Jesus the Only Begotten Son "in the flesh"

[Ceeboo]

No Barry White.

[Ceeboo]

Although not doctrine today, many members continue to accept the folk-doctrine that the conception was through sexual means.

Really? "Many" members accept that the conception of Christ was through sexual means (As in God and Mary having intercourse? )

Peace,

Ceeboo

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This is wrong on two separate fronts.

Technically, only a father can "sire". Mothers do not. So our Mommies and Daddies did not "sire" us.

The second error is that Brother Brigham and the others to whom you refer were not "pretty clear on how they believed Jesus was sired". They were purposefully ambiguous. This was partly because the subject is simply out of bounds, and partly because the mechanism(s) He employed were not revealed (because out-of -bounds).

They were not making a point about these unknown processes

[thesometimesaint]

BookofMormonLuvr:

As the LDS believe God the Father and God the Son are two different individuals. Your statement leaves some ambiguity.

[Mike Reed]

Really? "Many" members accept that the conception of Christ was through sexual means (As in God and Mary having intercourse? )

Peace,

Ceeboo

Yep. (note that I didn't say most though) The folk-doctrine is more common among older generations of Mormons.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

BookofMormonLuvr:

As the LDS believe God the Father and God the Son are two different individuals. Your statement leaves some ambiguity.

Duly noted.

I still do not believe we are anything but created beings until we accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ and become adopted sons and daughters of God.

[Ceeboo]

Yep. (note that I didn't say most though) The folk-doctrine is more common among older generations of Mormons.

Thanks for the candor Mike,

If I may (If you know or have a guess), how can it be held a virgin birth then?

Peace,

Ceeboo

[semlogo]

Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren (disciples), and say to them, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.' (John 20: 17).

[thesometimesaint]

BookofMormonLuvr:

Yet the Bible has when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalen he tells her to tell the disciples that I go to my father and your father. That to me shows a familial relationship beyond that of our physical bodies.

John 20:10-18

So the disciples went away again to their own homes.

But Mary was standing outside at the tomb weeping. So, as she wept, she stooped and looked into the tomb, and she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head, and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. They told her, "Woman, why are you weeping?"

She said to them, "Because they have taken away my Lord, and I don't know where they have laid him." When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, and didn't know that it was Jesus.

Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Who are you looking for?"

She, supposing him to be the gardener, said to him, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away."

Jesus said to her, "Mary."

She turned and said to him, "Rhabbouni!" which is to say, "Teacher!"

Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had said these things to her.

[Vance]

To those who insist that the teaching is flatly contradicted by scripture, this blog entry I posted last year may be of interest:

Hieros Gamos: The Problem of Virginal Conception

Very well written.

Thanks for sharing.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

BookofMormonLuvr:

Yet the Bible has when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalen he tells her to tell the disciples that I go to my father and your father. That to me shows a familial relationship beyond that of our physical bodies.

John 20:10-18

So the disciples went away again to their own homes.

But Mary was standing outside at the tomb weeping. So, as she wept, she stooped and looked into the tomb, and she saw two angels in white sitting, one at the head, and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. They told her, "Woman, why are you weeping?"

She said to them, "Because they have taken away my Lord, and I don't know where they have laid him." When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, and didn't know that it was Jesus.

Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Who are you looking for?"

She, supposing him to be the gardener, said to him, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away."

Jesus said to her, "Mary."

She turned and said to him, "Rhabbouni!" which is to say, "Teacher!"

Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had said these things to her.

Mary was a righteous woman who followed Jesus on a level that not His own Apostles did. Of course she was adopted into the household of God. Those verses do not alter my belief in any way.

[thesometimesaint]

BookofMormonLuvr:

I've never questioned your beliefs, only the interpretation you put on my beliefs.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

BookofMormonLuvr:

I've never questioned your beliefs, only the interpretation you put on my beliefs.

What false interpretation did I put on your beliefs? You seem to be accusing me of misrepresenting LDS beliefs.

[ElfLord]

Thanks for the candor Mike,

If I may (If you know or have a guess), how can it be held a virgin birth then?

