Bom Prophecy Being Fulfilled

[cdowis]

This is one of a series of updates of the fulfillment of a BOM prophecy, 3 Nephi 20:15-16.

Mexico's rival crime gangs are in an arms race, and the latest sign of that are the homemade "Mad Max" type heavily armored vehicles they deploy to withstand fierce clashes with each other.

The army found two more "narco tanks" over the weekend in Ciudad Camargo in Tamaulipas state along the border with Texas.

In earlier discoveries in April and May, armored vehicles found by authorities contained swiveling turrets, snipers' peepholes and gadgets to dump oil and scatter tire-puncturing nails on roadways.

The latest discovery showed that the gangs are upping their game. The two armored vehicles were cloaked in inch-thick steel plating. Built on a three-axle truck bed with a heavily armored cabin, the latest "narco tanks" are far larger than previous versions.

"You can easily fit 20 armed people in here," an unidentified army officer told El Porvenir TV as he showed the inside of one of the vehicles.

The officer said the vehicles could withstand fire from 50-caliber mounted weapons and grenade blasts, and contained a vicious pointed steel battering ram.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In mid-May, police found an abandoned "Monstruo" on a highway near Mezquitic in Jalisco state. Five dead bodies lay nearby. The slope-sided, armored vehicle was built on the chassis of a Ford 2011 F-Series Super Duty pickup truck. It also contained a swiveling pop-up turret.

The "narco tanks" are only the latest of a constant effort by drug gangs in Colombia and Mexico to improve their arsenals and find better smuggling methods.

In recent years, cartels have built homemade submarines to bring cocaine north from the Andean region. Some of these submarines are over 100-feet long, can travel as deep as 25 feet below the ocean's surface and carry loads of up to eight tons of narcotics.

Here

[krose]

I'm not seeing a connection. Perhaps you could elaborate?

And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people-- Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

Okay, so "my people" in scripture generally refers to the people of Israel, who "scattered" across Eurasia at various times and for various reasons. The "Gentiles" who received a blessing and do not repent must be the non-Jewish Europeans. Right? And the "remnant" referred to here is the native population of North and South America?

But what does a group of Mexican criminals who are fighting with law enforcement and other gangs of criminals, while terrorizing innocent Mexican citizens, have to do with these verses?

[cdowis]

I'm not seeing a connection. Perhaps you could elaborate?

Okay, so "my people" in scripture generally refers to the people of Israel, who "scattered" across Eurasia at various times and for various reasons. The "Gentiles" who received a blessing and do not repent must be the non-Jewish Europeans. Right? And the "remnant" referred to here is the native population of North and South America?

But what does a group of Mexican criminals who are fighting with law enforcement and other gangs of criminals, while terrorizing innocent Mexican citizens, have to do with these verses?

Mexicans are Lamanites.

Drug wars are spilling over our borders. This is all over the news where the drug gangs are not only causing problems in Texas, etc, but also in our major cities in the United States, the increased violence both in the border towns and across the border. So this is not just in Mexico.

This article has shown an increase in the use of heavy weapons.

Finally, where are these criminal gangs getting their money? Why are they crossing the border, shipping their drugs to the United States. Who is buying these drugs? The "Lamanites" are selling their drugs to the "Gentiles" in the United States. Gradually they are becoming lions among the gentiles because of our wickedness.

May I suggest that you watch the news as these events unfold. This is the literal fulfillment of this prophecy.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Mexicans are Lamanites.

Drug wars are spilling over our borders. This is all over the news where the drug gangs are not only causing problems in Texas, etc, but also in our major cities in the United States, the increased violence both in the border towns and across the border. So this is not just in Mexico.

This article has shown an increase in the use of heavy weapons.

Finally, where are these criminal gangs getting their money? Why are they crossing the border, shipping their drugs to the United States. Who is buying these drugs? The "Lamanites" are selling their drugs to the "Gentiles" in the United States. Gradually they are becoming lions among the gentiles because of our wickedness.

