Did Joseph Smith Restore Theosis? Part Four: Esoteric Jewish Theology

[Rob Bowman]

Bill,

I can save us a lot of time. Next time I say something you are tempted to disagree with, just assume that I really meant the same thing that you believe. Otherwise, if you choose to disagree with anything I say, I might just dismiss your objections as "quibbling."

Quibble, quibble, quibble.

[altersteve]

Gospel Principles says the exalted will have "all glory." Do you have a secret decoder ring that reveals that "all" here means something other than all?

Gospel Principles says this, Gospel Principles says that . . . maybe you should stop treating Gospel Principles as the final word on LDS doctrine, because it's not. It's a guide book, nothing more. It is the scriptures and the united voice of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve that determine official Church doctrine. The fact is, LDS doctrine states that we will never be as glorious as our Heavenly Father, period. As we glorify Him, He blesses us with a share of that glory, and we use that to glorify Him even more, ad infinitum. It's an eternal cycle. This is what "eternal progression" means. If we have "all" that our Father has, then we can't eternally progress to where He is, now can we? Furthermore, the Church teaches that our Heavenly Father is the God of gods. If we become equal to Him in every way, then He is no longer our God. Since the Church clearly teaches that He always will be, your claim that we believe that will be totally equal to Him in nature, power, glory, and works is false.

You need to start using other sources for your criticisms. The standard works (including the Bible), official statements and proclamations by the First Presidency, Ensign articles, Conference talks, and more should all be consulted for learning about official LDS doctrine, not just the current edition of Gospel Principles and other manuals, which seem to be the only sources you rely on.

Edited October 3, 2011 by altersteve

[Bill Hamblin]

You might consider editing this.

Lehi, himself the fumble-fingered

D'oh!

[Bill Hamblin]

Bill,

I can save us a lot of time. Next time I say something you are tempted to disagree with, just assume that I really meant the same thing that you believe. Otherwise, if you choose to disagree with anything I say, I might just dismiss your objections as "quibbling."

Quibble, quibble, quibble.

[Bill Hamblin]

Bill,

On the one hand, you say there is no one patristic doctrine of deification. On the other hand, you insist that no evangelical agrees with the patristic doctrine of deification. Hmm.

On the one hand, you want to argue that Mormons, the Greek fathers, and the Eastern Orthodox line up on one side of the deification/no-deification divide. On the other hand, you acknowledge that the Greek/Eastern deification tradition largely developed in the context of Neoplatonic assumptions, which presumably if we were discussing the Trinity you would be criticizing. Hmm.

As far as I can tell, evangelicals agree with at least some of the church fathers as to what the "deified" believer will be, i.e., what kind of being he or she will be, what essential changes that transformation will involve. Obviously, we disagree with them regarding various aspects of their teachings as to how believers get there, including their sacramentalism, their Neoplatonic understanding of the spiritual life, etc.

If any believers are currently "deified," Mary would be. Evangelicals have a problem with the Roman Catholic Mariological doctrines that place her in a key if not unique role in church piety and the Christian life.

So the result is that some ancient Christian concepts of the state of the saved are also held by Evangelicals? No kidding!?

The fact that, after all this discussion, you still feel it is required to put the word "deified" in quotations says it all. I rest my case.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Bill Hamblin

[Ares]

You could answer my questions in just a few words, like "Yes" or "No."

Good advice for everyone involved. The dissembling is getting tedious.

[KevinG]

DaddyG,

You asked:

It means that God adopts believers in Christ as his "children," bestowing on them immortality and physical and spiritual perfection, conforming them to the image of Christ in those respects, making them inheritors with Christ of the eternal kingdom. It does not mean that they become Gods, i.e., it does not mean that they become omnipotent, omniscient beings. See my Parchment and Pen article that discusses this very statement in Romans 8.

Once God's children are perfected, like Christ (in any respect), inheriters of the eternal kingdom... what is their role then according to your understanding?