Peace,

Ceeboo

With modern medicine can we not perform a "virgin birth" through other means?

Then why can't Gods DNA end up in marries womb without sexual intercourse?

[Bart Burk]

This has gotten a little off course. I am not concerned about how Jesus was born in the flesh or conceived in the flesh. Unimportant stuff in my mind. I'm concerned about whether or not the term Only Begotten Son only relates to his birth on earth or if it has to do with his unique status as the Only Begotten Son from all eternity. The Mormon scriptures seem to teach the latter is true as all Christians believe.

[Mike Reed]

Thanks for the candor Mike,

You are welcome Ceeboo.

If I may (If you know or have a guess), how can it be held a virgin birth then?

Peace,

Ceeboo

I think the most common rationalization for Mormons who held this view was to redefine the word "virgin" to apply only to an absence of activity with mortal human beings.

As for how this belief can be rationalized scripturally, see the link I gave.

[Mike Reed]

Very well written.

Thanks for sharing.

Thank you Vance, and you are welcome!

Thanks for reading!

[Ceeboo]

I think the most common rationalization for Mormons who held this view was to redefine the word "virgin" to apply only to an absence of activity with mortal human beings.

As for how this belief can be rationalized scripturally, see the link I gave.

Thanks again Mike!

I will give the link a look.

Peace,

Ceeboo

[BookofMormonLuvr]

This has gotten a little off course. I am not concerned about how Jesus was born in the flesh or conceived in the flesh. Unimportant stuff in my mind. I'm concerned about whether or not the term Only Begotten Son only relates to his birth on earth or if it has to do with his unique status as the Only Begotten Son from all eternity. The Mormon scriptures seem to teach the latter is true as all Christians believe.

One of the original revelations given to Joseph Smith (which has been subsequently change in the D&C) said, speaking of the Book of Mormon and Bible, to rely on the things which were written. So, my personal belief is that all teachings must be in plain accord with them or they can either be set aside or rejected (if blatantly contradictory).

[Vance]

This has gotten a little off course. I am not concerned about how Jesus was born in the flesh or conceived in the flesh. Unimportant stuff in my mind. I'm concerned about whether or not the term Only Begotten Son only relates to his birth on earth or if it has to do with his unique status as the Only Begotten Son from all eternity. The Mormon scriptures seem to teach the latter is true as all Christians believe.

The term Only Begotten Son relates to his birth on earth AND with his unique status as the Only Begotten Son from all eternity.

[Bart Burk]

I might add that I believe it is completely legitimate for the LDS in light of their beliefs in the pre-existence to say that Christ's reception of a spirit body was the first step in his incarnation. That does not preclude the possibility that Christ was the Only Begotten Son of the Father prior to his receiving a spirit body. The whole Christ as Brother of Satan is really a trumped up criticism of Mormonism which reflects a misunderstanding of Christ's pre-mortal status.

[Bart Burk]

The term Only Begotten Son relates to his birth on earth AND with his unique status as the Only Begotten Son from all eternity.

I don't have any problem with that as long as LDS accept the second part of your sentence. But is that what LDS really believe?

[thesometimesaint]

Mike Reed:

I don't have much control over what the most common Mormons believe. I do know what the Church actually teaches. That the Church does not teach as doctrine anything other that Jesus was born of a virgin. That Mary did not "know" any man before the birth of Jesus.

[Mike Reed]

Mike Reed:

I don't have much control over what the most common Mormons believe. I do know what the Church actually teaches. That the Church does not teach as doctrine anything other that Jesus was born of a virgin. That Mary did not "know" any man before the birth of Jesus.

The problem is that the Brethren have taught different things from time to time. Not a big deal really. This sort of thing happens in all religion. The good news is that there is room in scripture to allow for both beliefs.

As for the Luke passage you allude to ("I know not a man"), read my blog post's commentary about it. I'd be interested in your feedback. Thanks!

[thesometimesaint]

Mike Reed:

The one I see most commonly amongst the critics is that BY taught that God the Father came down and had sex with Mary, that she was not a virgin.

BY knew, and believed the Bible very well. He fully believed that Mary was a virgin.