Does God use faith?

[Magyar]

I heard it again yesterday in Sacrament Meeting ... the idea that God used faith to create the world. I looked but found no such statement anywhere in scripture. Has it ever been stated by leadership of the Church?

Faith, by scriptural definition, requires lack of knowledge. Once one has knowledge, one no longer needs to exercise faith. Therefore, our omniscient God does not operate by faith.

Perhaps it is a misunderstanding of Hebrews 11:3. "By faith we understand that God created the world ..."

[ELF1024]

I heard it again yesterday in Sacrament Meeting ... the idea that God used faith to create the world. I looked but found no such statement anywhere in scripture. Has it ever been stated by leadership of the Church?

Faith, by scriptural definition, requires lack of knowledge. Once one has knowledge, one no longer needs to exercise faith. Therefore, our omniscient God does not operate by faith.

Perhaps it is a misunderstanding of Hebrews 11:3. "By faith we understand that God created the world ..."

I would agree with you that an "all knowing" God could not use faith, as he has a perfect knowledge of all things.

I would rephrase your Hebrews 11:3 quote as follows:

We understand (because we have faith), that God created the world....

[mapman]

This is taught in the Lectures on Faith. 1:15 says:

By this we understand that the principle of power, which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power, existing in the Deity, that all created things exist-so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth, exist by reason of faith, as it existed in HIM.

1:24

Faith, then, is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things: by it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain, agreeably to the will of God. Without it, there is no power, and without power there could be no creation, nor existence!

[Magyar]

I would agree with you that an "all knowing" God could not use faith, as he has a perfect knowledge of all things.

I would rephrase your Hebrews 11:3 quote as follows:

Thank you, ELF, I agree that is how Hebrews should be interpreted. I wonder where the sweet sister got her quote from. As I said, I have heard it before but never questioned it until now -- guess I never thought too hard about it before. Quite frankly, it appears to me to be false doctrine. Which, therefore, ought to be corrected.

[Magyar]

This is taught in the Lectures on Faith. 1:15 says:

1:24

Ah, so that is the source. Very contradictory with scripture, though, which explicitly teaches us that once we obtain perfect knowledge, we no longer utilize faith.

[ELF1024]

This is taught in the Lectures on Faith. 1:15 says:

1:24

Perhaps this is why the Lectures on Faith are not doctrine. This seems to contridict the defintion of Faith/Perfect Knowledge. If nothing else it is inelegantly phrased and a confusion (In my opinion) of Priesthood Power and Faith.

[nicolasconnault]

Thank you, ELF, I agree that is how Hebrews should be interpreted. I wonder where the sweet sister got her quote from. As I said, I have heard it before but never questioned it until now -- guess I never thought too hard about it before. Quite frankly, it appears to me to be false doctrine. Which, therefore, ought to be corrected.

Some LDS believe that God's knowledge is not perfect in the sense that He knows exactly what will occur, worlds without end, but that it means He fully comprehends all the possibilities and contingencies, without knowing exactly how free agents (us) will use their agency. This is obviously a philosophical/metaphysical argument, but it makes God's use of faith an interesting idea. Note that I don't have a fixed opinion on this, I'm still very much attached to the idea that God knows all things in the sense that He even knows what our choices will be.

Also, perhaps we do not fully understand what faith is. I find it to be one of the deepest and richest principles of the Gospel, about which I am constantly learning. It might take a mind as broad as Joseph's to make sense of this, so I'm not holding my breath

Edit: One final idea came to mind: It is very likely that God used a number of his children to create the earth (Christ, Michael, others?), most of whom did not have perfect knowledge. They would have required an enormous amount of faith to wield the power of God in the creation of worlds! Perhaps this idea can reconcile the two doctrines?

[Hughes]

Perhaps this is why the Lectures on Faith are not doctrine. This seems to contridict the defintion of Faith/Perfect Knowledge. If nothing else it is inelegantly phrased and a confusion (In my opinion) of Priesthood Power and Faith.

I'm confused. Things are taught in the LDS church, which are not accepted doctrine?

[Mansquatch]

Perhaps this is why the Lectures on Faith are not doctrine. This seems to contridict the defintion of Faith/Perfect Knowledge. If nothing else it is inelegantly phrased and a confusion (In my opinion) of Priesthood Power and Faith.

Perfect faith is knowledge. One and the same.

[ELF1024]

I'm confused. Things are taught in the LDS church, which are not accepted doctrine?

The lectures on faith are not taught in the church. They may have been at one point, but they are not taught today.

[ELF1024]

Perfect faith is knowledge. One and the same.

