I Am Come That They Might Have Life

[HeatherAnn]

God is life! Not just barely surviving - but thriving abundantly with life - physically, mentally & spiritually!

Some of my favorite scriptures about life are...

"He that followeth after righteousness... findeth life." -Prov 21:21

"Narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life." -Matt 7:14

"In him was life, & the life was the light of men." -John 1:4 ("The kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17)

"I am the way, the truth & the light." -John 14:6 ("I am" is what Moses found God to be... we connect to God when we are "still" (Prov. 46:10) & in the moment... "I am")

"Spiritually minded is life & peace." -Rom 8:6

"God... of the living: for all live unto him." -Luke 20:38

"...look to God and live." -Alma 37:47

"...I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me."-Gal 2:20

"He that findeth his life shall lose it: & he that loseth his life fo rmy sake shall find it." -Matt 10:39

He that clings to carnal nature life shall lose spiritual life & He that loses his carnal nature life shall find spiritual life.

Tree of life (Gen. 2:9, Reve. 22:2. 1Nephi 11:25) - Could it be the tree of life in Lehi's dream is symbolic of God's love - spiritual & physical vitality?

"Before you life & death... therefore choose life." -Deut 30:19

"...according to his desires, whether he desireth... life or death." -Alma 29:5

Our liveliness & health, physically, emotionally & spiritually are largely influenced by our thoughts.

"As a man thinketh, so is he." -Proverbs 23:7

Sin=incorrect thoughts (& associated feelings & actions)

Repentance: correcting thoughts (esp. at a subconscious level, which is most influential).

Gospel - good news... we're born again & again (& die again & again to "old news" no longer helpful to us).

"I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." -John 10:10

[altersteve]

"He is the light and the life of the world; yea, a light that is endless, that can never be darkened; yea, and also a life which is endless, that there can be no more death" (Mosiah 16:9).

[HeatherAnn]

"He is the light and the life of the world; yea, a light that is endless, that can never be darkened; yea, and also a life which is endless, that there can be no more death" (Mosiah 16:9).

That scripture reminds me of those who suffered during the Holocaust.

Even some who were killed, had such a spirituality about them - an eternal life within - that nobody could ever kill!

[jo1952]

That scripture reminds me of those who suffered during the Holocaust.

Even some who were killed, had such a spirituality about them - an eternal life within - that nobody could ever kill!

Hi HeatherAnn!

I believe that those who receive their punishment in the flesh, avoid being punished after physical death. I believe the Jews are a prime example of this. In fact, even though most Jews did not recognize who Jesus was received a blindness, which then opened the door to the Gentiles, ALL Jews will be saved in accordance with the teachings of Paul. Indeed, therefore, "I came that they might have life"!! Praise God!!

Best regards,

jo

[HeatherAnn]

Hi HeatherAnn!

I believe that those who receive their punishment in the flesh, avoid being punished after physical death. I believe the Jews are a prime example of this. In fact, even though most Jews did not recognize who Jesus was received a blindness, which then opened the door to the Gentiles, ALL Jews will be saved in accordance with the teachings of Paul. Indeed, therefore, "I came that they might have life"!! Praise God!!

Best regards,

jo

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Jo.

One thing I admire about Mormonism is that it (at least in theory) cuts everyone some slack.

Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Athesist - whatever belief or lack of - are given a chance after-life.

Personally, I believe that we are not punished for our sins, but by them.

I do believe that what comes around goes around, even if it's after death, when we realize the full impact of our thoughts, feelings & behavior.

I was thinking about this idea of life - throughout the scriptures - in relation to the "Real Age" test, which instead of focusing on chronological age, considers quality of health - or liveliness.

http://www.realage.com/landing/entry4?cbr=GGLE10037X

As I read more about it, I realize our livliness depends on multiple factors... ranging from diet, exercise, sleep, flossing... to socializing... to relaxing & getting a handle on stress ("As a man thinketh so is he.").

[LeSellers]

I believe that we are not punished for our sins, but by them.

The two positions are not mutually exclusive. Both are true.

Lehi

[HeatherAnn]

The two positions are not mutually exclusive. Both are true.

Lehi

Hi Lehi,

Let's use this example... (again in this life - not after life)...

I understand the consequence of running up against a brick wall.

Now, please explain the punishment God would inflict (assuming it's God doing the punishing) in addition to the consequence of that.

Edited September 7, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[LeSellers]

Let's use this example... (again in this life - not after life)...

