Practical Guide To The End Times

[Franktalk]

According to Eusebius, Christians fled to Pella, which is not far from Beit-Shean on the other side of the Jordan. It is to the far north of Petra.

While it is true that the people who fled from Jerusalem did go all over the place I do believe that they were told to go to Petra. Not directly but as a foreshadow of things to come. In Isaiah 63 we have a few comments from people who are seeing Christ come to them after He has finished with the wine press. They say it looks like He is coming from Bozrah. So these people who fled during the 70th week of Daniel that were in Judea went somewhere that they could see the Messiah walk from Bozrah towards them. Now we also know that the army that is thrown into the wine press is gathered in the valley of Jezreel, city of Megiddo, or commonly known as the gathering for the battle of Armageddon. We also know that 1600 furlongs are mentioned as well. The ancient length of a furlong was between 128 M to 153.6 M. So this makes 1600 furlongs between 204.8 km to 245 km. A distance is never mentioned in scripture without a reason. So if we look at a map and find Megiddo then go by Bozrah and stop when we reach 240 km we are in Petra. So while it may be true that some Christians did go to Pella I think some went to Petra where they were supposed to go as a foreshadow of a future event. So while your historian may be telling us what he knew I will stick to scripture as my reference.

[Franktalk]

You've never been to Ammunition Hill or the Damascus Gate, I take it. Jordan also bombarded the western city quite heavily.

Think big picture.

Neither Sheba, Dedan, nor Tarshish were in the territory of the modern Kingdom of Transjordan.

Using the close descendants of Noah we locate the lands of Sheba and Dedan. Where do you think those lands are?

[jo1952]

Frank talk, thanks for explaining your views. However, I'd like you to clarify what faith you are. I'm pretty sure you are not LDS because this doesn't sound like an LDS view of the Last days. Are you Evangelical?

I agree with Rameumptum, this is a very literal reading of Revelation and though some LDS interpretations are on the literal side (the two prophets lying in the street), LDS are more flexible and not so certain of how John's prophecies will be ultimately fulfilled. We don't believe in a 'Rapture' and then tribulation. We believe there is no escaping the difficulties of the last days leading up to the second coming of the Savior--except in the warning to 'stand in Holy Places' and that Zion will be a refuge. Even so, the righteous will not be spared from suffering.

An Exception among LDS is Robert Young. I've read his books as well and his is more of a literalist interpretation. I won't say I felt a dark spirit, but I felt many of his claims were not correct.

Hi Alter Idem:

Actually, it is Paul who teaches about what is called the Rapture by Orthodox Christians; however, he calls it being "caught up":

1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Then, John refers to those who descend in the City of the New Jerusalem. I would offer, that those who are "caught up" and then descend in the New Jerusalem are the people referred to as the Bride of Christ:

Revelation 21:9-10

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Joseph Smith teaches us about those whom Christ will bring down with Him:

D&C 76:63

These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.

More specifically, Joseph Smith says this:

D&C 76:102

Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.

This indicates to me that the church of the Firstborn WILL be "caught up" into the cloud - just like Paul taught.

It is clear to me that, inasmuch as we use both the Bible and the D&C as canon, that the LDS certainly DO have scripture which supports a "Rapture". I don't think there are any denominations of believers who know what this is going to look like, including us. I believe the point Franktalk is trying to make is that perhaps we should be more concerned with Revelation so that we are prepared to recognize what is happening. We don't want to be caught like the Jews were when they missed prophecy being fulfilled the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem riding the donkey's colt. There were serious consequences for the Jews missing "their day". There will be serious consequences for those who do not understand the prophesies concerning the end times.

Now, the Church is ALWAYS teaching us to seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost - something which is fairly foreign to most other denominations. However, this does not guaranty that all Church members have that close relationship with the Holy Ghost. Just because we are a member of the Church is not a guaranty that we will not be fooled by the miracles performed during the end times.

I would also like to add this thought. Joseph taught us that more and more would be revealed in these latter days. I believe that he was speaking not only about brand new revelations which would be given through latter-day prophets; but also that the scriptures we have had from ancient times will have their meanings made clear to us. The book of Daniel comes to mind:

Daniel 12:8-9 (emphasis added)

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Best regards,

jo

Edited August 5, 2011 by jo1952

[Franktalk]

You mentioned that we will be & are held accountable for knowing & properly understanding scripture.

