Darren10 Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 Here's a great standard in legislating morality (bold mine):6 But it came to pass in the latter end of the seventeenth year, there came a man into the land of Zarahemla, and he was Anti-Christ, for he began to preach unto the people against the prophecies which had been spoken by the prophets, concerning the coming of Christ.7 Now there was no law against a man’s belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.(Alma 30)
TAO Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 That same Jesus walked the roads paid for by Roman taxes, enjoyed a certain amount of protections paid for by Roman taxes. Moreover EVERY member of the Church that lives in America today benefits from the physical, and legal infrastructure of the US paid for by themselves, and others. More to the point the US is a secular country that allows for the freedom of religionTaxes are the dues we pay to live in a civilized society.Adam Smith.Thesometimessaint, I don't think many think taxes are completely bad. What there is much more debate on is how much taxes should be paid.On the other hand, taxes are a good example of the government using an authoritative force (there is nothing wrong with that though).
Bikeemikey Posted October 11, 2012 Posted October 11, 2012 Taxes and government programs are Satan's plan? Who knew? What I have an issue with is the the private sector always (with the exepction of military) out performs what the government does esp. in the way of charity. Government cost more and is less effective.I guess for, if one were to argue the former, of your points then the later does seem to make sense.Also I have never once thought that Taxes are evil or of the devil. Currently with US politics it seems to be the in thing to demonize the rich. Why should the rich pay more taxes when, considering that the rich with regards to tihitng are only asked to pay 10% which if you are in poverity you are still asked to pay 10%?That is what our taxes should be accross the board. Not 0 % for some one making under 30,000 and not 39% for some one making over 250,000. Any way I guess I agree with your point if one were to say that taxes and government are akin to Satan's plan.Again this is an American problem. Because American govt. is crappy at social administration (which is it self a hypothesis that is contested) does not mean all govts are.Stop making sweeping claims that are not true.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Again this is an American problem. Because American govt. is crappy at social administration (which is it self a hypothesis that is contested) does not mean all govts are.Stop making sweeping claims that are not true.Ok name one country were socialsim has worked? Ready go. 1
Walden Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Interesting topic. Certainly governments have, in the past, tried to legislate morality (e.g. Iran) to some disasterous results. However, there are some religious communities with very strict rules for their members which seem to do fine.The success of legislating morality among some religious communities is due to the fact that the adherents share the same worldview on morality, generally speaking.When applied to countries, or even large communities, this plurality of moral worldviews is greatly diluted, and thus the question becomes: whose morality do we base our legislation on? As an atheist, my view of morality differs from, say, an evangelical's morality, so who's morality do we base legislation on?Ok name one country were socialism has worked? Ready go.Well, I guess that you would have to more clearly define what you interpret "socialism" to be, as there are many forms, from democratic socialism to communism. Of course, there are a number of Scandinavian countries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc) that obviously "work" and have successfully implemented wide-scale socialist programs (universal healthcare, redistribution of wealth, large public pension programs, high labor union participation, etc.). Not only do these countries "work", but inhabitants of these countries are continually polled as being the "happiest" on the planet.
thesometimesaint Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Ok name one country were socialsim has worked? Ready go.Most of the rest of world is far more socialistic than the US.
changed Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) I thought someone started this one after the debate last night, but then I saw that it was started 2 days ago. (I won't name names or anything, but someone last night said something about not being pro-life because they viewed it as legislating morality). I do see the similarities between the premortal war - Satan trying to force everyone to be good, vs. God giving everyone freedom. I don't think our Heavenly Father is a complete anarchist though, I think He's a fan of the "love and logic" program, of allowing natural consequences to correct mistakes. Perhaps our society protects people from "natural consequences" too much? There is no perfect man-made government... it would be nice to get rid of a few gadianton robbers though.... and it would be even nicer if everyone started taking personal responsibility for themselves instead of blaming the gov for everything. Edited October 12, 2012 by changed 1
changed Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 Most of the rest of world is far more socialistic than the US.It can work on small scales within populations that take honor in their work. I think America is too large, and part of the population is too willing to take advantage of social programs for it to work here though.
Rob Osborn Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Satan's plan was to force no man into obedience. His plan is one of carnal pleasure and lawlessness. Gods kingdom is very strict with all manner of law Edited October 12, 2012 by Rob Osborn
changed Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Satan's plan was to force no man into obedience. His plan is one of carnal pleasure and lawlessness. Gods kingdom is very strict with all manner of lawI though it was over agency..."The War in Heaven was fought after Satan said that he would force everyone to obey his ideas." - http://www.lds.org/g... heaven" agencyGod shows us the path to take if we want to improve, but does not force anyone down the path.Look up the scriptural inscription on the liberty bell... Edited October 12, 2012 by changed
thesometimesaint Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) It can work on small scales within populations that take honor in their work. I think America is too large, and part of the population is too willing to take advantage of social programs for it to work here though.It works not just on small scale but the EEU as well.The EEU has close to 1/2 a billion people. The US a little over 300,000,000.Every study ever done denies that. Edited October 12, 2012 by thesometimesaint
Rob Osborn Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 I though it was over agency..."The War in Heaven was fought after Satan said that he would force everyone to obey his ideas." - http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/10/stewardship-a-sacred-trust?lang=eng&query=%22war+in+heaven%22+agencyThe war was and still is fought over the principle of good versus evil. Satan sought todestroy the kingdom not to build it up. Satan seeks the destruction of our agency by tempting us to sin so that he can lead us captive to his will and not our own. As we sin, we surrender agency. This is what is meant by the captive chains of hell- the restriction of being in operation ( agency).
