On Inerrancy

[Hick Preacher]

Very interesting read so far. I found this part fun.

Edited to add,

I really like this quote.

Emphasis mine.

I am glad to see that you read this article.

[Hick Preacher]

It is interesting to me that a group of people, that as a whole, believe that the canon is closed, and therefore not a single one of them has actually received scripture, can claim with such fervency, that they know how the process actually works.

I am not sure that Traditional Christians including EVs as a group universally understand the idea of a closed canon. Or even the notion of a canon as a collection of ancient books. I know Baptists are prone to believe that the Bible is just one huge book that cannot be added to or taken from based on Revelation 22:19. This is my opinion because I have heard this over and over from Baptists in the deep South of the USA.

In my experience it is only after I was in college, and associated with EVs in more advanced Bible Studies that the notion that the Bible was a collection was universally accepted.

In conservative Sunday Schools the Bible is assumed to be one Book. Lots of Traditional Christians have never been taught how the Bible has come to be.

Back around 2005 I wrote a Sunday School curriculum called "Bible Basics". It included about 75 PowerPoint slides and discussed the canon and the origins of various books. It caused a controversy in a Denver Mega Church when I began to present it in an evening Adult Religion class. The basics about the origins of the Bible was news to middle-aged people who had been active in Church for their entire lives- who spend their childhoods being taught in Sunday School-- and lots of time in adulthood Sunday Schools.

BTW this curriculum did not even mention 'Inerrancy" rather just related ideas as to why the Bible is a highly valued source of information for matters of faith.

I attend a Saturday morning men's group of about 20 men. Over the past 2 years that we get together to study the Bible, never has the issue of 'Inerrancy' been discussed. I imagine of the other men there only one who is a seminary graduate, would be familiar enough with the term, or have an opinion about it or would want to argue about it. About 50% of the men are college educated.

[ElfLord]

Back around 2005 I wrote a Sunday School curriculum called "Bible Basics". It included about 75 PowerPoint slides and discussed the canon and the origins of various books. It caused a controversy in a Denver Mega Church when I began to present it in an evening Adult Religion class. The basics about the origins of the Bible was news to middle-aged people who had been active in Church for their entire lives- who spend their childhoods being taught in Sunday School-- and lots of time in adulthood Sunday Schools.

Yep... Ignorance IS bliss.

[Hick Preacher]

Yep... Ignorance IS bliss.

Well, its a matter of socialization.

I did not have any motive to look into the origins of any scripture until I felt challenged to do so. That was when I was an LDS person who was challenged by Seventh-Day Adventists who sported anti-Mormon literature.

I did not start a serious study of religious issues until after I felt socially pressured to counter anti-Mormon propaganda that I found to be emotionally disturbing.

As a side-effect I learned about the origin of the canon and other ideas about Bible reliability. One of the first books I read was How Came the Bible by Edgar J. Goodspeed. Just the reading of one simple book on the origins of the Bible enabled me to analyze with a significantly improved position anti-Mormon and atheist literature that previously I found overwhelming. In my case, little bit of critical knowledge went a long ways in coping with socially awkward situation related to religious topics.

So I have always felt that it is beneficial to teach Church going people about the origins of the Bible. I think that it is especially useful to believers in today's information age.

[Vance]

I am not sure that Traditional Christians including EVs as a group universally understand the idea of a closed canon. Or even the notion of a canon as a collection of ancient books. I know Baptists are prone to believe that the Bible is just one huge book that cannot be added to or taken from based on Revelation 22:19. This is my opinion because I have heard this over and over from Baptists in the deep South of the USA.

In my experience it is only after I was in college, and associated with EVs in more advanced Bible Studies that the notion that the Bible was a collection was universally accepted.

In conservative Sunday Schools the Bible is assumed to be one Book. Lots of Traditional Christians have never been taught how the Bible has come to be.

