How Common Was Baptism In Ot Times (Between Moses And Lehi)?

[inquiringmind]

When Paul speaks of his fathers being baptized by Moses "in cloud and sea" he seems to be speaking metaphorically, and there's a passage in D&C (or POGP) that talks about Moses trying to bring his people into the priesthood, but not being able to (and their being given over to carnal ordinances, I think.)

So just how common was baptism in old testament times?

Was it more of an exception than the rule?

Could Lehi have been baptized (and maybe given the priesthood) by Jeremiah?

Could his family's practice of the ordinance have been virtually unknown in old world Judaism (until the coming of John the Baptist)?

If it was common for Old Testament believers to be baptized (even in the Old World), what is Paul's point in 1 Cor. 10?

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. (verses 1-5.)

Why get into metaphors about "cloud and sea" if they were literally baptized by Moses, Aaron, or Aaron's sons?

I know it's Mormon doctrine that Baptism goes back to Adam, but even if all the major prophets (like Adam, Noah, Moses, Jeremiah, Lehi?) were baptized, how common was it among the rank and file of Israel?

Edited March 16, 2012 by inquiringmind

[thesometimesaint]

I don't know. But apparantly common enough that the baptisms by John the Baptist didn't raise eyebrows.

[Mehrdad]

From what I understand, Baptism in the Jewish faith meant a new beginning for one that was joining the faith.

Below are some articles I found about the practice, apparently it was common in ancient times. I am not sure if Jeremiah baptised Lehi, but I would have been plausible.

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/2456-baptism

http://www.shema.com/articles/articles-103.php

[Zakuska]

Apparently... common enough that Archeologists use baptismal fonts to martk settlements, religious sites and temples.

http://www.ynetnews....4134818,00.html

http://www.biblicala...side-jerusalem/

http://popular-archa...rthed-in-israel

2,000-Year-Old Ritual Bath Unearthed in Israel

A plaster covered structure, likely a ritual bath (or mikveh in Hebrew), dated to the Second Temple period (first century BCE-first century CE) was unearthed during an archaeological excavation near Kibbutz Zor'a in Israel.

Conducted by the Israel Antiquities Authority in advance of plans by a company to install a water line at the location, the excavation uncovered a plaster-treated square structure with three walls designed to store water. In a corner, a channel was installed anciently to drain the water into the associated ritual bath. Moreover, a plaster floor and three descending stairs were exposed.

A mikveh, or ritual bath, is a small pool-like structure that held water, used as a means of ritual purification in connection with religious practices or activity. Mikva'ot (plural for mikveh) were commonly used during the Second Temple period by the Jewish inhabitants of Judea. Ancient examples of such structures can be found at archaeological sites such as Khirbet Qumran near the Dead Sea, in the area where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found.

According to archaeologists at the site, the discovery is in line with historical records that indicate a Jewish settlement existed in the region approximately 2,000 years ago, during the period that included the reign of King Herod.

Hmmm, a baptismal font in King Herods time? Who would have thunk it?!

http://www.google.co...9QEwCg&dur=6031

Edited March 16, 2012 by Zakuska

[David T]

Once-for-all immersions like John's that were tied to a specific person who performed it, that people needed to travel to accomplish, and also had major eschatological ramifications were very different than the regularly-repeated Mikveh self-immersions, and other purity rituals.

John's ritual was quite unique, and did indeed raise substantial eyebrows. The very act was viewed as a sign of devotion to God, and as a marker of preparation and protection for the Fiery End Times, which were About To Happen At Any Moment.

During this period, there were lots of differing immersion/washing rituals going on, some of them sacerdotal, some of them political, many of them routine. But to call each of them 'baptisms' related to and having the same significance as the present practice is anachronistic, and quite misleading.

Edited March 16, 2012 by nackhadlow

[inquiringmind]

From what I understand, Baptism in the Jewish faith meant a new beginning for one that was joining the faith.

Below are some articles I found about the practice, apparently it was common in ancient times. I am not sure if Jeremiah baptised Lehi, but it would have been plausible.

It wouldn't have been necessary for Lehi to have been baptized by someone of the stature of a Jeremiah if baptism was as common in Old Testament times as you seem to think it was.

But Paul's comments in 1 Cor. 10 (about the metaphorical baptisms of "cloud and sea") seem to indicate that it wasn't all that common for the ancestors of Paul's Jewish readers to have been literally baptized.

What do the standard works (specifically the D&C, and POGP) have to say about this?

Once-for-all immersions like John's that were tied to a specific person who performed it, that people needed to travel to accomplish, and also had major eschatological ramifications were very different than the regularly-repeated Mikveh self-immersions, and other purity rituals...

I think the Law of Moses prescribed a ritual immersion for a woman every time she got over her monthly period, for a man every time he had nocturnal emissions, and for priests and Levites every time they entered the Temple (or tabernacle)?

And I'm pretty sure the Qumran community practiced daily immersions, so I'm sure there's some truth to what you say here nackhadlow (but this could be because Moses was unable to fully bring people into the blessings of the priesthood, and they were given over to carnal ordinances they could not live by--as i believe it says somewhere in the standard works, which is another reason I question how common baptism actually was.)

Can anyone shed more light on what the standard works actually teach here?