I understand the consequence of running up against a brick wall.

Now, please explain the punishment God would inflict (assuming it's God doing the punishing) in addition to the consequence of that.

Unless "running up against a brick wall" is a method of suicide, it is not a sin. Why God would punish someone for not sinning is confusing.

Take murder, however. I'm not saying this is how anything happens, but I believe that Voldemort was punished for murder by the instability of his "soul" (not the LDS usage of the word). But were we to assume he's a real person, not only would he have paid for those sins by that instability, he would also have to pay for them (absent repentance—which in his case seems unlikely) in the next life.

It's a bit of a puzzler why you'd limit the punishment to this life, since God is interested in our existence in this one as well as the next one. To Him, they're all pieces of the same thing.

Lehi

[altersteve]

Hi Lehi,

Let's use this example... (again in this life - not after life)...

I understand the consequence of running up against a brick wall.

Now, please explain the punishment God would inflict (assuming it's God doing the punishing) in addition to the consequence of that.

I think this is irrelevant since running up against a brick wall is not considered a sin.

Edit: Okay, never mind, LeSellers beat me to it.

Edited September 7, 2011 by altersteve

[jo1952]

Unless "running up against a brick wall" is a method of suicide, it is not a sin. Why God would punish someone for not sinning is confusing.

Hi Lehi!

I think that there is great misunderstanding about suicide. Rather than derail the thread, however, I will only say that that there are many causes which can lead a person to end their own life. All of those causes are taken into consideration by God. It is so misunderstood, in fact, that loved ones left behind go through the rest of their life suffering beyond just going through the mourning process for that person. For instance, in the case of a mentally ill person (we could use a person who has suffered severe chronic depression for years and years without relief) who ends their own life, is actually dying as a result of the disease they have. This would be no different from a person dying of a terminal physical illness. Neither have a cure; only medications which try to sustain life even though the quality of life is not improved. If loved ones could understand this, perhaps they would not be so haunted by the act of suicide.

Take murder, however. I'm not saying this is how anything happens, but I believe that Voldemort was punished for murder by the instability of his "soul" (not the LDS usage of the word). But were we to assume he's a real person, not only would he have paid for those sins by that instability, he would also have to pay for them (absent repentance—which in his case seems unlikely) in the next life.

It's a bit of a puzzler why you'd limit the punishment to this life, since God is interested in our existence in this one as well as the next one. To Him, they're all pieces of the same thing.

Lehi

HeatherAnn didn't limit punishment to this life:

I do believe that what comes around goes around, even if it's after death, when we realize the full impact of our thoughts, feelings & behavior.

Best regards,

jo

[HeatherAnn]

Unless "running up against a brick wall" is a method of suicide, it is not a sin. Why God would punish someone for not sinning is confusing.

Take murder, however. I'm not saying this is how anything happens, but I believe that Voldemort was punished for murder by the instability of his "soul" (not the LDS usage of the word). But were we to assume he's a real person, not only would he have paid for those sins by that instability, he would also have to pay for them (absent repentance—which in his case seems unlikely) in the next life.

It's a bit of a puzzler why you'd limit the punishment to this life, since God is interested in our existence in this one as well as the next one. To Him, they're all pieces of the same thing.

Lehi

I was thinking about it in a way like suicide. We do things every day that limit life within us... Even us LDS... eat terrible foods, don't exercise enough, stress out too easily (don't say no when we should) etc.

It's like running at a brick wall - we know it's not a smart thing to do, but we do it anyway. Isn't that sin? - Incorrect thoughts, & related feelings & behavior - which lead to harm (for us, or others).

Whatever we do affects us - even if we don't realize it.

It seems like some want to be sure people pay EXTRA for how they made them or another feel.

That's not how it works. Newton's law isn't too off from spiritual laws... "For everything there is an equal & opposite reaction."

A ball will only bounce so high... you can't make it bounce higher without changing something.

We pay for our sins by the natural consequences... We're connected with each other. We just don't realize it with limited awareness.

Whatever I do or say to you, or others affects me. In fact, often what I say or do reflects more about how I feel about myself than how I feel about others.

When we start to see that, we realize the truth that Joseph Smith taught - man is his own condemner.

Edited September 8, 2011 by HeatherAnn

[HeatherAnn]

HeatherAnn didn't limit punishment to this life:

I do believe that what comes around goes around, even if it's after death, when we realize the full impact of our thoughts, feelings & behavior.