I think Alma the Elder would disagree with you...

Alma 32:21

21 And now as I said concerning faith

[Mansquatch]

I think Alma the Elder would disagree with you...

On the contrary, he very much agrees with me. Read the whole chapter to find how faith can "[grow] up to a perfect knowledge."

[Magyar]

On the contrary, he very much agrees with me. Read the whole chapter to find how faith can "[grow] up to a perfect knowledge."

Faith is the caterpillar; knowledge the butterfly.

[ElderDarionBevan]

no miracle can be wrought without faith, and p.s. it was Christ who created the world

[thesometimesaint]

We can have a perfect knowledge that the atoms that make up every physical object are mostly empty space. I have faith that I won't fall though them when I get out of bed in the morning.

[Magyar]

We can have a perfect knowledge that the atoms that make up every physical object are mostly empty space. I have faith that I won't fall though them when I get out of bed in the morning.

But if you were God, you would KNOW that you won't fall through them.

[Magyar]

no miracle can be wrought without faith, and p.s. it was Christ who created the world

God performs His miracles through knowledge. We mortals, on the other hand, operate with faith. Sometimes the miracles we hope for, do not come to pass.

[nicolasconnault]

Wow, has anyone actually read my post, or was it too long?

[Magyar]

Wow, has anyone actually read my post, or was it too long?

Of course I read it. I simply cannot countenance in any way, shape or form, that God is not omniscient. That Joseph may have had a more profound understanding of the concept of faith than I do, is quite likely. Possibly a certainty.

[nicolasconnault]

Of course I read it. I simply cannot countenance in any way, shape or form, that God is not omniscient. That Joseph may have had a more profound understanding of the concept of faith than I do, is quite likely. Possibly a certainty.

I agree with you. I was hoping you would comment on this:

It is very likely that God used a number of his children to create the earth (Christ, Michael, others?), most of whom did not have perfect knowledge. They would have required an enormous amount of faith to wield the power of God in the creation of worlds! Perhaps this idea can reconcile the two doctrines?

[Thunderfire]

Perhaps it is a misunderstanding of Hebrews 11:3. "By faith we understand that God created the world ..."

In my opinion, this verse is speaking of "us" in that by OUR faith we understand that God created the world. This is not saying that God has faith, but that we have faith that God did the creating.

But then, speaking of God having faith. If we look at faith as being a form of "trust", it is possible to say that God does in fact have faith...he has placed his faith in us or trusts us with the precious things of God. Anyway, just trying to offer different ways of looking at this...

[thesometimesaint]

Having gotten up in the morning about 24,000 times so far. It's about as close to perfect knowledge as it comes.

[Mansquatch]

Some LDS believe that God's knowledge is not perfect in the sense that He knows exactly what will occur, worlds without end, but that it means He fully comprehends all the possibilities and contingencies, without knowing exactly how free agents (us) will use their agency. This is obviously a philosophical/metaphysical argument, but it makes God's use of faith an interesting idea. Note that I don't have a fixed opinion on this, I'm still very much attached to the idea that God knows all things in the sense that He even knows what our choices will be.

Also, perhaps we do not fully understand what faith is. I find it to be one of the deepest and richest principles of the Gospel, about which I am constantly learning. It might take a mind as broad as Joseph's to make sense of this, so I'm not holding my breath

Edit: One final idea came to mind: It is very likely that God used a number of his children to create the earth (Christ, Michael, others?), most of whom did not have perfect knowledge. They would have required an enormous amount of faith to wield the power of God in the creation of worlds! Perhaps this idea can reconcile the two doctrines?

Faith is training wheels for us to become eternal like our Father in heaven. While here, we must have faith in things past, things present and things future. Our Father's faith has reached the point of being perfect knowledge and that is knowledge of past, present and future in one perfectly. That is the nature of being an eternal being. That is also the difference between being an eternal being and being a really nice immortal being. The testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy and when speaking of the salvation of Christ everyone can predict the future. Faith is preparation for "eternal life".

[keithb]

I would agree with you that an "all knowing" God could not use faith, as he has a perfect knowledge of all things.

I would rephrase your Hebrews 11:3 quote as follows:

Does God know absolutely everything, or are there some things unknown even to him? Do we have a definite doctrinal position on this?

[ELF1024]

Does God know absolutely everything, or are there some things unknown even to him? Do we have a definite doctrinal position on this?

I'm not sure for the sake of the OP that God knowing everything is required...

• 
  Moses 1:33
  And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

I would say that if he created that many worlds, that the Lord knows all there is to know about World making... Prolly even more than the boys at Magrathea...