It seems natural to me that literal or even adopted children who inherit all the Father has to give them would take on a role like unto the Father to continue and help glorify His work.

[Jesterss]

The fact is, LDS doctrine states that we will never be as glorious as our Heavenly Father, period. As we glorify Him, He blesses us with a share of that glory, and we use that to glorify Him even more, ad infinitum. It's an eternal cycle. This is what "eternal progression" means. If we have "all" that our Father has, then we can't eternally progress to where He is, now can we? Furthermore, the Church teaches that our Heavenly Father is the God of gods. If we become equal to Him in every way, then He is no longer our God. Since the Church clearly teaches that He always will be, your claim that we believe that will be totally equal to Him in nature, power, glory, and works is false.

So in trying to understand this logic, if we are supposed to be eternally growing and maturing or "progressing", it seems as if its an endless project that ultimately is never reached... Why would there be an eternal progression if there is no end point? Why wouldn't any of the gifts that are to be given be given instantly? Eternal progression sounds more like failure to me. If you have a goal that is unattainable, what is the purpose?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

So in trying to understand this logic, if we are supposed to be eternally growing and maturing or "progressing", it seems as if its an endless project that ultimately is never reached... Why would there be an eternal progression if there is no end point? Why wouldn't any of the gifts that are to be given be given instantly? Eternal progression sounds more like failure to me. If you have a goal that is unattainable, what is the purpose?

Nothing like a straw man of what we actually believe. No one has talked about setting a "goal that is unattainable".

And Eternal progression has more to do with an increase, more than anything else. We progress through our kids. The goal

is fully attainable. Surely you jest, yet again.

[Jesterss]

Nothing like a straw man of what we actually believe. No one has talked about setting a "goal that is unattainable".

I never said that's what you believe.. I said to me... Because if you view it in the sense of eternal progression, that means there's either an entirely unattainable amount of steps since it takes eternity (never ending), or that what you are trying to become like, is also changing and progressing, which is suffice to say, God is not perfect and is continually changing... So you believe God is not perfect and is progressing himself? Or do you believe that there are just so many steps that it takes eternity to reach and is therefore, unattainable? Obviously you have your stance and clarification, I'm just adding my logic to this.. If you don't agree, make your point.. But don't tell me I'm a straw man without providing clarification for my error..

And Eternal progression has more to do with an increase, more than anything else. We progress through our kids. The goal

is fully attainable. Surely you jest, yet again.

I realize it is an increase, as progression is always an increase or "next step along the path" sort of thinking... There is something "better" to be had or learned.. I think we both realize the definition.. but something either has to be changing, or there really is a sense of "unattainability"...

[altersteve]

Nothing is unattainable, that's the point. We continue to grow and progress eternally, in knowledge, in glory, and in all other areas. There is always more to learn, something "better" to reach. We do believe that God too is progressing, but He is perfect because of this. He, like us, is eternally progressing in glory. Once again, when we glorify Him, He progresses in that sense. Otherwise, there would be a limit on His glory; it would be as high as it can be, and it can't increase anymore. That is certainly not perfection at all. And if God's glory cannot increase, then we would be unable to glorify Him, which would render Him unable to share His glory with us, which in turn cause Him to cease being God. Obviously, though, God is God, and His work and all of His creations, His children, are what glorify Him. Sharing His glory with us,allowing us to become like Him, is what glorifies Him: "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39) — the most important sentence ever written in my opinion.

Also, "progress" and "change" are completely different. Saying that God is unchanging but that He also progresses in glory is not a contradiction.

Edited October 3, 2011 by altersteve

[Rob Bowman]

Steve,

Okay, I will simply hold you to the same standard you say you expect me to use. CFR that it is official LDS doctrine that we will never be as glorious as our Heavenly Father.