Would you expand on that?

Who holds us accountable & for what purpose? Isn't God love? Why would LOVE be so cruel as to punish those who are illiterate or who have been taught incorrect scriptural interpretations?

What a great question. I think we all understand a commandment of God when presented as a rule or law. Now step back and tell yourself how you know what the rules are? How did you come to understand them? Did you not hear them being talked about by others and then reading them yourself. Did you not have to correctly understand what they were? If I say I interpret scripture so it is fine to take innocent blood am I going to be held accountable for my incorrect interpretation? God knows our heart and knows if we are capable to learning scripture. But He also knows if we take the time to read His scriptures and to study them. From His perspective is a prophecy different than a law? I think that we are to hold both as our guide. Why give us a Prophet if we ignore prophecy?

God does love us but He wants us to learn. Some learn and others don't. Some put out the effort and others don't. Our God is a God of justice. It is not cruel to receive a judgment on earth. I would prefer a correction here and then receive the mercy of God. The Bible is full of examples of correction. Some for the law and some for failing to know scripture when it was available for us and we chose not to take the Word of God serious.

[jo1952]

Frank,

I believe it's good to prepare for the worst & hope for the best.

I believe the scriptures are not a fortune teller, nor a history book, but a spiritual guide to the kingdom of God within & among us.

They have the most good when we "liken the scripture to us" not use them to fear... since God is love & perfect love casteth out fear.

I'm concerned that too much fear of the "last days" hoopla will be a self-fufilling prophesy because belief is powerful, especially when many believe it!

Rapture is: A feeling of intense pleasure... hopefully we can all feel that at times!

Evil Spirits are those spirits we resonate with... when we're angry or joyful, we attract & are attracted by those who feel similarly, in body or spirit.

Christ is Divinity - God - goodness... the gospel, good news... truth. Anybody who is against truth is anti-Christ in a way (which would include us all to an extent).

Prophets are those who prophesy, & I think also those who lead a group in a positive direction... ie Moses, Joseph Smith, Martin Luther King...

I'm not sure about "abomination of desolation" - but I think it's similar to the symbolism of Jesus being cruicified between 2 thieves... one aknowledged his fault & Jesus said he'd be with him in paradise. The other (who may represent the abomination of desolation & anti-christ) denied wrong-doing & repremanded Jesus for not saving them physically.

The chaos written about may happen... earthquakes, wars & rumours of wars, famines, pestilences... but when have they not happened? We're just more aware these days because we have media that makes us more globally aware.

Judgement, as Joseph Smith explained, "A man is his own tormentor and his own condemner."

War with God is like what Jacob experienced... when he wrestled with God & his name was changed from Jacob (meaning "persevere with God") to Israel (meaning, "God contended" or prince of God). -Genesis 32

Hi HeatherAnn!

I believe that each of us will experience the events described in the Book of Revelation in our own personal physical and spiritual journey. Likewise, I believe the earth will literally, physically experience those events. For instance, I see the Flood as the physical baptism of the earth by water. In the end times, the earth will be baptized by "fire", at which time it will complete its steps of renewal and rebirth. Therefore, since the time of Adam and Eve, mankind goes through the temporal pattern which teaches us those things we need to understand spiritually. I do believe, though, that there is an allotted time which has been designated to our earth. Inevitably, this allotted time will end; and "time" as we know it now, will no longer exist because we, as well as the earth, will re-enter the spiritual realm which we have been a part of all along.

Those who love God and who are truly being guided by the Holy Ghost should not fear; this is a test of their faith and learning experience while in the flesh. However, we are still influenced by the world as long as we are in our physical body. From moment to moment we can change from serving God to serving Satan, back and forth; hopefully staying in God's camp longer and longer as our time on earth goes by.