Best regards,

jo

Thanks for clarifying that, Jo.

I think "this life is the time to repent" - to progress - & improve thinking, & related feelings & behavior.

Often it seems to take tradegy, or death (NDE's) - to become more aware of our responsibility & power.

We don't have to wait for that. We can be more alive, have life more abundantly NOW!

[ed2276]

"The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men." D&C 93:9

[jo1952]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Jo.

One thing I admire about Mormonism is that it (at least in theory) cuts everyone some slack.

Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Athesist - whatever belief or lack of - are given a chance after-life.

Personally, I believe that we are not punished for our sins, but by them.

I do believe that what comes around goes around, even if it's after death, when we realize the full impact of our thoughts, feelings & behavior.

I was thinking about this idea of life - throughout the scriptures - in relation to the "Real Age" test, which instead of focusing on chronological age, considers quality of health - or liveliness.

http://www.realage.com/landing/entry4?cbr=GGLE10037X

As I read more about it, I realize our livliness depends on multiple factors... ranging from diet, exercise, sleep, flossing... to socializing... to relaxing & getting a handle on stress ("As a man thinketh so is he.").

Hi HeatherAnn:

An interesting concept: "we are not punished for our sins, but by them". Indeed, when we recognize that our actions are out of alignment with God's will, we create our own prison for suffering as a result of any choices we knowingly made which went against His will. Having the knowledge of the Atonement gives us the opportunity to free ourselves of the consequences. The process of repentence is how we obtain God's mercy while in the flesh. Herein is one "layer" of the blessings of life which Christ brings us. While still in our body of flesh, we then "live" freed of our "sin" and our energies can then be used to partake of the good things God has freely given us. Another "layer" of "life" is the knowledge of salvation in the eternities.

I believe God has at least three methods of dealing with the unrepentent person, who does not receive forgiveness (the cleansing from being out of alignment) in this life. One: If we die in sin, our spirit is brought to rememberance of unforgiven sins - and "justice" "prison" takes over. Somehow, this process for paying for our sins is much worse than if we had availed ourselves of God's mercy while in the flesh. This is the prison which Christ died for to save us "from". Here, the knowledge of our being out of alignment with God's will prevents us from being able to be in His presence. Every "farthing" of our debt must be paid to meet the demands of Divine Justice. It would have been much better if we had repented while in the flesh - thereby receiving God's mercy.

Two: Would be like the example of the Jews who have been blinded. They have suffered terribly while in the flesh. Yet I do not believe they will suffer any torment after physical death for something which God blinded them to. Thus, their spirits will not suffer after they complete their second estate; at least not because they did not accept Jesus as the Christ. In this respect, I believe that, even though the Jewish people have suffered terribly in the flesh, God is actually showing them great mercy; their spirits will not suffer later for not recognizing who Christ is.

Three: This would be the type of punishment which is exemplified by those who suffered physical death such as the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. They are those who have embraced the world so entirely that Satan was the only god they worshipped. I do not believe these people would be considered sons of Perdition. However, I think it could be construed that their physical destruction may also be a form of mercy inasmuch as this would have limited the quantity of their sins by virtue of the fact that their physical lives were shortened which prevented them from continuing to sin. Thus their time in dealing with the knowledge of their sin after this life has also been limited, thereby the amount of "time" needed to pay for every farthing would also be shortened.

Anyway, I know that some of these ideas may seem "out there" by some; however, I think they are supportable by teachings in our Standard Works.

Best regards,

jo

[Mudcat]

That scripture reminds me of those who suffered during the Holocaust.

Even some who were killed, had such a spirituality about them - an eternal life within - that nobody could ever kill!

I think it is sad that presently Israel seems to be about 80% atheist. Some would attribute the percentage to the Holocaust.

Thank God I have no real experience of those times.. but, Jewish skin used for lamp shade covers, Jewish hair used to stuff pillows, medical experiments and so on. It seems many of those reached to their God and I pray they found Him.

But for those that followed them. I suppose, given all that had happened, I can see why it is they don't bother looking for him.

[volgadon]

I think it is sad that presently Israel seems to be about 80% atheist. Some would attribute the percentage to the Holocaust.

There are die-hard atheists in Israel, but those stats can be decptive. Our categories are usually as follows. Chiloni- secular, that is, doesn't observe the commandments and traditions.

Shomer Masoret- keeper of tradition, that is, someone who observes the holidays and most of the commandments, but without living a haredi lifestyle.

