For Those Who Wonder How A Deviant Behavior Becomes Acceptable

[frankenstein]

It seems to me that Daniel2 first response in this thread was essentially about "thought police", and it is well documented the disdain, abhorrence, and everlasting utter contempt many here have for "thought police"; Should someone be punished for thoughts which have no action?

[thesometimesaint]

frankenstein:

In this world by us mere mortals? NO! What God does, I'll leave up to God.

[ldsfaqs]

ldsfaqs:

The age of consent is actually going up.

Depends on what you are talking about.

Yes, I'm aware that for "marriage" for example that society has raised it from 13 to now 18 or 16 in certain places etc., and I know that for other things over the many years the "age of consent" for different things has been raised. That's not the point.

The point is, in being familiar with the "trends" in sociology and society etc. it is clear that standards are wanting to change by going backwards, not in a better way, but in a more immoral way.

Yes, the battle between good and evil, moral and immoral is still occurring, and good is still winning in many respects, but that doesn't change the way the winds are blowing. It is clear that moral standards are being no longer considered moral standards, but relative to choices, to rights. Children for example already have many "rights" they didn't have before due to political correctness and a lack of moral standards and requirements of youth. Yesterday, if you did something wrong in school, you got punished by your teacher and your parents. Today, you are punished by neither, and if any punishment occurs by the school, parents often go after the school, rather than the child.

In other words, standards are changing. And in the professional fields, there is a "normalizing" that is occurring, going backwards in standards and accountability. The "age of consent" is simply one of the standards that are being challenged everywhere by many in the Professional fields.

[Daniel2]

Just saw this article today, and it made me think of this thread:

Broadway actor who had teen sex drops Calif. show

SAN DIEGO (AP) — Broadway actor James Barbour is leaving a San Diego production of "The Rocky Horror Show" days after it was revealed that he had sexual contact with a 15-year-old girl.

On his Facebook page, the 45-year-old actor says he's leaving because of unexpected issues with his wife's pregnancy. She's expecting their second child in October.

Barbour was to play the lead in the "Rocky Horror" musical, which opens next month at the Old Globe theater. No replacement has been cast.

After Barbour's hiring was announced last week, San Diego news outlets reported that in 2008 he pleaded guilty to two misdemeanor counts of endangering the welfare of a child. Barbour acknowledged he had sexual contact with a 15-year-old he met in 2001 during his Broadway run in "Jane Eyre."

[ERayR]

It seems to me that Daniel2 first response in this thread was essentially about "thought police", and it is well documented the disdain, abhorrence, and everlasting utter contempt many here have for "thought police"; Should someone be punished for thoughts which have no action?

Every action begins with thought. When that thought becomes an action that is wrong then that thought/action should be censored. For someone to think about sexual contact with children while in my view is not OK it will not be punished. The problem is that someone will invarably turn those thoughts into actions. At this point the repercussions should be severe enough to deter any further action.

[thesometimesaint]

ERayR:

As every single one of us has at one time or another had an inappropraite thought. Whom is going to be the one to administer the consequences of thought?

I'll leave my actions up to man to judge, and leave my thoughts up to God to judge.

[KevinG]

A concerted effort to change the APA definitions of what is normal behavior is beyond thought. Opposition to declaring pedophelia a normal human drive is not about being "thought police".

[Daniel2]

Every action begins with thought. When that thought becomes an action that is wrong then that thought/action should be censored. For someone to think about sexual contact with children while in my view is not OK it will not be punished. The problem is that someone will invarably turn those thoughts into actions. At this point the repercussions should be severe enough to deter any further action.

Well said, ERayR.

Daniel2

[Daniel2]

A concerted effort to change the APA definitions of what is normal behavior is beyond thought. Opposition to declaring pedophelia a normal human drive is not about being "thought police".

Thankfully, the APA agrees with opposing pedophilic behaviors of any kind, nor does it classify such behaviors as "normal."