Back around 2005 I wrote a Sunday School curriculum called "Bible Basics". It included about 75 PowerPoint slides and discussed the canon and the origins of various books. It caused a controversy in a Denver Mega Church when I began to present it in an evening Adult Religion class. The basics about the origins of the Bible was news to middle-aged people who had been active in Church for their entire lives- who spend their childhoods being taught in Sunday School-- and lots of time in adulthood Sunday Schools.

BTW this curriculum did not even mention 'Inerrancy" rather just related ideas as to why the Bible is a highly valued source of information for matters of faith.

I attend a Saturday morning men's group of about 20 men. Over the past 2 years that we get together to study the Bible, never has the issue of 'Inerrancy' been discussed. I imagine of the other men there only one who is a seminary graduate, would be familiar enough with the term, or have an opinion about it or would want to argue about it. About 50% of the men are college educated.

My experience with EVs is similar. A whole lot of ignorance going on out there.

[ElfLord]

We read in Luke 2:

23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)

But if we go to the Law where this is written...

Ex 13:2

Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine

Ex 34:19

All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male

There seems to be an ambiguity here. According to Luke it's EVERY male. But according to the Law it's every "First Born" male?!

[Rob Bowman]

ElfLord,

This is an easy one. To "open the womb" in Exodus is an idiom meaning that a child comes out of the womb for the first time. Context is determinative here. As an analogy, if someone said, "Sears just opened another store," you would know that this referred to the initial opening of the store for business, not to the recurring "opening" of stores at a regular time each morning.

We read in Luke 2:

23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)

But if we go to the Law where this is written...

Ex 13:2

Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine

Ex 34:19

All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male

There seems to be an ambiguity here. According to Luke it's EVERY male. But according to the Law it's every "First Born" male?!

[Vance]

ElfLord,

This is an easy one. To "open the womb" in Exodus is an idiom meaning that a child comes out of the womb for the first time. Context is determinative here. As an analogy, if someone said, "Sears just opened another store," you would know that this referred to the initial opening of the store for business, not to the recurring "opening" of stores at a regular time each morning.

Wow!!!

Talk about not even addressing the issue.

Just how does this response resolve the conflict between "Every male that openeth" and "all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth"?

[Hick Preacher]

My experience with EVs is similar. A whole lot of ignorance going on out there.

I do not see it as ignorance in general, just lack of interest. Exploring religious ideas is NOT for everyone.

[Deborah]

What surprises me is that those who shout Bible inerrancy are for the most part the same people who don't follow all the things the Bible teaches, such as the importance of works or the structure in the church Christ established of Apostles, Prophets, etc.

It seems that LDS, who understand what inerrancy means, also follow the scriptures the most closely.

[Vance]

bump.

[Rob Bowman]

All,

I just heard about the impending changes to the discussion board. I will need to spend some serious time making copies of various posts before those changes hit, lest certain threads disappear before I am finished with them. Also, I will be spending a fair amount of time researching some issues pertaining to my discussion with maklelan. For these reasons, I expect my active participation to be severely curtailed, possibly for the next week or more. Thanks to those of you who will understand and not draw rash, unwarranted inferences.

[Vance]

I will need to spend some serious time making copies of various posts before those changes hit, lest certain threads disappear before I am finished with them.

Just ask an archivist to save them, or become an archivist yourself.

[Vance]

bump.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

All,

I just heard about the impending changes to the discussion board. I will need to spend some serious time making copies of various posts before those changes hit, lest certain threads disappear before I am finished with them. Also, I will be spending a fair amount of time researching some issues pertaining to my discussion with maklelan. For these reasons, I expect my active participation to be severely curtailed, possibly for the next week or more. Thanks to those of you who will understand and not draw rash, unwarranted inferences.

Make us a list of the threads you want saved and we will make sure they are saved for future reference. You have contributted quite a bit and I think it a shame if any of it got lost.

[ElfLord]

So I have always felt that it is beneficial to teach Church going people about the origins of the Bible. I think that it is especially useful to believers in today's information age.

Amen to this.