New Video On Priesthood Restoration

[cdowis]

I get tired of repeating myself to people who don't listen.

I am speechless and dumbfounded by your response. Time for us both to go to permanent ignore. We are completely unable to have a conversation.

Best of luck.

[volgadon]

I am speechless and dumbfounded by your response. Time for us both to go to permanent ignore. We are completely unable to have a conversation.

Best of luck.

Dan has a point.

[cdowis]

I have no interest explaining it to you. Dan knows the truth of the matter.

Edited February 2, 2013 by cdowis

[Jude2]

I post this with the greatest of intimation because I know there are some here with much greater knowledge of the scriptures and of the history of the Church than I, but here it goes.

As a devout Mormon I understand and accept the notion that we learn line upon line and God doesn’t just pour knowledge upon us. I can understand if it took time for Joseph to know the ends and outs of how the priesthood should be organized. The fact that he did so so perfectly is a miracle in and of itself.

But;

I’ve been thinkin about this video; doing some rereading and some pondering. I’ve been comparing D&C 20 (and The Book of Commandments sec 24) written in 1830 to Joseph Smith’s history starting with verse 66.

I’m going to purpose that Vogel’s conclusions about sec 20 are all wrong and quite the opposite is true. Instead of sec 20 not mentioning the priesthood restoration with John the Baptist, Peter, James and John I think it is exactly what Joseph is talking about.

If Joseph and Oliver were under the same orders as Peter, James and John not to talk about their experience and Joseph did write;

“In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owing to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the neighborhood”

could this April 1830 revelation be a veiled reference to the priesthood restoration?

I asked myself several questions;

1, Vogel insist that the phrase “the ministering of angels” in ves 10 of sec 20 is a generic term for any angel’s visit but what if it is not and alludes to the visit by John the Baptist, and then Peter, James and John.

I crossed reverenced the term and can’t really find a time where it is used for just one angel but found this;

D&C 107

20 The power and authority of the lesser, or Aaronic Priesthood, is to hold the keys of the ministering of angels….

2, Instead, what if the phrase “….whose countenance was as lightning, and whose garments were pure and white above all other whiteness…” is generic for how all angels are described and not just the Angel Moroni? Throughout the Book of Mormon and the D&C the words garments, pure, white and whiteness are used a number of times together;

“…. and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof…” 3 Nephi 19:25

Oliver described John the Baptist visit like this;

“On a sudden, as from the midst of eternity, the voice of the Redeemer spake peace to us, while the veil was parted and the angel of God came down clothed with glory… our eyes beheld, our ears heard, as in the ‘blaze of day’; yes, more—above the glitter of the May sunbeam, which then shed its brilliancy over the face of nature!”

He’s much more poetic than Joseph.

3, Then I asked what is the time period for verses 5 &6?

“After it was truly manifested unto this first elder that he had received a remission of his sins, he was entangled again in the vanities of the world But after repenting, and humbling himself sincerely, through faith,….”

So does the ‘entangled again’ mean the time period between his first vision and the angel Moroni where he acknowledges he was led into youthful

“…divers temptations, offensive in the sight of God”

Or could it be after he had his vision of Moroni and when he

"….transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men" D&C 3

“the vanities of the world” leads me to believe it was referring to “the persuasions of men” so the latter. In that case the angel sent could only mean John the Baptist.

4, Then I asked what is the 20th section really about?

“The rise of the Church of Christ in these last days …by the will and commandments of God. Which commandments were given to Joseph Smith, Jun., who was called of God, and ordained an apostle of Jesus Christ, to be the first elder of this church”

So it is establishing the fact that Joseph had not only the commandment to but the authority to organize the Church. In his history he says John told him he would be ordained by Peter, James and John to be first elder but it never says when it occurred.

In the Book of Commandments the phrase “the first elder” is not there, but wasn’t he the first ordained elder? I don’t get the objection here.

Although sec 20 does not mention the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthood Joseph does separate the two, he gives the Elders all of the same authority the lesser priesthood has and adds “And to confirm the church by the laying on of the hands, and the giving of the Holy Ghost, and to take the lead of all meetings.” (Book of Commandments Sec 24) So he does understand the higher and lower authorities.