May I suggest that you watch the news as these events unfold. This is the literal fulfillment of this prophecy.

In complete agreement here. And this from a poster from south of the border, who sees this literally DAILY in the news.

I haven't seen too many uprisings among the American Indians to give much credence to BOMG's theories...

[cdowis]

I have found that we can be surprised on how prophecies come to pass. When I read this scripture many years ago, I had visions of the Navahoes riding around in tanks. I did not even think of south of the border.

Now we literally have "Lamanites" attacking the Border Patrol and civilians across the border, and riding around in tanks, with the politicians telling us that the border is "secure". I can imagine in five to ten years what will could happen, all based on the unrighteousness of the Gentiles buying these drugs. They have virtually unlimited money and I see them raising an army, purchasing sophisticated arms to protect their access through our border. They already have crude submarines and armored personnel carriers.

It is happening right now.

[bookofmormontruth]

In addition, Arizona - the kidnapping capital of the nation with the endless illegal immigration and slayings of innocent Americans.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

I have found that we can be surprised on how prophecies come to pass. When I read this scripture many years ago, I had visions of the Navahoes riding around in tanks. I did not even think of south of the border.

Now we literally have "Lamanites" attacking the Border Patrol and civilians across the border, and riding around in tanks, with the politicians telling us that the border is "secure". I can imagine in five to ten years what will could happen, all based on the unrighteousness of the Gentiles buying these drugs. They have virtually unlimited money and I see them raising an army, purchasing sophisticated arms to protect their access through our border. They already have crude submarines and armored personnel carriers.

It is happening right now.

Indeed. We hear now of the narco violence passing the border, with a mass grave discovered near Houston...

[bookofmormontruth]

In complete agreement here. And this from a poster from south of the border, who sees this literally DAILY in the news.

I haven't seen too many uprisings among the American Indians to give much credence to BOMG's theories...

The previous verse:

15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people.

Sounds like Native Americans to me.

Or how about we just all come together without the petty geography debates and agree that the Native Americans and the people of South America are all descendants of the Lamanites.

[bookofmormontruth]

Doctrine and Covenants 87:5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.

These Lamanites, or American Indians, that are now so far sunk beneath humanity, are to be lifted up by the power of the Almighty when the day shall come for Israel to be restored, for God will not forget them. They are descendants of the tribe of Joseph, and consequently they are numbered with the people of the covenant. God will remember the covenant which he made with our ancient fathers. These Lamanites, these American Indians, will come to the knowledge of the covenant, and they will arise and will build upon the face of this land a magnificent city called Jerusalem, after the pattern and in the same manner that the Jews will build old Jerusalem. That is what the Lamanites will do, and we will go and help them too, for it is predicted in the Book of Mormon that when this work should come forth, when the time fully arrives for the redemption of this small remnant of the house of Joseph, "As many of the Gentiles as will believe, they shall assist my people, who are a remnant of the house of Israel, that they may build up on the face of this land a city that shall be called the New Jerusalem, and then, behold, the powers of heaven shall come down and be in the midst of this people, and I also will be in your midst." O. Pratt, JD 14:334

The Lamanites will blossom as the rose on the mountains. I am willing to say here that, though I believe this, when I see the power of the nation destroying them from the face of the earth, the fulfillment of that prophecy is perhaps harder for me to believe than any revelation of God that I ever read. It looks as though there would not be enough left to receive the Gospel; but notwithstanding this dark picture, every word that God has ever said of them will have its fulfillment, and they, by and by, will receive the Gospel. It will be a day of God's power among them, and a nation will be born in a day. Their chiefs will be filled with the power of God and receive the Gospel, and they will go forth and build the new Jerusalem, and we shall help them. They are branches of the house of Israel, and when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in and the work ceases among them, then it will go in power to the seed of Abraham. W. Woodruff, JD 15:283

Sounds like Native Americans and the people of South America.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

The previous verse:

Sounds like Native Americans to me.