There was a reason the Church needed to be Restored. That reason has not changed. Just as Paul taught his own brethren, the Jews, in Romans (not to be confused with when he was teaching the Gentiles), he mourned their blindness which prevented them from experiencing the joy which the knowledge of the Gospel brought to him. He knew their cups of joy could never overflow in the flesh as long as they were blind to Christ's True identity. Likewise, believers today want to share their joy with the entire world. We, in the Church, have that burning desire that all recognize that Jesus did restore His Church. We want others to experience that same joy. We do not claim to have all the Truth; in fact, we believe that Truth is everywhere, and we seek for it everywhere - not just within the institution of the LDS Church.

I believe that part of that joy is making sure that all mankind, both inside and outside of the Church, are taught to recognize the signs of the times which the physical earth is going to experience in these latter days. The purpose? To teach and, perchance, to protect as many as we can from making the mistake of taking upon themselves the mark of the beast for which they will need to go through terrible punishment which will effect them eternally because they will not receive a higher Glory at their Judgment. Those who suffer for righteousness sake, or are martyred, OTOH, will only receive a physical suffering, and will be rewarded spiritually.

It will not be difficult to understand that the source of all miracles come from the Father. However, Satan will be claiming credit and wanting allegiance from the people; he will not want to give glory to Father, nor will he want people to believe in and accept Christ as their Redeemer. Since the same types of miracles will be performed as were performed by Jesus and the Apostles, the line can easily become fuzzy and even the Elect can be fooled if they are not prepared.

Love,

jo

[volgadon]

Think big picture.

Meaning: disregard the facts if they get in the way. I've met people who were involved in the fight for Jerusalem, the Jordanians didn't give up easily.

Using the close descendants of Noah we locate the lands of Sheba and Dedan. Where do you think those lands are?

Southern and Northern Arabia, respectively.

[Deborah]

What we need to do is listen to the living prophet to know where our concerns should be. To focus too much on the past prophets can lead one down wrong paths. All prophecy is contingent on many factors. When the living Prophet and Apostles start warning about desolations then we need to worry. As it is they have been giving us warnings and telling us to get our temporal and spiritual houses in order and warning about the hard times ahead of us. If we do what we have been warned to do then we need not be overly concerned about dire warnings, which in any case may apply to the world rather than the Lord's house, just as the plagues in Egypt passed over the house of Israel.

[Franktalk]

Meaning: disregard the facts if they get in the way. I've met people who were involved in the fight for Jerusalem, the Jordanians didn't give up easily.

I have no intention of taking away the hard struggle and battles that were fought by many. But Jerusalem was not in rubble when reclaimed by the Jews.

Southern and Northern Arabia, respectively.

Dedan is not clear to me but in a general sense it is by the current Jordan. Here is a link to an ancient map.

http://nabataea.net/generalmap.html

and some more reading but it also is unclear

http://focusonjerusalem.com/TheMysteryofShebaandDedan.htm

[jo1952]

What we need to do is listen to the living prophet to know where our concerns should be. To focus too much on the past prophets can lead one down wrong paths. All prophecy is contingent on many factors. When the living Prophet and Apostles start warning about desolations then we need to worry. As it is they have been giving us warnings and telling us to get our temporal and spiritual houses in order and warning about the hard times ahead of us. If we do what we have been warned to do then we need not be overly concerned about dire warnings, which in any case may apply to the world rather than the Lord's house, just as the plagues in Egypt passed over the house of Israel.

Hi Deborah:

In general I would agree. However, I do not think that anything our latter-day prophets have taught us supercede what the Prophets of old taught or prophesied. I do believe that today's prophets have continually guided us and warned us so that we can be prepared. However, not all members of the Church do what they are supposed to be doing; certainly none of us is perfect. I believe that, for the most part, those who are doing what they should will not have any problems. I would also include members of the Body of Christ who are not LDS - they also can be in-tuned with the Holy Ghost and not be fooled. You remarked about the example of the plagues passing over the house of Israel; that is because each household followed the "rules" which were given them in order that they would be protected. IOW, they did not sit idly by; they were proactive in their protection and the protection of other Jews.