Gospel Principles says this, Gospel Principles says that . . . maybe you should stop treating Gospel Principles as the final word on LDS doctrine, because it's not. It's a guide book, nothing more. It is the scriptures and the united voice of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve that determine official Church doctrine. The fact is, LDS doctrine states that we will never be as glorious as our Heavenly Father, period. As we glorify Him, He blesses us with a share of that glory, and we use that to glorify Him even more, ad infinitum. It's an eternal cycle. This is what "eternal progression" means. If we have "all" that our Father has, then we can't eternally progress to where He is, now can we? Furthermore, the Church teaches that our Heavenly Father is the God of gods. If we become equal to Him in every way, then He is no longer our God. Since the Church clearly teaches that He always will be, your claim that we believe that will be totally equal to Him in nature, power, glory, and works is false.

You need to start using other sources for your criticisms. The standard works (including the Bible), official statements and proclamations by the First Presidency, Ensign articles, Conference talks, and more should all be consulted for learning about official LDS doctrine, not just the current edition of Gospel Principles and other manuals, which seem to be the only sources you rely on.

[Rob Bowman]

Bill,

So I put "deified" in quotation marks. So what? Quibble, quibble, quibble.

So the result is that some ancient Christian concepts of the state of the saved are also held by Evangelicals? No kidding!?

The fact that, after all this discussion, you still feel it is required to put the word "deified" in quotations says it all. I rest my case.

[Rob Bowman]

DaddyG,

You asked:

Once God's children are perfected, like Christ (in any respect), inheriters of the eternal kingdom... what is their role then according to your understanding?

It seems natural to me that literal or even adopted children who inherit all the Father has to give them would take on a role like unto the Father to continue and help glorify His work.

The classic evangelical answer to your question is found in the Westminster Catechism: "to glorify God and enjoy him forever."

[Jesterss]

Nothing is unattainable, that's the point. We continue to grow and progress eternally, in knowledge, in glory, and in all other areas. There is always more to learn, something "better" to reach.

Perhaps this is true. Perhaps you are always learning, wouldn't that then mean that 100% knowledge is unattainable? Therefore, we would never be perfected in knowledge. Same for any other area. We would not be perfected. Maybe I'm bringing my own view in on this though. I was under the impression though that LDS also believe that we will be perfected in our eternal bodies? Maybe I missed the understanding there though. Correct me if so.

We do believe that God too is progressing, but He is perfect because of this. He, like us, is eternally progressing in glory.

Seems to go with my belief above as to the understanding of perfection but again, maybe I misunderstand your stance on men compared to God.

Once again, when we glorify Him, He progresses in that sense. Otherwise, there would be a limit on His glory; it would be as high as it can be, and it can't increase anymore.

I understand what you're saying here, but this would limit the definition of omniscience. Yes, you are speaking on the emotional level and us glorifying him, but what glory does God truly need from us? Does he not already know our every thoughts?

That is certainly not perfection at all. And if God's glory cannot increase, then we would be unable to glorify Him, which would render Him unable to share His glory with us, which in turn cause Him to cease being God. Obviously, though, God is God, and His work and all of His creations, His children, are what glorify Him. Sharing His glory with us,allowing us to become like Him, is what glorifies Him: "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39) — the most important sentence ever written in my opinion.

I guess the Glory of God increasing depends on what we're talking about. If it's actual growth in his size or presence, I don't know... But if speaking about his understanding or appreciation for us.. I think that's a no because he already knows.. we can't surprise him.. that's like knowing what you got for christmas ahead of time then saying you were surprised when you opened the gift... when you first found out you may have been, but once you knew, you weren't really surprised, you were just happy with it, same as when it first occurred, it didn't increase..

Also, "progress" and "change" are completely different. Saying that God is unchanging but that He also progresses in glory is not a contradiction.

Definitely. I understand what you mean there.

