Why Didn'T Jesus Ever Have Joseph Smith Feel His Hands?

[Doctor Ninja]

It means there is no documentary evidence, that I am aware of at this time, to establish that Joseph saw the Lord with his natural eyes as the Nephites did; it means that as far as I know, the documented sightings by Joseph took place in a context which would seemingly preclude physical contact because the Lord in each case was apparently in heaven. It doesn't have to matter to anyone; of course, lack of documentary evidence is not documentary evidence of lack. It is entirely possible there were undocumented physical contacts between Joseph and the Lord, but to assert that it did happen is to go beyond the publicly known evidence.

That begs the question, what constitutes "physical contacts"?

[Log]

There is none that I know of. Argumentum ad ignorantiam is your ball.

Excuse me, but did you not assert that the Lord laid his hands on Joseph? What is the basis for your claim? And, if you have no evidence, is it not you who makes the argument from ignorance?

[Doctor Ninja]

Excuse me, but did you not assert that the Lord laid his hands on Joseph? What is the basis for your claim? And, if you have no evidence, is it not you who makes the argument from ignorance?

I was kind enough to answer your questions. Please do the same with mine.

[Log]

I am not following you. Are you saying that because They weren't walking in the grove, but hovering over Joseph Smith, it wasn't a physical manifestation?

How do you interpret the earliest version of the first vision, the link to which having been previously provided?

[Log]

I was kind enough to answer your questions. Please do the same with mine.

My question, which remains unanswered as yet, is "what is your evidence that the Lord laid his hands on Joseph?"

[Doctor Ninja]

How do you interpret the earliest version of the first vision, the link to which having been previously provided?

This is obviously going no where, when you ignore my questions or answer them with another question.

You believe whatever you want and analyze and live off every single word in the scriptures and the accounts of Joseph Smith as the "destroyer of words" implies.

The bottom line: to nit pick at the account puts you in dangerous waters and I am not your lifeguard.

[altersteve]

Log,

Are you going to address the examples I gave?

So does that mean that Jesus wasn't physically there in the Sacred Grove and in the Kirtland Temple? When the three witnesses saw the angel and the plates and heard the voice of God, were the angel and the plates not really there? If the plates weren't physically there, then what were they touching? What about Nephi's prophetic vision in First Nephi? Was the angel he was with not really there? And how about Moses' vision recorded in the Book of Moses? Was Heavenly Father not really there "in the flesh" speaking to him? Or when Stephen saw the Father and the Son before he was killed, were they not really there? Likewise with the vision of Christ that Paul had on the road to Damascus. And what about Mary's vision of Gabriel when she was told that she was to give birth to the Messiah?

[Doctor Ninja]

Log,

Are you going to address the examples I gave?

Don't hold your breath. My questions were conveniently skipped over.

Good luck!

[Log]

There is none that I know of. Argumentum ad ignorantiam is your ball.

How then did Joseph Smith receive all the keys of the Priesthood?

By authorized servants, IE Moses and all the prophets with the keys.

[Log]

So does that mean that Jesus wasn't physically there in the Sacred Grove and in the Kirtland Temple?

The accounts don't say that he was.

When the three witnesses saw the angel and the plates and heard the voice of God, were the angel and the plates not really there?

Possibly. If they could be seen with their natural eyes, then they were physically present; if not, then the angel and the plates may well have been in heaven.

If the plates weren't physically there, then what were they touching?

The three witnesses don't report touching the plates.

What about Nephi's prophetic vision in First Nephi? Was the angel he was with not really there?

They were in heaven.

And how about Moses' vision recorded in the Book of Moses? Was Heavenly Father not really there "in the flesh" speaking to him?

They were in heaven.

Or when Stephen saw the Father and the Son before he was killed, were they not really there?

They were in heaven.

Likewise with the vision of Christ that Paul had on the road to Damascus.

Dunno.

And what about Mary's vision of Gabriel when she was told that she was to give birth to the Messiah?

Dunno.

See the point? All of these experiences were very real, and so were Joseph's visions. Just because it's a "heavenly vision" does not mean it's nothing physical.

Never said anything of the kind. Things exist physically in heaven as well.

[Log]

This is obviously going no where, when you ignore my questions or answer them with another question.

When the question I ask is directly on topic, and the questions you ask are intended to divert away from the topic, as it has been, then yes, this is going nowhere.

You believe whatever you want and analyze and live off every single word in the scriptures and the accounts of Joseph Smith as the "destroyer of words" implies.

The bottom line: to nit pick at the account puts you in dangerous waters and I am not your lifeguard.

Why would I expect you to be, when contention is what you offer?

[Doctor Ninja]

Keys to the Kingdom of God have been sealed upon the head of Joseph Smith.

When the Lord gave the keys of the kingdom of God, the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood, of the apostleship, and sealed them upon the head of Joseph Smith, He sealed them upon his head to stay here upon the earth until the coming of the Son of Man. Wilford Woodruff My link

I have had sealed upon my head every key, every power, every principle of life and salvation that God has ever given to any man who ever lived upon the face of the earth. Joseph Smith My link

Joseph Smith received the keys of all previous dispensations from previous Prophets, but what about the keys of this dispensation (the fullness of times)? Who gave that to Joseph Smith?

Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors. My link

Edited July 3, 2011 by Doctor Ninja

[Log]

Doc, you're avoiding my point, and making arguments from ignorance again. See ya.

[altersteve]

The accounts don't say that he was.

Um... yes they do. The accounts specifically say that Jesus was in fact in the Sacred Grove and in the Kirtland Temple hovering above Joseph's head.

Possibly. If they could be seen with their natural eyes, then they were physically present; if not, then the angel and the plates may well have been in heaven.

So the witnesses were looking into heaven? Or were the witnesses in heaven too? And the testimony of the Three Witnesses specifically says that "an angel of God came down from heaven." So you are incorrect.

The three witnesses don't report touching the plates.

"[A]s many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands."

—Testimony of Eight Witnesses

They were in heaven.

They were on a mountain.

"I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot."

—1 Nephi 11:1

"And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down [from heaven] and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?"

—1 Nephi 11:14

If the angel came down from heaven, then they weren't in heaven, were they?

They were in heaven.

They were on a mountain.

"The words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain."

—Moses 1:1

Edited July 3, 2011 by altersteve

[Skylla]

This is obviously going no where, when you ignore my questions or answer them with another question.

You believe whatever you want and analyze and live off every single word in the scriptures and the accounts of Joseph Smith as the "destroyer of words" implies.

The bottom line: to nit pick at the account puts you in dangerous waters and I am not your lifeguard.

Doctor Ninja: Stick to the topic and keep personal judgments to yourself.

Skylla

[Doctor Ninja]

Doctor Ninja: Stick to the topic and keep personal judgments to yourself.

Skylla

I apologize Log.

[Log]

Um... yes they do. The accounts specifically say that Jesus was in fact in the Sacred Grove and in the Kirtland Temple hovering above Joseph's head.

You're reading too much into the account.

So the witnesses were looking into heaven? Or were the witnesses in heaven too? And the testimony of the Three Witnesses specifically says that "an angel of God came down from heaven." So you are incorrect.

I may indeed be incorrect, but it is also possible that they were looking into heaven.

"[A]s many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands."

—Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Which says nothing about the three witnesses, which was the topic.

They were on a mountain.

"I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot."

—1 Nephi 11:1

"And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down [from heaven] and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?"

—1 Nephi 11:14

If the angel came down from heaven, then they weren't in heaven, were they?

If only A) the text said the mountain was on earth, or B ) said that the angel came down from heaven.

They were on a mountain.

"The words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain."

—Moses 1:1

If only the text said the mountain was on earth.

[scooby]

A few thoughts:

The issue that Log raised was that of the gentiles meeting the physical Jesus with their natural eyes. This would not preclude, presumably, meeting other figures such as Peter James and John in the flesh.

There does seem to be two types of manifestations described in the scriptures: visions and visits. Jesus' visit to the Nephites, for example, has never, so far as I am aware, been described as a vision. He was physically there and they touched Him. When Stephen saw God, on the other hand, his experience was visionary in that no one else present, presumably, saw what he saw. This, and the fact that it is unlikely that Heaven was physically located directly above him (and situated at such an angle that he could see the throne of God), suggests that he was not seeing things with his physical eyes but rather seeing a distant far-off place with his spiritual eyes. This is not to minimize the experience of Stephen, but clearly there is a difference between a vision and an actual physical visit.

Whether Joseph Smith has ever seen Jesus with his physical eyes is the question. The first vision is called a vision, and after it was over Joseph "came to" and found himself lying on his back (JS-H 1:20). This would seem to suggest that a visionary rather than a physical appearance occurred. Also, Jesus' appearance to Joseph and Oliver in the Kirtland temple was described as a "vision" (D&C 110:11), with the veil being taken from their minds and the "eyes of [their] understanding" being opened (D&C 110:1). Additionally, Jesus was described as having beneath his feet a paved work of gold. These points seems to suggest that Jesus was standing in Heaven, and that His appearance here, too, was visionary.

You seem to see problems where none exist. At the time of Christ in the Bible not everyone needed to feel the wounds in his flesh. You have created a universal standard that does not exist. Further, we know that Jesus commanded many different people not to reveal all that he said or did with them. No need to create a dragon out of straw.

It was not my intention to create a "universal standard" but rather only to point out that it was customary in Jesus' other post-resurrection appearances that there was some sort of physical interaction (with the exception of his pre-ascension appearance to Mary Magdalene). This is true when He visited, was touched by, and broke bread with his apostles in the old world, and it was true when He visited, was touched by, and broke bread with the Nephites in the new world. Christ's appearances to Joseph seem to be different, with both His appearance in the grove and in the Kirtland temple being described specifically as visions.

Log's mention that Christ would not appear to the gentiles (except, presumably, in vision) seems to be the best explanation for this. The only problem is that after the vision of Jesus in the Kirtland temple was closed and Moses and others appeared to commit to Joseph and Oliver various keys, their appearances, too, were described by Joseph as visions, and yet I have always assumed that they had layed their hands on Joseph and Oliver. Perhaps they didn't?

Edited July 3, 2011 by scooby