Did Christ suffer for all?

[LDSToronto]

You'll only be "done for" if you don't repent. The suffering described here seems to describe the punishment of the sons of perdition.

The scripture doesn't specifically call out the sons of perdition as those who suffer, so I'm uncertain if that is the correct interpretation. I read it to mean that anyone who fails to repent will have to suffer the same way Christ did.

Of course, I'm hoping I'm wrong...

H.

PS. your previous post is interesting, but I will have to respond tomorrow, as it takes more brain power than my tired mind can muster now.

[Log]

Really? Where was my warning?

The wages of sin is death - Romans 6:23

And, aren't we all going to pretty much fall short?

No.

Aren't we all going to die in sin?

No.

Aren't we all going to take an infinite beating?

No.

[staccato]

My favorite saying: Jesus suffered and died for you, so you too can suffer and die.

[Log]

This topic interests me more and more. Let's have some points here:

1. Christ's atonement is both retroactive (covers past sins) and proactive (covers future sins)
2. If the suffering is the sum of the suffering for each individual sin, then each individual sin must be foreknown (problem of God's omniscience discussed currently in another thread)
3. If 2 is not true, let's assume that the suffering of Christ was not limited by any bounds, but was actually "infinite" in intensity as much as it was infinite in universality
4. If 3 is true, then the whole question of whether or not Christ suffered for the sons of perdition is moot: Christ performed the atonement, period. It satisfies all the requirements of the plan of salvation regardless of who repents.
5. If neither 2 nor 3 are true, then we must look for another way to understand the suffering part of the atonement

The problem I have with points 3 and 4 is that they somewhat dispel my idea of a Saviour who was thinking of me at some stage of this atonement experience. It seems to make the atonement less personal and more global. I'm not very comfortable with that concept.

I think we have libertarian free will, which 3 is consistent with, where 2 is not (the concept of infinite suffering - suffering without limits - isn't found in the scriptures - so I don't exactly hold with #3 but accept the conclusion in #4). D&C 19 seems to me to very strongly imply something like #3. Blake Ostler, who also holds to libertarian free will, and whose view in this matter I consider anti-scriptural, (roughly) believes that Christ performs an atonement each time someone repents.

[TAO]

Oh, but wait, that's not what the scriptures say, read again:

For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit

[awesome0]

If the atonement is infinite, there is no need for God to have perfect knowledge of every sin we have or will commit. That eliminates this feeling of helplessness. It covers all sins as it is infinite. No sin adds to or takes away from it. It also means that we need not feel additional guilt for the individual pain are sins cost him, as the atonement is infinite with or without our sins. The main thing we need is faith in him and his atonement so we can repent for the sins we did commit, and not feel guilty for using the atonement to repent. The infinite atonement implies no guilt for using the atonement to repent. Our guilt and restitution should be direct towards those we wronged, and not towards our savior who made a SELF-LESS sacrifice for us. Its infinite.

[nicolasconnault]

OK I found the scriptures:Alma 11:40-41

40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

41 Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

And Mosiah 15:10-12

10 And now I say unto you, who shall declare his generation? Behold, I say unto you, that when his soul has been made an offering for sin he shall see his seed. And now what say ye? And who shall be his seed?

11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord

[Bsix]

I think there is some confusion regarding the universiality of the atonement. (Don't confuse the Jesus suffering for every sin with the notion that some will reject the atonement and thus miss out.)

I maintain that the atoning suffering and resurrection of Jesus Christ was for all. In that sense it is universal. Jesus did not take upon him the sins of only a select few people. In that sense the atonement is universal and offered to all. This is a core doctrine of LDS theology. It is why we believe the Gospel will be taught to all...and why we perform proxy baptism.

However, not all will accept the atonement performed for them by Jesus Christ. From that point of view, the atonement is not universally applied due to rejection. There will be no sinner who rejects the atonement for which Jesus did not suffer.

As for the Sons of Perdition, it is my understansing that they are those who have fully accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the point of receiving the Second Comforter...whatever that is...and then turn on the Lord and Savior. In this instance, the atonement was made for them...accepted by them...and then rejected by them.

Six