[altersteve]

Perhaps this is true. Perhaps you are always learning, wouldn't that then mean that 100% knowledge is unattainable? Therefore, we would never be perfected in knowledge. Same for any other area. We would not be perfected. Maybe I'm bringing my own view in on this though. I was under the impression though that LDS also believe that we will be perfected in our eternal bodies? Maybe I missed the understanding there though. Correct me if so.

You are correct that we believe that we will be perfected, but that's a progress, it doesn't happen instantaneously. For us, having a "perfect" knowledge is something that takes a long time. Perhaps there will come a time when we will have a perfect knowledge of all things, I don't know. But I'm mainly talking about "progression" in an entirely spiritual, emotional sense. Becoming "like God" is more than just obtaining all knowledge and all power. It's a very personal thing for each of us, a journey that begins with coming to "know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (John 17:3; see below).

Seems to go with my belief above as to the understanding of perfection but again, maybe I misunderstand your stance on men compared to God.

You do seem to be misunderstanding the LDS position. To a Latter-day Saint, the relationship between God and man is deeply personal. God is literally our Father and we are literally His children, and we are to approach Him as such. He is not of our species, but we are of His, and that is something that we take to heart. God is not completely different from us. We are, as I said, His children in every sense of the word. He loves us more than we could ever imagine. It is this relationship that the personal nature of LDS worship stems from and points to. It comes from knowing not only that Heavenly Father is our Father and that Jesus Christ is our Savior, but from truly knowing God as He is: to know Heavenly Father as our Father, and to know Jesus Christ as our Savior. John 17:3 is where I learned this, and it's something that I've always emphasized and felt strongly about.

I understand what you're saying here, but this would limit the definition of omniscience. Yes, you are speaking on the emotional level and us glorifying him, but what glory does God truly need from us? Does he not already know our every thoughts?

God doesn't "need" any glory from us at all. It is simply that we glorify Him through faith and obedience to His commandments, and He glorifies us in return through His blessings. This doesn't limit His omniscience in any way.

I guess the Glory of God increasing depends on what we're talking about. If it's actual growth in his size or presence, I don't know... But if speaking about his understanding or appreciation for us.. I think that's a no because he already knows.. we can't surprise him.. that's like knowing what you got for christmas ahead of time then saying you were surprised when you opened the gift... when you first found out you may have been, but once you knew, you weren't really surprised, you were just happy with it, same as when it first occurred, it didn't increase..

By "glory of God," I don't mean His size or presence, or His understanding or appreciation of us. I mean exactly what I say: His glory, His majesty. For example, when a father holds his son or daughter for the first time (I'm not a father, so I'm only saying this based on what my father and other people's fathers have said), his "glory" increases, and when he sees that child grow and progress through life, his "glory," the eternal joy of being a father, increases even more. I hope this makes sense, because I'm not sure how else to explain it.

Edited October 3, 2011 by altersteve

[altersteve]

Steve,

Okay, I will simply hold you to the same standard you say you expect me to use. CFR that it is official LDS doctrine that we will never be as glorious as our Heavenly Father.

I think it's pretty clear. Our doctrine of eternal progression says it pretty well, I think, as I've already tried to explain.

[Rob Bowman]

Steve,

A CFR is a call for a reference. Please provide a reference qualifying as official LDS doctrine according to your own standard that actually teaches that the exalted will never have as much glory as Heavenly Father.

I think it's pretty clear. Our doctrine of eternal progression says it pretty well, I think, as I've already tried to explain.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Rob Bowman

[altersteve]

Steve,

A CFR is a call for a reference. Please provide a reference qualifying as official LDS doctrine according to your own standard that actually teaches that the exalted will never have as much glory as Heavenly Father.