DavidB Posted October 12, 2012 Author Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Satan's plan was to force no man into obedience. His plan is one of carnal pleasure and lawlessness. Gods kingdom is very strict with all manner of lawI have heard, with my own ears, an Apostle say "Agency is the freedom to choose the right." Edited October 12, 2012 by DavidB
DavidB Posted October 12, 2012 Author Posted October 12, 2012 First, off, I have NOT heard here or in church that taxes is Satan's plan unless one is being a bit facetious. I agree taxing directly is a bit of a form of legal theft but that's how legislation works. It legalizes action for certain members of society. Second, most people I have met, myself included, agree that there is a need to tax. The debate is who will be taxed, what will be taxed, where and when it will be taxed, why it'll be taxed, and how it'll be taxed. Third, legislating morality is an absolute necessity or there would not be any legislation whatsoever. People *always* use their sense of morality to support or oppose legislations as well as to craft and design legislation. Satan wanted to take away man's ability and freedom to choose for him or herself. Passing laws and establishing consequences for behavior does not take away one's freedom to choose. Parents set rules and expectations all the time. That does not take away a child's freedom to choose.Forth, yes, one can choose not to pay taxes. That doesn't mean that there's no consequence for doing so.My position on taxing is to remove power from government to tax its citizenry directly. Remove all forms of income and investment taxes and go with an indirect sales tax. There are thsoe who'd disagree with me and that's fine.Darren the comments occurred frequently in my ward concerning the passage of obamacare and other forms redistributtion via taxes.This thread is not about ObamaRomney-care.
changed Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 It works not just on small scale but the EEU as well. The EEU has close to 1/2 a billion people. The US a little over 300,000,000. The EEU is made up of many small countries, each with it's own independent government... Every study ever done denies that.http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=youtube+welfare+abuse&tnr=21&vid=&l=390&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DU.4759241096495317%26pid%3D15.1&***=Speech+3+-+Welfare+Abuse+by+Allison+Gelhaus&back=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26p%3Dyoutube%2Bwellfare%2Babuse&sigb=120burq58
DavidB Posted October 12, 2012 Author Posted October 12, 2012 Monty Python. Still funny after all these years. Blessed are the cheese makers.
changed Posted October 12, 2012 Posted October 12, 2012 I have heard, with my own ears, an Apostle say "Agency is the freedom to choose the right."Satan sought to destroy the agency of man, Moses 4:1–4 (Isa. 14:12–15; Abr. 3:27–28). you can also read through these:http://www.lds.org/search?query=%22destroy+the+agency%22〈=englds.org is a wonderful resource
thesometimesaint Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 The EEU is made up of many small countries, each with it's own independent government...http://video.search....&sigb=120burq58So? I never claimed the EEU is a political union.Sophistry, and demagoguery. There is no citizenship requirement for WIC.http://www.newmexicoresources.org/pages.cfm?ContentID=10&pageID=3&Subpages=%27yes%27&DynamicID=324#noncitizen
wenglund Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) I'm pretty sure it was Christ who said "render unto caesar..." don't think there is a problem with taxes.I am also pretty sure that Christ also said "render...unto God the things that are Gods."Can we agree that it is a problem, and perhaps immoral, if Ceasar is taxing us the point where he requires that we render unto him the things of God?For example, if the government taxes us to the point where we have no viable choice but to give to the government the money we would have given as tithes and offerings to God, particularly if the government has taken over the things of God and his kingdom in terms of caring for the poor and sick and widowed, then one can reasonably consider as problematic and immoral this level of rendering unto Ceasar . Thanks, -Wade Englund- Edited October 14, 2012 by wenglund
thesometimesaint Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 (edited) wengland:I'm pretty sure that if God wanted to he wouldn't need our help in taking care of the poor, the sick, or widowed. Edited October 14, 2012 by thesometimesaint
wenglund Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 wengland:I'm pretty sure that if God wanted to he wouldn't need our help in taking care of the poor, the sick, or widowed.I am pretty sure that if God wanted to remove that essential element of his plan of progression and pure religion, he would have--not that any of this is relevant to my point.Thanks, -Wade Englund-
thesometimesaint Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 wengland:You are free to not pay your taxes, but you are not free from the consequences of not paying your taxes.And the difference between an individual giving charity to help alleviate those problems and the people collectively forming a government to help alleviate those problems is what?
changed Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 .. the difference between an individual giving charity to help alleviate those problems and the people collectively forming a government to help alleviate those problems is what?I'm not wengland, but to me it is very important to have the ability to choose which charities to support (as opposed to being forced to support things like abortion). Also, I think those who receive know it was freely given charity, and not an entitlement, when it is voluntarily given. I agree with the church, that welfare needs should come first form the family and friends who are most familiar with the problems at stake, then from local community organizations, and as a last resort the gov. I'm ok with some of the gov welfare programs, I just think there are better solutions, and support putting more of the burden into the hands of individuals rather than with the gov.
DavidB Posted October 14, 2012 Author Posted October 14, 2012 Another question along the same line TSS:What is the difference between an individual choosing not to follow government laws and an individual choosing not to follow Gods laws?Is there any real difference when both Government and God have consequences for disobedientance?
thesometimesaint Posted October 14, 2012 Posted October 14, 2012 DavidB:At least in this life I answerable to the government for my actions. Only in the next one will I be answerable to God."The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ... Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error".Thomas Jefferson
Recommended Posts