So, I would offer that even a cursory understanding of Revelation would be better than hiding from Revelation because we think it is too difficult to understand, or because we have not been specifically told to study it. Actually, in general, we HAVE been taught to study it as it is part of our Standard Works. However, many people gloss over it, or ignore it because it is filled with so much symbolism that they deem it too difficult to follow. If we take at least some time to study it, then, at least when we begin to see the physical manifestations of what John taught, we can warn others (as I believe that those who truly are in-tuned with the Holy Ghost will not need to be fearful or concerned) who aren't as prepared as others will be.

For instance, if an inactive member of your family, or perhaps a neighbor, who has lost a loved one sees their loved one raised from the dead, it is imperative we warn them not to give allegiance to the adversary who will be claiming that he is god - even though we know that he is not. So we will need to teach others to discern who is taking credit for the miracles, and whether or not that being confesses that Jesus is the Christ, etc.

Love,

jo

Edited August 5, 2011 by jo1952

[Franktalk]

What we need to do is listen to the living prophet to know where our concerns should be. To focus too much on the past prophets can lead one down wrong paths. All prophecy is contingent on many factors. When the living Prophet and Apostles start warning about desolations then we need to worry. As it is they have been giving us warnings and telling us to get our temporal and spiritual houses in order and warning about the hard times ahead of us. If we do what we have been warned to do then we need not be overly concerned about dire warnings, which in any case may apply to the world rather than the Lord's house, just as the plagues in Egypt passed over the house of Israel.

This is a nice thought. And we could sit back and wait. But are we told to do that?

Luke 17:26-36

26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32Remember Lot's wife.

33Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

and

Matthew 25:28

28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

I have always seen the talents as the Gospel. Those who sit on it and wait have it taken away, or at least some of the gifts. This is a very strong message that many gloss over. Now in Luke it is explained that those who sat around were all destroyed. I think that in Luke it is saying that those who are active in their preparation will avoid the Tribulation, they are taken. Those who are not active, those who sit on their talent will be left to be destroyed. My message is to try and convince people that a warning is in the Bible and we should listen to that warning and act on it. But in this case knowledge is a key ingredient. Just as times in the past there have been many who had available to them a warning yet did not act. And of course in some cases they waited for their leaders. What if God has given us this message and He will not repeat it through His prophet? Are you willing to risk that? Has any prophet told us that everything we need comes from them? Have they not said to study the scriptures? Did they ever say just read the easy parts or the nice parts?

I firmly believe in a rapture. But many will not be taken. To those knowledge will be key to helping save as many as possible. I believe the message from scripture is that if you are active in God's eyes you will be taken to avoid the tribulation. And of course the other message is that many will be saved during the tribulation.

[volgadon]

While it is true that the people who fled from Jerusalem did go all over the place I do believe that they were told to go to Petra. Not directly but as a foreshadow of things to come. In Isaiah 63 we have a few comments from people who are seeing Christ come to them after He has finished with the wine press. They say it looks like He is coming from Bozrah.

So if he has wreaked massive destruction in Bosrah, that kind of scuppers your theory about Jordan staying out of the conflict.

So while your historian may be telling us what he knew I will stick to scripture as my reference.

I'd rather stick to someone who was only a few centuries removed from the events as opposed to a 21st c. American fundamentalist's understanding.

[jo1952]

So if he has wreaked massive destruction in Bosrah, that kind of scuppers your theory about Jordan staying out of the conflict.

I thought you were joking when you said this - but maybe you were serious. The area which is believed to be the site of the winepress is Jezreel near the city of Megiddo. Bosrah is between Jezreel and Petra. Therefore, when standing in Petra and seeing the man walking toward them wearing the red clothes (clothing drenched in the blood of the winepress) it certainly will appear that He is coming from Bosrah - as He will be traveling south. However, He will have been traveling south the entire trip from Jezreel past Bosrah and finally to Petra, which fits the length of the walk which is given in scripture. Therefore, your "scuppers" remark does not take in the entire picture of what the Bible teaches about this event.

Regards,

jo

[volgadon]

I thought you were joking when you said this - but maybe you were serious. The area which is believed to be the site of the winepress is Jezreel near the city of Megiddo.

Isaiah 63:1-4 clearly indicates that the winepress is trod in Edom, of which Bozrah is the capital. Petra, BTW, is in Edom.

Bosrah is between Jezreel and Petra.