Or how about we just all come together without the petty geography debates and agree that the Native Americans and the people of South America are all descendants of the Lamanites.

Yeah, they are. Hence my remark about BOMG. Don't take offence at it.

I have understood the prophecy to mean that the Lamanites would be among the Gentiles as lions among sheep. My comment was that I don't see too many Indians carrying AKs and M-16s around terrorizing populations. It could very well happen. It is happening in Mexico, Colombia, Central America, and other places.

[krose]

Mexicans are Lamanites.

That's a stretch.

Native Americans only make up about 20% of the population. Most Mexicans are mestizos, a mix of white Europeans (mostly Spaniards) and native Americans, as are a large number of those just north of the border (you know, the Americans most affected by the drug war). Also, Hispanic-Americans are the largest and fastest-growing minority in the USA, and are expected to reach 30% of the population in the next few decades. I guess that makes the country more "Lamanite" with each passing year, no?

---------------

And don't forget the implications of the LGT, which says that the Lamanites were absorbed into the larger existing population of Asian immigrants, so that there is no trace of their DNA today.

[krose]

But if we look at the BoM verses while keeping in mind the way the country was in Smith's time, it makes more sense.

The natives had been "scattered" by the invading Europeans, pushed away from their colonies in the east, but there were certainly stories of their fierce nature and what they did to "Gentiles" who crossed them while venturing out west. I'm sure that seemed pretty lion-like to them.

[cdowis]

Native Americans only make up about 20% of the population. Most Mexicans are mestizos, a mix of white Europeans (mostly Spaniards) and native Americans,

OK, and that falls under the definition of Lamanite.

as are a large number of those just north of the border (you know, the Americans most affected by the drug war). Also, Hispanic-Americans are the largest and fastest-growing minority in the USA, and are expected to reach 30% of the population in the next few decades. I guess that makes the country more "Lamanite" with each passing year, no?

And this shows that the BOM prophecy is being fulfilled, no?

---------------

And don't forget the implications of the LGT, which says that the Lamanites were absorbed into the larger existing population of Asian immigrants, so that there is no trace of their DNA today.

So say some, but I do not agree with the "no trace". This has been discussed endlessly under the DNA threads. We have the haplogroup X, for example, which cannot be explained by the asian connection. And how does the asian connection explain the native american who has a common ancestor with a woman from Greece.

Finally, we do not know the DNA characteristics of Lehi, et al. They have only used DNA from the tribe of Judah, not Joseph. And we have not even touched on sampling error through selective sampling.

I think "no trace" not only oversimplifies, but is inaccurate.

[krose]

OK, and that falls under the definition of Lamanite.

So I wonder how remotely related a person can be to an alleged small group of Hebrews from over 2000 years ago and still be called a "Lamanite"? What fraction is enough? 25%? 10%? 5%? A "single drop" of Lamanite blood, as President Young used to say? Or is it more about the color of their skin? I am convinced that's the reason Polynesians found themselves included in the definition.

And this shows that the BOM prophecy is being fulfilled, no?

Right, so now the prophecy is being fulfilled by an integration of the races. Sounds like a slightly different direction from the invasion of the Lamanite drug pushers.

I suppose you have to take your prophecy fulfillments wherever you can get them, but it's not convincing.

[bookofmormontruth]

So I wonder how remotely related a person can be to an alleged small group of Hebrews from over 2000 years ago and still be called a "Lamanite"? What fraction is enough? 25%? 10%? 5%? A "single drop" of Lamanite blood, as President Young used to say? Or is it more about the color of their skin? I am convinced that's the reason Polynesians found themselves included in the definition.

Right, so now the prophecy is being fulfilled by an integration of the races. Sounds like a slightly different direction from the invasion of the Lamanite drug pushers.

I suppose you have to take your prophecy fulfillments wherever you can get them, but it's not convincing.

Wait, what? Hold the horses!

You don't believe in Book of Mormon prophecies? What a shocker! But I do like how you use quotes, versus from scriptures etc (like you almost believe in them).....to fit your arguments/agenda.