Edited March 16, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

Apparently... common enough that Archeologists use baptismal fonts to martk settlements, religious sites and temples.

http://www.ynetnews....4134818,00.html

http://www.biblicala...side-jerusalem/

http://popular-archa...rthed-in-israel

Hmmm, a baptismal font in King Herods time? Who would have thunk it?!

http://www.google.co...9QEwCg&dur=6031

I don't think a mikvah is necessarily a "baptismal font" (and there's nothing surprising about a mikvah from the tme of Hezekiah.)

The Jewish High Priest would immerse himself before conducting the service on the Day of Atonement, and each priest participating in the temple service also had to be immersed, beside washing his hands and feet from the laver. Pious Jewish men had to immerse themselves before festivals. Matutinal ritual immersion was practiced by the Hemerobaptists (Greek “daily bathers”), a Jewish sect, mentioned by the Church Fathers, probably the tovelei shaharit (“dawn bathers”) mentioned in the Talmud—most likely Essenes—and by pious ascetics, mystics, and Hasidim, and some Jews still practice immersion daily before the morning prayer, perhaps showing that the Hemerobaptists were not unusually peculiar.

http://www.askwhy.co...JohnBaptist.php

I know that the Book of Mormon tells us there were a lot of baptisms going on in the New World in Old Testament times, but do the standard works tell us anything about how common (or uncommon) the practice was in the Old World?

P.S. I think even the article I linked to uses the word "baptism" too loosely, and I assume that most of us would agree that there's some difference between Christian/Mormon "baptism" and ritual lustrations (whether of pagan mystery religions, or Mosaic Judaism.)

Edited March 16, 2012 by inquiringmind

[inquiringmind]

P.S. I still haven't found the passage I was thinking of in the OP (which I still believe is in D&C somewhere), but it went something like this:

"Moses tried to bring his people into the blessings of the priesthood, but he couldn't. So God took away the ordinances of the higher priesthood and left the lower priesthood which consisted in carnal ordinances, and gave them laws they could not live by."

Does that ring a bell with anyone?

Is there anything like that in the standard works (or am I maybe thinking of something I read in the JS Bible Commentary)?

And could this mean that baptism (for most Jews, living in the old world, before Christ, and not part of Lehi's family) degenerated into no more than the frequent ritual lustrations everyone knows they practiced?

Could this explain Paul's metaphorical treatment of baptism in 1 Cor. 10:1-6?

And if baptism (as we understand it today) was uncommon in the 6th century B.C., could Lehi have baptized by some uncommon individual (like the prophet Jeremiah)?

Anyone?

Edited March 17, 2012 by inquiringmind

[Zakuska]

We can stretch the Mikvah back to at least king Solomon. and the laver on the backs of twelve oxen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_Sea

[inquiringmind]

We can stretch the Mikvah back to at least king Solomon. and the laver on the backs of twelve oxen.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Molten_Sea

It goes back further than Solomon.

"Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying: You shall also make a laver of bronze, with its base also of bronze, for washing. You shall put it between the tabernacle of meeting and the altar. And you shall put water in it, for Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet in water from it. When they go into the tabernacle of meeting, or when they come near the altar to minister, to burn an offering made by fire to the LORD, they shall wash with water, lest they die. So they shall wash their hands and their feet, lest they die. And it shall be a statute forever to them-- to him and his descendants throughout their generations." (Exodus 30:17-21.)

But I don't see what the bronze laver has to do with my question here.

I don't see how the Aaronic priest's washing of their hands and feet every time they entered the tabernacle (or Temple) equates to baptism.

I suppose there could be some symbolic connection, but that's not my question.

My question is whether the standard works say anything about how common the ordinance of Christian Baptism (as LDS understand it today) was among Old Testament Jews (living in the Near East, before the coming of Christ, and without any knowledge of the Book of Mormon)?

Could it in fact have been very rare for any Jew (outside Lehi's New World community) to have understood and received the ordinance of baptism?

Edited March 17, 2012 by inquiringmind

[volgadon]

My question is whether the standard works say anything about how common the ordinance of Christian Baptism (as LDS understand it today) was among Old Testament Jews (living in the Near East, before the coming of Christ, and without any knowledge of the Book of Mormon)?

Could it in fact have been very rare for any Jew (outside Lehi's New World community) to have understood and received the ordinance of baptism?

Given Nephi's emphasis, I suspect that it wasn't that common.

[inquiringmind]

Given Nephi's emphasis, I suspect that it wasn't that common.

Thank you.

[Cobalt-70]

My question is whether the standard works say anything about how common the ordinance of Christian Baptism (as LDS understand it today) was among Old Testament Jews (living in the Near East, before the coming of Christ, and without any knowledge of the Book of Mormon)?

The word "baptism" is just a fancy Greek word for washing, and ritual washings occurred as far back in Hebrew history (and pre-Hebrew history) as you want to go. Thus, baptisms go back to the dawn of history. But you raise a good point that the meaning of baptisms may not necessarily be that old.

What baptism meant to John the Baptist is different than what it meant to Peter and Paul. Undoubtedly, John's baptism meant something different than Essene baptisms, or other types of baptism that were common during his era. The meaning of baptism even evolved in the Book of Mormon as Joseph Smith's understanding of it changed. And then the meaning of baptism changed again in the late 1830s when baptisms for the dead were introduced.