I agree that the actions of this fringe group of so-called "mental health professionals" should be "beyond thought" and opposed at all levels.

Daniel2

[Daniel2]

Problem is Daniel2..... is that society is "normalizing" what was once abnormal.

You may be offended, you may think it won't happen with Pedophilia, but in time the "age of consent" is going to be lowered.

The Psyco babblers already consider in many cases the age of consent to be to high, wanting to lower it to 16 even 14.

After all, in the olden days, if people could get married at 14, then why not be able to have "consensual sex" with an adult?

We know 12-13 is usually when children start having sex. The Psyco babblers will one day think THAT is the proper age of consent for sexual contact with anyone the person freely wants. After all, they already do it, thus they are "old enough to choose".

While I believe marriage is a different matter in the society in question, clearly the "professionals" are moving to normalize all deviant behavior, and that includes pedophilia.

You already see women teachers not punished the same as men teachers when they have sexual contact with their students.

Normalizing homosexuality is just another step in the notch. You don't think it's wrong, we do.

You think pedophilia is wrong now, but in a 100 years those like you won't. After all, they want their "rights" too.

I haven't seen the age of consent being lowered. Can you quote some statistics to help me understand why you feel that is the case?

A couple of worthwhile links:

Age of Consent Laws 2010

Do you have any evidence that a majority of mental health professionals are "moving to normalize all deviant behavior, including pedophilia"?

I support consensual (adult) expressions of heterosexuality. By the same token and rationale, I support consensual (adult) expressions of homosexuality.

While I understand that you may support the former, but not the later, and find it morally wrong to support the latter, I do not believe you can make the case that in 100 years, those that support consensual (adult) sexual behaviors (whether same-sex or opposite-sex) will eventually support expressions of pedophilia.

While I understand you find both homosexuality and pedophilia to be immoral, while simultaneously finding heterosexuality to be moral (in the bonds of matrimony), the vast majority of those of us who support homosexuality do not view a connection to encouraging or accepting pedophilia. Pedophilia and homosexuality are as unrelated to each other, in our view, as I presume you believe that heterosexuality and pedophilia are unrelated to each other.

Best,

Daniel2

[ERayR]

ERayR:

As every single one of us has at one time or another had an inappropraite thought. Whom is going to be the one to administer the consequences of thought?

I'll leave my actions up to man to judge, and leave my thoughts up to God to judge.

If you will reread what I wrote you will see I was in no way advocating thought police but was instead advocating penalties for the results of those thoughts (or in other words actions) severe enough to be a serious deterrent.

[ldsfaqs]

I haven't seen the age of consent being lowered. Can you quote some statistics to help me understand why you feel that is the case?

A couple of worthwhile links:

Age of Consent Laws 2010

Do you have any evidence that a majority of mental health professionals are "moving to normalize all deviant behavior, including pedophilia"?

Never said it was a majority or even a major movement. I know it's only a fringe movement at the moment. What I'm saying is that the same trends are being seen with Pedophilia which occurred with Homosexuality in the Professional community. I'm saying that in a 100 years if the end hasn't occurred, and if we keep going down this slope which seems to be accelerating, that pedophilia will most certainly be much more acceptable, maybe with an age limit, such as 16 or 14, etc., but it will likely occur. But, even if it doesn't, the thing is it did occur with homosexuality. An entirely abnormal and immoral behavior is now normalized in public, and not only normalized but promoted. The British TV show "Torchwood" blatantly promotes Homosexual relationship and sexual activities and nudity on the show. A "mainstream" show, is simply amazing to me. In a few years U.S. shows will be doing the same. They already are, but to the lesser extreme. I had to force myself to stop watching the show because of this, even though I like Dr. Who and the Torchwood spin-off. It's just completely unacceptable. This new season they even went further.

I support consensual (adult) expressions of heterosexuality. By the same token and rationale, I support consensual (adult) expressions of homosexuality.