[krose]

Wait, what? Hold the horses!

You don't believe in Book of Mormon prophecies? What a shocker! But I do like how you use quotes, versus from scriptures etc (like you almost believe in them).....to fit your arguments/agenda.

You might want to say "shock" instead of "shocker" in the future (I would also advise against a Google search.)

No, although I used to, I no longer believe the book is anything more than a 19th-century creation. But I am always open to evidence that it actually is a historical, inspired document, such as a clear prophecy being clearly fulfilled. This does not do it.

[bookofmormontruth]

You might want to say "shock" instead of "shocker" in the future (I would also advise against a Google search.)

No, although I used to, I no longer believe the book is anything more than a 19th-century creation. But I am always open to evidence that it actually is a historical, inspired document, such as a clear prophecy being clearly fulfilled. This does not do it.

Great, I shouldn't have used google.

You are really "open"? That is very hard to believe. Really hard! Sorry.

[krose]

Great, I shouldn't have used google.

You are really "open"? That is very hard to believe. Really hard! Sorry.

This is just a shot in the dark, but I would guess that's because you buy into the myth that nonbelievers (especially former LDS, for some inexplicable reason) are "stiff-necked" people who are stubbornly determined to stick to their "denial" of the truth no matter how much evidence they see. Our determination to disbelieve and to sin is so entrenched, according to the myth, that we would refuse to believe a visit by an actual angel personally showing us the plates and vouching for them. Well, it's just not true. But I don't imagine you will take my word for it.

(I did warn you not to look up the word.)

[cdowis]

I suppose you have to take your prophecy fulfillments wherever you can get them, but it's not convincing.

Actually I was addressing myself to the believers, not arguing that it is proof of the authenticity of the BOM. I am very much aware that there is nothing in the scriptures, no prophecy that will convince the unbeliever.

[bookofmormontruth]

This is just a shot in the dark, but I would guess that's because you buy into the myth that nonbelievers (especially former LDS, for some inexplicable reason) are "stiff-necked" people who are stubbornly determined to stick to their "denial" of the truth no matter how much evidence they see. Our determination to disbelieve and to sin is so entrenched, according to the myth, that we would refuse to believe a visit by an actual angel personally showing us the plates and vouching for them. Well, it's just not true. But I don't imagine you will take my word for it.

(I did warn you not to look up the word.)

You are correct, I don't take your word for it. Your words have proven and shown otherwise and are nothing new in the predictable category of unbelievers, apostates and the likes.

in fact, it is completely easier to believe in Joseph Smith's real experience with Moroni than to believe that you are "open" to any evidence.

[krose]

You are correct, I don't take your word for it. Your words have proven and shown otherwise and are nothing new in the predictable category of unbelievers, apostates and the likes.

in fact, it is completely easier to believe in Joseph Smith's real experience with Moroni than to believe that you are "open" to any evidence.

That's pretty judgmental, with the implication that a person would knowingly choose to spend eternity isolated in a lower kingdom rather than in the highest with his family (not to mention all the relationship difficulties in this life), just to avoid admitting to obvious truths. Please show me where I have dismissed clear and obvious evidence out of hand (not just something remotely plausible). To the contrary, I actually examined the text to which Mr. Dowis referred when claiming a prophecy fulfillment. You even made fun of me for doing so.

You are aware, are you not, that there are posters on this very message board who spent years as unbelieving apostates, and who are now believing members? Yet you cavalierly dismiss the sincerity of all of us who are currently in that state. Your hard-line skepticism toward skeptics is amusingly contradictory.

[bookofmormontruth]

That's pretty judgmental, with the implication that a person would knowingly choose to spend eternity isolated in a lower kingdom rather than in the highest with his family (not to mention all the relationship difficulties in this life), just to avoid admitting to obvious truths. Please show me where I have dismissed clear and obvious evidence out of hand (not just something remotely plausible). To the contrary, I actually examined the text to which Mr. Dowis referred when claiming a prophecy fulfillment. You even made fun of me for doing so.

