Bender of Pine Bow's quote from Rev. John Heckewelder's Traditions of the North American Indians Vol II

[nosmelone]

Just to quickly summarize the situation, in Reverend John Heckewelders, "The Coming of the Minquon," in Traditions of the North American Indians, Voll II,ed. James Athearn Jones 99-105.56. He tells of the Lenape people (the Delawares) first meeting with white people when the Florentine explorer Giovanni da Verrazano sailed into what is now the New York Harbor in 1524. Basically to make it short the Lenape tribe had seen this big house on the sea floating towards them. Eventually upon meeting the leader of the ship dressed all in red he walks fearlessly into their camp and as a peace offering basically has an unknown drink resembling water poored into a glass cup and takes a drink and then offers it to the tribe leader. He smells it and does not drink but passes it on to the other people in the tribe who do the same. Eventually it comes to one of their warriors named "Bender of Pine Bow" who insists that it would be best if they drink it rather than offending the gods (whom they thought they were dealing with). Bender of Pine Bow takes the glass and gives instructions to his friends and family bidding them farewell and drinks of the substance which we now know was an alcoholic drink fully expecting to die. Upon advising the tribe that someone needed to drink this offering given to them he states this,

"It is not right for us to return the cup with its contents untasted. It is handed to us by the Manito, that we may drink as he has done. To follow his example wll be pleasing to him; it will show our confidence in him, and the courage which we have been told is highly valued by hm. To return the cup with its contents untasted, will give him reason to think we believe it to be the juice of the poison-tree; it will provoke his anger and bring destruction upon us all. It is for the good of the nation that the contents of the cup should be swallowed, and , as no one else will do it, the Bender of the Pine Bow devotes himself to the killing drought. It is better that one man should perish than that a whole nation should be destroyed."

Some may say that this phrase could have been influenced by Rev Heckewelders, own Christian beliefs (John 11:50). I find it more probable that in his time unsurity that Bender of Pine Bow's mind would have raced through all the teachings of his elders, chiefs and shaman for answers about accepting this strange brew from strange men. That phrase cries out from the dust to possible early ancestoral teachings from Nephi 4:13,

"Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to brig forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

These scenes unfolded in New York somewhat near the place where Moroni would have deposited the plates. I'm not attempting to use this as evidence for any Book of Mormon lands theory because I tend to lean towards the mesoamerican setting but I do recognize that eventually the plates somehow made it to the Hill Cumorah in upstate NY. Is this similarity in phrases between Bender of Pine Bow and Nephi just a strange coincodence? Maybe someone on these boards has more insight into this story?

[volgadon]

Just to quickly summarize the situation, in Reverend John Heckewelders, "The Coming of the Minquon," in Traditions of the North American Indians, Voll II,ed. James Athearn Jones 99-105.56. He tells of the Lenape people (the Delawares) first meeting with white people when the Florentine explorer Giovanni da Verrazano sailed into what is now the New York Harbor in 1524. Basically to make it short the Lenape tribe had seen this big house on the sea floating towards them. Eventually upon meeting the leader of the ship dressed all in red he walks fearlessly into their camp and as a peace offering basically has an unknown drink resembling water poored into a glass cup and takes a drink and then offers it to the tribe leader. He smells it and does not drink but passes it on to the other people in the tribe who do the same. Eventually it comes to one of their warriors named "Bender of Pine Bow" who insists that it would be best if they drink it rather than offending the gods (whom they thought they were dealing with). Bender of Pine Bow takes the glass and gives instructions to his friends and family bidding them farewell and drinks of the substance which we now know was an alcoholic drink fully expecting to die. Upon advising the tribe that someone needed to drink this offering given to them he states this,

"It is not right for us to return the cup with its contents untasted. It is handed to us by the Manito, that we may drink as he has done. To follow his example wll be pleasing to him; it will show our confidence in him, and the courage which we have been told is highly valued by hm. To return the cup with its contents untasted, will give him reason to think we believe it to be the juice of the poison-tree; it will provoke his anger and bring destruction upon us all. It is for the good of the nation that the contents of the cup should be swallowed, and , as no one else will do it, the Bender of the Pine Bow devotes himself to the killing drought. It is better that one man should perish than that a whole nation should be destroyed."

Some may say that this phrase could have been influenced by Rev Heckewelders, own Christian beliefs (John 11:50). I find it more probable that in his time unsurity that Bender of Pine Bow's mind would have raced through all the teachings of his elders, chiefs and shaman for answers about accepting this strange brew from strange men. That phrase cries out from the dust to possible early ancestoral teachings from Nephi 4:13,

"Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to brig forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

These scenes unfolded in New York somewhat near the place where Moroni would have deposited the plates. I'm not attempting to use this as evidence for any Book of Mormon lands theory because I tend to lean towards the mesoamerican setting but I do recognize that eventually the plates somehow made it to the Hill Cumorah in upstate NY. Is this similarity in phrases between Bender of Pine Bow and Nephi just a strange coincodence? Maybe someone on these boards has more insight into this story?

A couple of things. First of all, the small plates of Nephi were practically unknown, nor can we say with any confidence that this phrase was contained in the large plates. Second, it probably is nothing more than coincidence. The context is different. In Nephi and John, the question is of killing someone for the group's survival. Here it is of giving up one's own life for the survival of the group.

[nosmelone]

A couple of things. First of all, the small plates of Nephi were practically unknown, nor can we say with any confidence that this phrase was contained in the large plates. Second, it probably is nothing more than coincidence. The context is different. In Nephi and John, the question is of killing someone for the group's survival. Here it is of giving up one's own life for the survival of the group.

Good call, I agree that we don't know if that phrase was located on the large plates or not. I will just consider it coincodence but still a very interesting coincodence in the meantime.