I don't "support" either. The first I only support in marriage, and the second I cannot support. Obviously I can't and won't "disallow" it, that is peoples free agency, but I also think it's wrong the gay "movement and agenda", especially when it concerns the Church, trying to change Church doctrine, deceiving people with their lies of the issue, etc. I believe people who engage in abnormality should keep their "private" behaviors private. The sexualizing of society in all respects, including homosexuality is completely immoral and wrong.

While I understand that you may support the former, but not the later, and find it morally wrong to support the latter, I do not believe you can make the case that in 100 years, those that support consensual (adult) sexual behaviors (whether same-sex or opposite-sex) will eventually support expressions of pedophilia.

I think there is a case for it. Obviously, I doubt "young" pedophilia will ever be tolerated, but most certainly the "age" will be lowered. After all, older children already make "adult" decisions, which will be the rational in the professional community. It may not be "classified" as Pedophilia or the supporting thereof, it will just be a lowering of the standard, and the Pedophiles will be fully free in their actions with no consequences (at least up to the age limit).

But, I will acknowledge that depending on how immoral society becomes, there may still be enough push-back, and those who think that those who are 18 out of high school are the ones who can still choose. In fact, I think the way the school system is set up is really the actual "stop-gap" preventing these changes, because children in high school are still looked at as children because they are a part of that system. If external system controls such as that were not in place, I can most certainly see changes in the age of consent very quickly occurring, changes in how the Professionals identify the age of when people are able to choose for themselves. So, given all this, I'm not going to say that Pedophilia will become even close to as easily normalized as homosexuality, but, it still doesn't change the fact with the similarities.

While I understand you find both homosexuality and pedophilia to be immoral, while simultaneously finding heterosexuality to be moral (in the bonds of matrimony), the vast majority of those of us who support homosexuality do not view a connection to encouraging or accepting pedophilia. Pedophilia and homosexuality are as unrelated to each other, in our view, as I presume you believe that heterosexuality and pedophilia are unrelated to each other.

Best,

Daniel2

Yes, I know you believe that..... However, professionals who actually are familiar with homosexuals and pedophiles see the exact same patterns. They see the patterns of environment, the patterns of thought, the patterns of action, the patterns related to early childhood, etc. Obviously not everyone fits in the same box, but there are discernible patterns. One of the big ones is that Pedophiles and Homosexuals say and believe the same exact things. Most believe they were "born that way", that they were that way from their earliest childhood memory's. Most believe their behavior is about love, and not the hurting or the sexual gratification of and with another alone. Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of Pedophiles have no interest in hurting children, they like Homosexuals are simply "attracted" to that particular group and body type. In other words, there is no difference between the two of you psychologically speaking. The only difference is the issue of "adult" and well informed choice compared to a child which can still choose, but it's not an "adult" and mature choice, thus there is the perception and even reality of "abuse" in that lack of choice. Other than that, Homosexuals and Pedophiles are exactly in every single way the SAME..... You may not wish to hear that, but it's the truth.

It is my view that we ALL have our own "crosses" to bear. Just because your cross or my cross might be a very intimate and strong part of ourselves, doesn't mean we should ACT on those impulses. Just like any sin, there is right and wrong. Many sins we believe they are a strong part of ourselves, but that doesn't mean we should act on them. You need to understand, that I know what I'm talking about. Do you think you're the only one with a sexual related "cross", that seems every bit a "natural" part of yourself? Pedophiles feel the same way. However, good people, people who are wise, don't act on their sins and that which tempts them, no matter how much a part of them they are. And more importantly, such individuals have NO RIGHT to try and "change the rules".... To make such sin as actually a "civil right", and they further don't have a right to change the Church, to change God's Laws.

Again, Pedophiles want their "civil rights" just like you do..... again, you are no different than they, other than the "informed consent" part.

And again, I understand..... The intimacy however of your "cross", doesn't change the fact that it's completely against the Law, God's Laws, and even natural law.