Haredi- Ultra-orthodox.

[Mudcat]

There are die-hard atheists in Israel, but those stats can be decptive. Our categories are usually as follows. Chiloni- secular, that is, doesn't observe the commandments and traditions.

Shomer Masoret- keeper of tradition, that is, someone who observes the holidays and most of the commandments, but without living a haredi lifestyle.

Haredi- Ultra-orthodox.

That is good to know Volgadon. I'll defer to your experience.

Let me ask you this. What would you assess was the actual percentage of Jewish Israeli's that believe in God?

[jo1952]

I think it is sad that presently Israel seems to be about 80% atheist. Some would attribute the percentage to the Holocaust.

Thank God I have no real experience of those times.. but, Jewish skin used for lamp shade covers, Jewish hair used to stuff pillows, medical experiments and so on. It seems many of those reached to their God and I pray they found Him.

But for those that followed them. I suppose, given all that had happened, I can see why it is they don't bother looking for him.

Be comforted, Mudcat. ALL of the House of Jacob (Israel), will be saved:

Romans 11:25-27 (emphasis added)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Best regards,

jo

[volgadon]

That is good to know Volgadon. I'll defer to your experience.

Let me ask you this. What would you assess was the actual percentage of Jewish Israeli's that believe in God?

I would say that the percentage of actual atheists is smaller, perhaps 15%, but this is a guess.

[HeatherAnn]

Hi Jo,

Thanks for your response.

I especially appreciate your respectful tone in this post & many others of yours.

I understand many of your points... since they've been discussed in church.

I believe in Atonement... but not the way it's been traditionally mistaught (largely stemming from political motives). I believe we are here to learn from our mistakes... make restitution for them when possible, & to forgive ourselves & others. Not one single person in this life will die perfect, without sin. We're designed to sin... opposition in all things - so we can progress.

And at death, we're not all of a sudden rid of all of our sins - no matter how much we wish them away by hoping someone would take them.

"That same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world." -Alma 34:34

Nobody but us can change our thoughts & related feelings & behavior. To believe otherwise limits us, & IMO, is sin.

When we claim sin deserves extra punishment, or deny the consequences of our sins... that in itself is sin.

It's not sin itself that is so evil (since God created us to sin - to learn)... but it's the persistent avoidance of realizing it as sin that is evil.

Story of 2 thieves on each side of Jesus on the cross, symbolically represent our choices... in aknowledging or denying sin.

The 1st denied sin... & chastized Jesus for not saving them, "If thou be Christ, save thyself & us." But the 2nd, rebuked the 1st by saying, "Thou art in the same condemnation - And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss." The 2nd aknowedged his sin & for that Jesus said, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." Luke 23

[HeatherAnn]

I think it is sad that presently Israel seems to be about 80% atheist. Some would attribute the percentage to the Holocaust.

Thank God I have no real experience of those times.. but, Jewish skin used for lamp shade covers, Jewish hair used to stuff pillows, medical experiments and so on. It seems many of those reached to their God and I pray they found Him.

But for those that followed them. I suppose, given all that had happened, I can see why it is they don't bother looking for him.

I read, "A 2003 poll found that while 79% of Americans believe in God, only 48% of American Jews do...While 66% of Americans said they were "absolutely certain" of God's existence, 24% of American Jews said the same. And though 9 percent of Americans believe there is no God (8% Catholic and 4% Protestant), 19 percent of American Jews believe God does not exist."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews

Maybe the lack of belief in God is the lack of an appropriate definition of God.

If God is supposed to save us, or be there for us when we need him, then it makes sense that those who suffer without help will stop believing in God, & teach their children likewise.

However, their loss. At the most scientific level, God does exist - subconsciously. And denying that subconsious power if denying most of what we think, feel & do.

In this life, I'll never completely understand God, but I believe our experience of God is always within (obviously)... which depends on our psychology (study of the soul) to realize.

I also believe that God is among us (like dark energy/matter - permeating & composing most of the Universe)... in everyone - all life. When we pray with real faith, I believe that it's our subconscious & spirits speaking to others.

"Prayer doesn't change things... it changes people & people change things." God does not do anything, but inspires us to do it.

Yet, others don't have to respond - we have free agency. So, atheism inspired by the Holocaust, may not be so much a lack of belief in God, but a lack of belief in the God (good, spiritual life) within others.

Edited September 8, 2011 by HeatherAnn