5, Going back to verse 6

“But after repenting, and humbling himself sincerely, through faith, God ministered unto him by an holy angel …And gave unto him commandments which inspired him; And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon”

I believe it’s always been assumed this meant only the Urim and Thummim” but what if he meant John the Baptist and the power of the Aaronic Priesthood and the Holy Ghost as it fell upon them like it did to Cornelius.

Look at what Joseph writes in his history after this visitation;

“73 No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied …..And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy…..

Does the phrase in vs. 6 “which inspired him” referred this ability to prophesy?

6, At the end of vers 73 he adds another statement;

"We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation".

Does this “filled with the Holy Ghost” refer (ever so slightly I admit) to “the power from on high” and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost which only the Higher Melchizedek could give?

He goes on in his history;

74 Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of.”

It seems to me he is talking about the Holy Ghost.

Is there anyway to know for sure just at what point in the Book of Mormon Oliver took over as scribe. He started writing on April 7, in May they were baptized and they were done with the Book of Mormon sometime in June, seems like they must have been moving along at quite a clip.

7, Now let’s look at verses 8-10 again

8 And gave him power from on high (the Holy Ghost), by the means (of the Urim and Thummim) which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;

9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;

10 Which was given by inspiration (of the Holy Ghost), and is confirmed to others by the ministering of angels (Moroni, John the Baptist, Peter, James and John) and is declared unto the world by them.

I might be stretching it a bit but it does seem as early as 1830 Joseph is talking about the restoration of the Priesthood without talking about it.

[Dan Vogel]

Thanks for your comments. I appreciate seeing you are attempting to understand the sources. That’s good. But, if I may, you are trying to read later concepts into earlier documents. You should read them like you don’t know what’s ahead—just like Joseph Smith and other early members who first head them and composed them.

[Jude2]

Dan Vogel “…..you are trying to read later concepts into earlier documents.”

No I think not, I’m looking at it as Joseph explaining things after the fact because at the time he was under commandment not to.

Look at sec 23 of the Book of Commandments

A Commandment unto the church of Christ, which was established in these last days, ….. in consequence of some desiring to unite with the church without re- baptism, who had previously been baptized.

23:1 Behold I say unto you, that all old covenants have I caused to be done away in this thing, and this is a new and everlasting covenant; even that which was from the beginning.

23:2 Wherefore although a man should be baptized an hundred times, it availeth him nothing;

23:3 For you cannot enter in at the straight gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works;

23:4 For it is because of your dead works, that I have caused this last covenant, and this church to be built up unto me; even as in days of old.

23:5 Wherefore enter ye in at the gate, as I have commanded, and seek not to counsel your God.--Amen.

So in 1830 he’s claiming an authority, power or right which other ministers do not have and adding in the new and everlasting covenant. Why? Because he had received that authority from John the Baptist.

And in sec 22 of the Book of Commandments there is also a reference to it;

He writes;

22:1 Behold there shall be a record kept among you, and in it thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ;

22:2 Being inspired of the Holy Ghost to lay the foundation thereof, and to build it up unto the most holy faith;

Five years later he clarifies exactly what he was referring to in his history;

73.………..And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.

I think in 1830 he was through the Spirit talking around his experiences with “the ministering of angels” and it’s not until 1835 that he feels secure enough to almost fully reveal the extent of it. Remember Peter James and John never told the whole truth of what happened on the mount of transfiguration either.

[Dan Vogel]

Jude2,

No I think not, I’m looking at it as Joseph explaining things after the fact because at the time he was under commandment not to.

JS never made this claim, of course. You imagine this, but how do you explain his later breaking this imagined command?

So in 1830 he’s claiming an authority, power or right which other ministers do not have and adding in the new and everlasting covenant. Why? Because he had received that authority from John the Baptist.

Another example of reading into a source a later concept. D&C 22 proves my point that he wasn’t claiming authority from angels, but rather from the establishment of a new covenant.

I think in 1830 he was through the Spirit talking around his experiences with “the ministering of angels” and it’s not until 1835 that he feels secure enough to almost fully reveal the extent of it. Remember Peter James and John never told the whole truth of what happened on the mount of transfiguration either.

Secure? He was being criticized for his failure in Zion’s Camp and not returning the saints to their lands in Missouri. There was also a trial before the High Council for his conduct during the expedition. When he dictated his own account in 1838, he was in Missouri about to be arrested and imprisoned and the Church driven from the state. So what exactly made him break his command to keep secret?

Edited February 12, 2013 by Dan Vogel