Gays often try to justify their actions by saying, well some "animals" do it. Problem with that is first human beings are more than just animals, we have choice and agency. We can choose what we do and nourish in our thought and actions. Second, animals do certain actions based on instinct, not because they are actually homosexual. A dog humping your leg is instinct, not because he's actually gay.

[thesometimesaint]

ERayR:

Sorry that misread your statement. What I'm having a difficult time understanding is the inevidibility of thoughts turning to actions. I my way of experience is that we all have many inappropriate thoughts, only a small minority of those thoughts ever turn into an action.

[ERayR]

ERayR:

Sorry that misread your statement. What I'm having a difficult time understanding is the inevidibility of thoughts turning to actions. I my way of experience is that we all have many inappropriate thoughts, only a small minority of those thoughts ever turn into an action.

All thoughts do not become actions. All actions, however, have been thoughts.

[thesometimesaint]

ERay:

Agreed.

[Daniel2]

Never said it was a majority or even a major movement. I know it's only a fringe movement at the moment. What I'm saying is that the same trends are being seen with Pedophilia which occurred with Homosexuality in the Professional community. I'm saying that in a 100 years if the end hasn't occurred, and if we keep going down this slope which seems to be accelerating, that pedophilia will most certainly be much more acceptable, maybe with an age limit, such as 16 or 14, etc., but it will likely occur. But, even if it doesn't, the thing is it did occur with homosexuality. An entirely abnormal and immoral behavior is now normalized in public, and not only normalized but promoted. The British TV show "Torchwood" blatantly promotes Homosexual relationship and sexual activities and nudity on the show. A "mainstream" show, is simply amazing to me. In a few years U.S. shows will be doing the same. They already are, but to the lesser extreme. I had to force myself to stop watching the show because of this, even though I like Dr. Who and the Torchwood spin-off. It's just completely unacceptable. This new season they even went further.

While some people are concerned about some parrallels of the same-sex civil rights vs. fringe elements of the those that support pedophilia, the defining differene of consent is a large distingushing factor that makes any sort of "pedophilic movement" vastly different than any of the other civil rights movements that it may shadow in paltry other similarities. One could make the case that this pedophile fringe group "is showing some of the same trends" that mirror the racial equality movement, or the gender equality movment, or the religious equality movement, etc. However, while similarities between different movements have varying degrees of potence, each civil rights movement succeeds or fails on the merits of what has historically distinguised it from all others before it. Despite any similiarities, one would be mistaken to imply any blame for the beginnings of this alleged fringe pedophilic movment on those that championed the Protestant Reformation, the Puritanical movement across the Atlantic, the women's sufferage movement, racial desegrigation and integration, civil rights for all races, etc. In the same way, it would be inaccurate to blame gays, lesbians, or the civil marriage equality movement for any fringe attempts to advance the rights of pedophilic relationships. The age of consent has historically been rising as science, medicine, psychology, and psychiatry have consistently underscored the dammage (physical, mental, emotional) that occurs which children, who's bodies aren't yet developed enough to engage in sexual behaviors, are forced to so do.

Any pedophilic movment also has the unique aspect that, given time, those underage citizens who are supposedly the objects of pedophiles affections will grow and mature into adults, and having attained the age of consent, are then legally free to pursue a relationship (including civil marriage and consensual sexual behaviors) with the person they may claim to love. In fact, even from prison, during the course of serving her own sentance for pedophilia, Mary Kay Latournau was legally allowed to marry Vili Fualaau, the 13-year-old she was doing jail-time for having non-consensual, pedophilic sex with.

That the vicitims or even simply the objects of pedophile's affections, may eventually grow up and engage in a relationship of their choice is yet another distingusihing factor between it an same-sex civil rights, for example.