Kind of. Odd way for blood to run.

Therefore, when standing in Petra and seeing the man walking toward them wearing the red clothes (clothing drenched in the blood of the winepress) it certainly will appear that He is coming from Bosrah - as He will be traveling south. However, He will have been traveling south the entire trip from Jezreel past Bosrah and finally to Petra, which fits the length of the walk which is given in scripture. Therefore, your "scuppers" remark does not take in the entire picture of what the Bible teaches about this event.

Regards,

jo

This assumption only works if we assume that Petra is where the people are, you have to twist Isaiah to match Revelation.

[Franktalk]

I'd rather stick to someone who was only a few centuries removed from the events as opposed to a 21st c. American fundamentalist's understanding.

Many people do use a wide variety of historians to interpret scripture. I tend to stay away from that process. Most men have agendas and they work there way into their work. If we read many sources then we may have an accurate picture by weighing all of the opinions. But we find that historians that are linked to discoveries are only as good as the last discovery. For instance many historians used the missing artifacts of the Assyrian nation as proof that the Bible was just a story and there is no God. This went on for hundreds of years before the discovery of Nineveh. So historians are basically an opinion source based on partial information. I will not allow these kinds of opinions to influence my reading of the Word of God. I prefer to use scripture to unravel scripture. Let me show you what I mean.

There was a time when another massive army amassed in the valley Jezreel. Gideon was used by God to destroy the army. I think that this battle is a foreshadow of future events. In fact one of the leaders was killed by a winepress in Zeeb. Hard to tell exactly where that was but more than likely by the coast northwest of the valley. But the image one gets from the battle is that the Lord caused the army to kill itself. This also happens in the Magog invasion. So I will continue to use my interpretation of scripture because to me it makes Biblical sense. Not historian sense. I do see how you can read Isaiah and understand the winepress to be in Edom in Bozrah. Here we will just have to disagree. But don't you see it as odd that Jesus comes down to the valley Jezreel then tosses the army into a winepress in Bozrah to the southeast then goes north to Pella? I think the image from Gideon is a better template for the event.

[volgadon]

Many people do use a wide variety of historians to interpret scripture. I tend to stay away from that process.

It shows.

Most men have agendas and they work there way into their work.

Just like the apocalyptic fundamentalist evangelicals who have influenced the way you read scriptures.

If we read many sources then we may have an accurate picture by weighing all of the opinions. But we find that historians that are linked to discoveries are only as good as the last discovery.

If we read many sources we have a broader and more nuanced view. This is hardly a bad thing.

For instance many historians used the missing artifacts of the Assyrian nation as proof that the Bible was just a story and there is no God. This went on for hundreds of years before the discovery of Nineveh.

Not quite hundreds of years.

So historians are basically an opinion source based on partial information.

Don't leave yourself out.

I will not allow these kinds of opinions to influence my reading of the Word of God.

More's the pity.

I prefer to use scripture to unravel scripture. Let me show you what I mean.

Does "scripture to unravel scripture" mean that you intentionally disregard information in one if it doesn't match the other?

There was a time when another massive army amassed in the valley Jezreel. Gideon was used by God to destroy the army. I think that this battle is a foreshadow of future events.

A foreshadowing doesn't mean an exact carbon copy. If you read more on Gideon versus the Midianites you will see that a different kind of battle is being described in Revelation. Also, if it was a foreshadowing, then your assertion that Jordan would stay out of it is false, since the armies Gideon fought against were all from the territory of modern Jordan.

In fact one of the leaders was killed by a winepress in Zeeb.

You mean Zeeb was killed at the gath (either winepress or pit) which later bore his name. Gaths, BTW are a dime a dozen in Israel. Practically every village and town had them.

Hard to tell exactly where that was but more than likely by the coast northwest of the valley.

That is most likely where it did not occur, as a ford of the river Jordan is mentioned just prior to the killing.

But the image one gets from the battle is that the Lord caused the army to kill itself. This also happens in the Magog invasion. So I will continue to use my interpretation of scripture because to me it makes Biblical sense. Not historian sense

.

It doesn't make biblical sense either. The Bible states that the army of the Midianites panicked. Some killed each other, but a substantial ammount remained, which then had to be pursued.