Like I said, it's obvious what the Church teaches on this matter. The scriptures say that all glory is given to the Father, and that He shares that glory with those who are perfected through Christ. You are free to interpret this through your critical, biased viewpoint, but the idea that we can be as glorious as our Heavenly Father has no place in LDS thought or worship. The glory of God is infinitely above anything we could ever hope to achieve. He has always been and will always be our God and Father, and we will always worship Him as such. This has always been a fundamental principle of the gospel. If we were able to be as glorious as He, that would mean that we would cease giving Him the glory; in other words, we would stop worshiping Him. Then eternal progression is impossible and He would no longer be the God of gods — our God. The Church is clear about this, and this is not in contradiction with what is stated in Gospel Principles anyway. I know you're going to disagree, but God having "all glory" does not mean that He cannot be glorified. He may share that glory with us, but we will always give it back to Him.

As far as I know, a Church leader has not explicitly stated, "We will never have as much glory as Heavenly Father," but that shouldn't matter. Their other teachings about God's infinite glory should make that very clear regardless.

Edited October 3, 2011 by altersteve

[volgadon]

GO generally teach that deification means becoming god in all but his essence. Do Evangelicals believe that?

The Orthodox also teach that man becomes God to the extent that Jesus became man. That formulation comes from this Russian site. http://azbyka.ru/dictionary/14/obozhenie-all.shtml

[KevinG]

DaddyG,

You asked:

The classic evangelical answer to your question is found in the Westminster Catechism: "to glorify God and enjoy him forever."

Uh huh. And how do we Glorify God who is already exalted? That is my question.

[KevinG]

http://lds.org/ensign/1984/11/the-pattern-of-our-parentage?lang=eng&query=god+father

The Apostle Boyd K Packer on the pattern of our parentage. It contains some authoratative writings on the LDS idea of deification and how we will become like our Father in Heaven.

This does not negate the fact that God the Father will always be our Father and as we are glorified, He is increased in glory.

http://lds.org/ensign/2002/04/the-father-and-the-son?lang=eng&query=Father+glorified+through+children

We never claim we will become greater than the Father who is perfect. That is an anti-Mormon canard - if I had more time I'd look for a refutation of it but it may simply be the charge is so silly that it has not deserved that much attention.

[Rob Bowman]

Steve,

A CFR is a call for a reference. Saying that it's "obvious" is not an adequate response to a CFR.

If "the idea that we can be as glorious as our Heavenly Father has no place in LDS thought or worship," how did it get in Gospel Principles? Forget about whether GP is "official" or not; it was produced by Mormons, wasn't it? They were thinking when they wrote it, weren't they? So evidently it does have a place in LDS thought.

Consider also the following statements (emphasis added):

"He is enthroned in the light, glory and power of truth. He has abided the truth, and is thereby exalted, and his power, light and glory are eternal. The Gospel and the Priesthood are the means he employs to save and exalt his obedient children to the possession with him of the same glory and power, to be crowned with crowns of glory, immortality and eternal lives." Brigham Young, JD 9:330.

"Man can possess the same glory as God." The Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, 3 (emphasis in original).

"These are the righteous who will be admitted into the highest glory. Their glory will be full; it will be like the glory of the Son of God; as the Apostle John has said, 'Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.' Their bodies will come forth from the grave fashioned like unto his glorious body, and in every respect they will inherit the same glory that the Son inherits, and hence they are one as the Father and Son are one." Orson Pratt, JD 2:370.

"The object of our earthly existence is that we may have a fulness of joy, and that we may become the sons and daughters of God, in the fullest sense of the word, being heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, to be kings and priests unto God, to inherit glory, dominion, exaltation, thrones and every power and attribute developed and possessed by our Heavenly Father." Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 95.

"All things will be given to us -- all power, all glory, all knowledge, even as our Father in heaven possesses it -- in due time, as we are capable of receiving them." Hyrum M. Smith, Conference Report, April 1902, 21-22.

Looks like what Gospel Principles says is quite representative of what LDS leaders have taught over the years.

Again, the CFR that I issued you has gone unanswered.