You are aware, are you not, that there are posters on this very message board who spent years as unbelieving apostates, and who are now believing members? Yet you cavalierly dismiss the sincerity of all of us who are currently in that state. Your hard-line skepticism toward skeptics is amusingly contradictory.

Why so defensive? If you don't even believe in the degrees of Glory, why act like it matters to you? And yes, this is mocking.

For the evidence that you have rejected is the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the testimony of Joseph Smith. Maybe not to yours or the world's "standards", but to the Lord's standards it is "clear and obvious".

I am also fully aware, and I have a few friends/ family members who were fierce anti-Mormons / apostates and I was very "hard" on all of them. I am sorry, but it is not "cavalier" to believe that in your current state, you are not "open", but let's not fool ourselves in believing that you are an "exception" to the predictable rule.

You have chosen to be on the wrong side (there are no grey areas in the Gospel) and you aren't going to get a hug from me for it, sorry. I am sure a better example of a member can, so no worries.

[Walden]

Why so defensive? If you don't even believe in the degrees of Glory, why act like it matters to you? And yes, this is mocking.

For the evidence that you have rejected is the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the testimony of Joseph Smith. Maybe not to yours or the world's "standards", but to the Lord's standards it is "clear and obvious".

I am also fully aware, and I have a few friends/ family members who were fierce anti-Mormons / apostates and I was very "hard" on all of them. I am sorry, but it is not "cavalier" to believe that in your current state, you are not "open", but let's not fool ourselves in believing that you are an "exception" to the predictable rule.

You have chosen to be on the wrong side (there are no grey areas in the Gospel) and you aren't going to get a hug from me for it, sorry. I am sure a better example of a member can, so no worries.

An interesting quote from someone admonishing another for not being "open"......"You have chosen to be on the wrong side (there are no grey areas in the Gospel) and you aren't going to get a hug from me for it, sorry. I am sure a better example of a member can, so no worries."

Yes, that sounds very "open" to me....it is black and white ("there are no gray areas"), you are clearly on the "wrong side" and there is absolutely no sympathy/empathy for your state ("you aren't going to get a hug from me for it, sorry").

Thanks for that fine example of how to truly be "open".....reminds me of that phrase about glass houses and stones.

[bookofmormontruth]

An interesting quote from someone admonishing another for not being "open"......"You have chosen to be on the wrong side (there are no grey areas in the Gospel) and you aren't going to get a hug from me for it, sorry. I am sure a better example of a member can, so no worries."

Yes, that sounds very "open" to me....it is black and white ("there are no gray areas"), you are clearly on the "wrong side" and there is absolutely no sympathy/empathy for your state ("you aren't going to get a hug from me for it, sorry").

Thanks for that fine example of how to truly be "open".....reminds me of that phrase about glass houses and stones.

I never "admonished", I only stated the obvious. Big difference.

Since you don't know me on a personal level, I have more empathy than you can judge, but not in the way you and others want it on here. Grey areas are not on the side of the Lord no matter how offensive that is to the world. And if you are not on the Lord's side - whose side are you on?

Stop talking about yourself and stop preaching if you want to stay in the thread. Minos

[cdowis]

Texas authorities said suspected drug runners in Mexico began shooting at U.S. law enforcement agents from across the Rio Grande on Thursday, forcing the U.S. officers to return fire and injuring at least three of the suspects on the other side of the border.

Few details about the early morning shootout in Hidalgo County were immediately available. The shootout began after U.S. agents patrolling in boats tried to seize a drug load on the Rio Grande, Texas Department of Public Safety spokeswoman Tela Mange said.

Mange said she could not disclose whether any U.S. officers were struck or injured. She said the agents came under "heavy fire" but would not say how long the ensuing shootout lasted.

Authorities said Mexican officials were notified about two "drug-laden" boats that were abandoned after the shootout.