I do see how you can read Isaiah and understand the winepress to be in Edom in Bozrah. Here we will just have to disagree.

Seeing as Isaiah explicitly identifies it as being in Edom, I'm glad you can see how I could come away with that impression.

But don't you see it as odd that Jesus comes down to the valley Jezreel then tosses the army into a winepress in Bozrah to the southeast then goes north to Pella?

I don't think that they are necessarily connected.

I think the image from Gideon is a better template for the event.

We disagree.

[Franktalk]

Not quite hundreds of years.

Nineveh was destroyed around 600 BC, it was discovered anew around 1860. So roughly 2500 years. But modern scholars really did not become anti-god until a few hundred years ago, so yes a few hundred years. I tell this to the missionaries so when someone asks about the cities mentioned in the BoM they can tell them that using Nineveh as our guide we have to wait a few more hundred years before someone will uncover the cities.

A foreshadowing doesn't mean an exact carbon copy. If you read more on Gideon versus the Midianites you will see that a different kind of battle is being described in Revelation. Also, if it was a foreshadowing, then your assertion that Jordan would stay out of it is false, since the armies Gideon fought against were all from the territory of modern Jordan.

I was thinking more on the line of massive army, in the valley of Jezreel, God gets involved. In a similar way we can look at what happened around 160 BC in the Holy of Holies. It is a foreshadow of an event that will happen midweek during the tribulation. Many of the details are different but it is a shadow none the less. Like the Passover of Moses is a shadow of the Crucifixion.

[volgadon]

Nineveh was destroyed around 600 BC, it was discovered anew around 1860.

Nineveh was excavated in the 1840s, the location though had been identified as early as the 12th c. by the Jewish traveller Benjamin of Tudela. Assyrian artifacts had been discoveredseveral years before the excavation of Nineveh, and the palace of Ashurbanipal was discovered in 1842, so your claim is not quite accurate.

So roughly 2500 years. But modern scholars really did not become anti-god until a few hundred years ago, so yes a few hundred years.

Not quite.

I tell this to the missionaries so when someone asks about the cities mentioned in the BoM they can tell them that using Nineveh as our guide we have to wait a few more hundred years before someone will uncover the cities.

I would brush up on the details.

I was thinking more on the line of massive army, in the valley of Jezreel, God gets involved. In a similar way we can look at what happened around 160 BC in the Holy of Holies. It is a foreshadow of an event that will happen midweek during the tribulation. Many of the details are different but it is a shadow none the less. Like the Passover of Moses is a shadow of the Crucifixion.

The Devil is in the details. You just admitted that the details may differ, yet you are trying to constrcut a detailed, precise blueprint for the future?

[volgadon]

I have no intention of taking away the hard struggle and battles that were fought by many. But Jerusalem was not in rubble when reclaimed by the Jews.

Being reduced to rubble is not the only criterion for a hard fight. The Jordanians put up very tough resistance as long as they could. THey also shelled the western city. In 1948 though the Jordanians did reduce to rubble a number of significant Jewish buildings.

Dedan is not clear to me but in a general sense it is by the current Jordan. Here is a link to an ancient map.

http://nabataea.net/generalmap.html

and some more reading but it also is unclear

http://focusonjerusalem.com/TheMysteryofShebaandDedan.htm

In a "general sense" makes absolutely no sense. Basically, this means that you can twist Revelation any way you like.

[Deborah]

However, not all members of the Church do what they are supposed to be doing; certainly none of us is perfect.

So, I would offer that even a cursory understanding of Revelation would be better than hiding from Revelation because we think it is too difficult to understand, or because we have not been specifically told to study it.

So you think that people who already aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing will study the Book of Revelation? Believe me it's much easier to just do what the living prophet says.

[Franktalk]

Nineveh was excavated in the 1840s, the location though had been identified as early as the 12th c. by the Jewish traveller Benjamin of Tudela. Assyrian artifacts had been discoveredseveral years before the excavation of Nineveh, and the palace of Ashurbanipal was discovered in 1842, so your claim is not quite accurate.

Thank you for pointing out that 1860 in your opinion is not around 1840.