Like I said, it's obvious what the Church teaches on this matter. The scriptures say that all glory is given to the Father, and that He shares that glory with those who are perfected through Christ. You are free to interpret this through your critical, biased viewpoint, but the idea that we can be as glorious as our Heavenly Father has no place in LDS thought or worship. The glory of God is infinitely above anything we could ever hope to achieve. He has always been and will always be our God and Father, and we will always worship Him as such. This has always been a fundamental principle of the gospel. If we were able to be as glorious as He, that would mean that we would cease giving Him the glory; in other words, we would stop worshiping Him. Then eternal progression is impossible and He would no longer be the God of gods — our God. The Church is clear about this, and this is not in contradiction with what is stated in Gospel Principles anyway. I know you're going to disagree, but God having "all glory" does not mean that He cannot be glorified. He may share that glory with us, but we will always give it back to Him.

As far as I know, a Church leader has not explicitly stated, "We will never have as much glory as Heavenly Father," but that shouldn't matter. Their other teachings about God's infinite glory should make that very clear regardless.

[volgadon]

volgadon,

Apparently, you have no answer to my question. The fact is that the statement you quoted views the "worlds" that will be given to the righteous as gifts from God, not as creations by the righteous. And this leaves intact the classic Jewish and Christian distinction between the Creator and the creature.

I have answered you, which is not quite the same as you disliking the answer. The statement is not concerned with the question of whether or not God was giving an already prepared world. Indeed, the very verb "to give in inheritance" would bring up associations with the book of Joshua, where the receiving of inheritances involved an active effort on the part of "creature" (to use a term which really didn't have a strict counterpart in Judaism). There is also the matter of purity. A case can be made for human involvement. I'm not going to press it. The point of tbhe quote is that God gives men worlds to rule. That is certainly as significant a part of LDS deification as creating planets.

That isn't the issue. I never suggested you believed any such thing. However, your theology does appear to claim that you will become equal to God in nature, power, glory, and works.

Yet the only way that we could become equal to God in nature, power, glory, and works is because he gave us that. So obviously this equality is more nuanced than you would have it.

Let me ask you this. Is the Jewish idea that God will give righteous men their own planets to rule over ancient or medieval in its theology?

[KevinG]

Regarding LDS believing that they will have as much glory as the Father... Some more references.

I might quibble a bit with altersteves quote "We will never have as much glory as Heavenly Father" but only in the sense that God has promised us a fullness of His blessings. What we don't preach, teach or believe is that we would ever surpass God the Father in glory. I seriously doubt we would ever even "catch up" in any sense. We certainly don't believe we will surpass God in glory.

This would be impossible no matter how exalted we become through Christ's atonement. Because the very act of our glorification glorifies the Father further.

From the very authoratative Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints...

D&C 132:63 "...for they [wives] are given unto him to ^amultiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be ^bglorified."

We glorify God by accepting the atonement of Christ adn returning to our Father in Heaven.

Moses 1:39 "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

There is authoratative reference from our scriptures that our exaltation glorifies the Father. So as we progress and obtain what He has, or become joint heirs with Christ, he continues to be increased. This is of course as natural as any parent glorying in their own children growing into adulthood.

Quite simple as we increase we increase the Father's glory. Therefore our exaltation is His further glory. We will therefore never surpass our Father in Heaven no matter how much of His attributes we gain.

The Bible supports this concept of the Father being glorified in His children. As we read in John 17 the Son glorified the Father through our atonement. We glorify God by accepting the atonement and becoming one with God.

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy ^aSon, that thy Son also may ^bglorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him ^apower over all flesh, that he should give ^beternal life to as many as thou hast ^cgiven him.

3 And this is ^alife ^beternal, that they might ^cknow thee the only true ^dGod, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast ^esent.

4 I have ^aglorified thee on the earth: I have ^bfinished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the ^aglory which I had with thee ^bbefore the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me ^aout of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast ^agiven me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the ^awords which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I ^bcame out from thee, and they have ^cbelieved that thou didst send me.

9 I ^apray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which ^bthou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the ^aworld, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be ^bone, as we are.