I don't "support" either. The first I only support in marriage, and the second I cannot support. Obviously I can't and won't "disallow" it, that is peoples free agency, but I also think it's wrong the gay "movement and agenda", especially when it concerns the Church, trying to change Church doctrine, deceiving people with their lies of the issue, etc. I believe people who engage in abnormality should keep their "private" behaviors private. The sexualizing of society in all respects, including homosexuality is completely immoral and wrong.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to split hairs over the use of the term "support consensual expressions of heterosexuality." I would presume that everyone supports that. Anytime you respond affirmatively to a wedding invitation, smile fondly at a couple holding hands in the park or walking a stroller, laugh or cry tears of joy at a touching romantic moment on stage, screen, or page, quote part of a love poem or sing along with a love-song, you're "supporting" consensual expressions of heterosexuality (some of which, btw, occur prior to marriage). Strange that you feel the need to deny that support and couch it only within the bonds of "marriage."

We certainly agree that it's wrong when anyone (in "the gay movement" or the "anti-gay movement") resorts to deceiving people with lies on the issue.

However, professionals who actually are familiar with homosexuals and pedophiles see the exact same patterns. They see the patterns of environment, the patterns of thought, the patterns of action, the patterns related to early childhood, etc. Obviously not everyone fits in the same box, but there are discernible patterns. One of the big ones is that Pedophiles and Homosexuals say and believe the same exact things. Most believe they were "born that way", that they were that way from their earliest childhood memory's. Most believe their behavior is about love, and not the hurting or the sexual gratification of and with another alone. Contrary to popular belief, the vast majority of Pedophiles have no interest in hurting children, they like Homosexuals are simply "attracted" to that particular group and body type. In other words, there is no difference between the two of you psychologically speaking. The only difference is the issue of "adult" and well informed choice compared to a child which can still choose, but it's not an "adult" and mature choice, thus there is the perception and even reality of "abuse" in that lack of choice. Other than that, Homosexuals and Pedophiles are exactly in every single way the SAME..... You may not wish to hear that, but it's the truth.

It is my view that we ALL have our own "crosses" to bear. Just because your cross or my cross might be a very intimate and strong part of ourselves, doesn't mean we should ACT on those impulses. Just like any sin, there is right and wrong. Many sins we believe they are a strong part of ourselves, but that doesn't mean we should act on them. You need to understand, that I know what I'm talking about. Do you think you're the only one with a sexual related "cross", that seems every bit a "natural" part of yourself? Pedophiles feel the same way. However, good people, people who are wise, don't act on their sins and that which tempts them, no matter how much a part of them they are. And more importantly, such individuals have NO RIGHT to try and "change the rules".... To make such sin as actually a "civil right", and they further don't have a right to change the Church, to change God's Laws.

Again, Pedophiles want their "civil rights" just like you do..... again, you are no different than they, other than the "informed consent" part.

And again, I understand..... The intimacy however of your "cross", doesn't change the fact that it's completely against the Law, God's Laws, and even natural law.

Gays often try to justify their actions by saying, well some "animals" do it. Problem with that is first human beings are more than just animals, we have choice and agency. We can choose what we do and nourish in our thought and actions. Second, animals do certain actions based on instinct, not because they are actually homosexual. A dog humping your leg is instinct, not because he's actually gay.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "professionals who actually are familiar with homosexuals and pedophiles see the exact same patterns. They see the patterns of environment, the patterns of thought, the patterns of action, the patterns related to early childhood, etc. Obviously not everyone fits in the same box, but there are discernible patterns. One of the big ones is that Pedophiles and Homosexuals say and believe the same exact things." It's unclear to me what your point is, here. Do you mean to suggest that you believe professionals are saying that pedophilia and homosexuality are caused by similar biological triggers? Or environmental triggers? Or are you saying that you believe professionals familiar with the pro-gay civil rights movement are saying that this fringe group of pro-pedophilic individuals are using the same political tactics to try to become more mainstream?

The other paragraphs here are not something I've touched on or care to touch on, as they involve your religious belief, which is yours to hold, and in which I support you, even though I disagree.

Daniel2