The Devil is in the details. You just admitted that the details may differ, yet you are trying to constrcut a detailed, precise blueprint for the future?

I do form a view of prophecy by taking various parts of scripture and fitting them together. I realize that I may be wrong. The big point is to study scripture and try and uncover relationships. By constantly looking at prophecy we will be ready for the actual events even if we get some of the details wrong. Now some prophecy is very clear and people will be held accountable for that prophecy in the future. So as we examine future events we will have a mix of fuzzy and definite images. Many feel that because prophecy is somewhat fuzzy we can ignore it. They do so by their own choice and may pay a price for that decision.

Colossians 2:16-18

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

[Deborah]

This is a nice thought. And we could sit back and wait. But are we told to do that?

My message is to try and convince people that a warning is in the Bible and we should listen to that warning and act on it.

Did I say anything about sitting back and waiting. Heeding the living prophet in fact puts the onus on one becoming proactive in preparing himself and his family.

Why do you think it is your job to convince people of the Biblical warning? Are you the prophet? Do you think if they don't listen to the Prophet they will listen to you? What do you propose people do except what they have already been warned to do?

[cdowis]

Some people O.D. on it and then feel compelled to write their own books on their image of "what is coming", i.e. what to expect. To me it is all a colossal waste of time and energy....

It can be very profitable. This Rapture thing has brought about many books and movies.

There is a web site where you can leave a message for your loved ones when you are raptured, so they can understand why you suddenly disappeared. They promise to deliver the messages after the event...... As I remember, they give a prayer to recite so that your friend or relative can also be saved and join you in the rapture.

Edited August 6, 2011 by cdowis

[Franktalk]

Did I say anything about sitting back and waiting. Heeding the living prophet in fact puts the onus on one becoming proactive in preparing himself and his family.

Why do you think it is your job to convince people of the Biblical warning? Are you the prophet? Do you think if they don't listen to the Prophet they will listen to you? What do you propose people do except what they have already been warned to do?

It is my job to point out to people that they are missing some very important parts of scripture. I will not bury the message given to me from scripture. That message is for all. If I told you that you could get a blessing directly from God today would you do the thing requested in order to get that blessing?

Revelation 1

3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Tell me, what other Book in the Bible tells you that you are blessed by reading it? Isn't this motivation enough to place this book high on your list of reading. Don't listen to me just believe your own eyes.

If ten people read parts of the book of Revelation as a result of this thread then ten people have received a blessing from God that might not have received one. Is that a bad thing? Just what are you saying? Are you saying it is OK not to read prophecy? Are you telling me to bury the message so no one will hear it?

Instead of fearing the images in the book of Revelation we should embrace them. It is a fleshly thing we do by allowing fear to rule over us.

[jo1952]

So you think that people who already aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing will study the Book of Revelation? Believe me it's much easier to just do what the living prophet says.

Hi Deborah!

I agree! If people aren't already doing what they are supposed to be doing they would most likely balk at the idea of trying to figure out Revelation! I think this is the point which Franktalk is trying to make. The responsibility to try to teach others who are not prepared for what the signs of the end times are going to entail falls upon those of us who have been preparing ourselves. However, in order to be able to do so, we need to familiarize ourselves with those signs. IOW, even though many of us are prepared for the end times because we have been doing what we were taught to do, we will be protected even if we don't know what the signs are. However, we cannot help those who have not become accustomed to discerning the Holy Ghost, etc, if we can't pre-identify to those people what the signs are. If we should cause fear in those who are not now prepared, which causes them to start paying attention and seeking God in order to avoid unknowingly joining the adversary, then I think the time we took to warn them would have been well spent. I think God would prefer that a person turn to Him out of fear of what might otherwise happen by being fooled into joining the adversary's camp, then if they didn't turn to Him at all.

Love,

jo

[Deborah]

It is my job to point out to people that they are missing some very important parts of scripture. I will not bury the message given to me from scripture. That message is for all.

No it is not your job, except as a teacher encouraging students to read the scriptures.

If I told you that you could get a blessing directly from God today would you do the thing requested in order to get that blessing?

If you told me, no. I listen to the Prophet and other church leaders.