ones that protect the right to believe as you will. Theocracies do not protect that right. Christ said His Kingdom was not of this world, and though they did it with the collusion of their Roman overlords, it was a corrupt theocratic government system which condemned Christ to death.

You are not making a very good case. Teachings of the apostles do not agree with you.