Mormon Definitions of Salvation Useful for Compare and Contrast Debate

[coolrok7]

We have things in common of course but underneath it all, we

[David T]

Coolrok, you replied to the comment in which I said, "that discussion would probably best serve a different thread". I said that, because it is a complete sidetrack of the actual purpose of this thread. That being said, your lengthy post included nothing of actual substance that answered the question I posed that I was willing to discuss in another thread, and was filled with general statements of why false prophets are bad, and comparing us to Jehovah's Witnesses.I've started a new thread to allow you to continue that particular topic.

I am, however, looking forward to your responses to this post, in this thread, which does attempt to keep on the subject of this thread.

[coolrok7]

Coolrok, you replied to the comment in which I said, "that discussion would probably best serve a different thread". I said that, because it is a complete sidetrack of the actual purpose of this thread. That being said, your lengthy post included nothing of actual substance that answered the question I posed that I was willing to discuss in another thread, and was filled with general statements of why false prophets are bad, and comparing us to Jehovah's Witnesses.

Jehovah

[David T]

Jehovah

[coolrok7]

I still see no useful reason in bringing a different religious group that post-dates Joseph Smith and Mormonism, and one that you don't agree with to boot, into the discussion.

I still would like your thoughts on my response to your last substantive post on this thread, however.

I'm still working on that as well.

The Jehovah's Witnesses of Charles Taze Russell (their own version of redefining things)followed not long after the time of Joseph Smith's unfortunate demise and follows much of the same disagreements I have with Mormonism and its redefinition of Christian doctrine as well (the same relevance which is my perspective).

[David T]

I'm still working on that as well.

The Jehovah's Witnesses of Charles Taze Russell (their own version of redefining things)followed not long after the time of Joseph Smith's unfortunate demise and follows much of the same disagreements I have with Mormonism and its redefinition of Christian doctrine as well (the same relevance which is my perspective).

Either way, adding a third party into the mix that is in reality unrelated to your or my traditions (and that we both disagree with) is not useful in this type of discussion.

[coolrok7]

Either way, adding a third party into the mix that is in reality unrelated to your or my traditions (and that we both disagree with) is not useful in this type of discussion.

That might be your personal view but the tradition of the Mormon church and the JW organization (they both come to my door with the same basic message, I have to join with them), it is their tradition in their official writings to tell me that I'm wrong on the same points such as the Trinity (as well as others)(salvation by works too):

The

[Skylla]

Please stay on topic.

Skylla

[coolrok7]

Not ignoring you nack, here or at the other thread you started for me. I've been busy with other things (Skylla, answering someone

[David T]

When one is in the company of lying spirits and agrees with them (if that is truly the case) on the same points where they are in disagreement with God, then one is on rather shaky ground.

All of the following are inappropriate and out of place for this thread, whether or not you believe them to be true or not:

a: The accusation that the Jehovah's Witnesses are lying spirits

b: The accusation that the LDS Church is 'in the company of lying spirits'

c: The accusation that The LDS Church 'agrees with lying spirits'

d: The statement that because we do not agree with the 4th Century AD Codified Doctrine of the Trinity-as-one-substance, therefore we are 'in disagreement with God', and thus a 'Lying Spirit'.

There was nothing in that post but accusations, putting down others who disagree with you, and making assertions that:

a) have not yet had anything to do with the topic at hand

b) were not backed up as to why your understanding is more 'in agreement with God'.

While they've been done billions of times here, feel free to start a thread expressing why you believe that Disagreeing with the Nicean Trinity means one is in disagreement with God.

Again - please, from this point on, keep this thread on the topic of addressing the specific topic at hand, concerning the specific doctrines that have been under discussion. Whether our scriptures or doctrine are True is not the point of this thread. Contrasting the teachings and doctrines themself is.

Using other religions as straw-men to lump us in with another Church that we do not associate with does not serve the purpose of the thread. Stop doing it.

I would happy to have an on-topic compare-and-contrast discussion here with a practicing and believing Jehovah's Witness. You are not a Jehovah's Witness, so you and I will not be having that discussion.

You were doing very well with this earlier on, and it was resulting in an edifying discussion.

It does not reflect well on you when you have suddenly stopped participating in the discussion, veer off the subject, and need to rely on insulting assertions instead of a rational discussion of the doctrinal points under discussion.

[coolrok7]

nackhadlow, on 17 November 2010 - 09:56 PM, said:

Either way, adding a third party into the mix that is in reality unrelated to your or my traditions (and that we both disagree with) is not useful in this type of discussion.

I had responded:

That might be your personal view but the tradition of the Mormon church and the JW organization (they both come to my door with the same basic message, I have to join with them), it is their tradition in their official writings to tell me that I'm wrong on the same points such as the Trinity (as well as others)(salvation by works too):

I then provided a list of quotes to back up my statement in which I provided from the various traditions which includes Mormonism in making these same arguments which is part and parcel of discussing salvation and how it is defined and applied to the individual who has the faith to meet the requirements of Biblical salvation.

This was not meant to be a deriding statement directed at you here but a response to your statement in referring to traditions of the different religious traditions groups that make it a point to go door-to-door of which both Mormon missionaries and Jehovah

[coolrok7]

Continuing on, your last statement (ultimately it is more than

[David T]

If one sticks with the way the Bible identifies what salvation actually is then one would come to the correct conclusion of Scripture.

Eternal punishment is taught in the BofM but not the way described above (as far as I know and the Bible for that matter). A book (supposedly translated from gold plates) whose story a few years before it was actually written down was already being told by Joseph to his family.

He certainly was familiar with the Bible (It

[coolrok7]

It's clear you are not interested in discussing and contrasting the actual details of the doctrines any more, but are interested in continuing to preach and be condescending towards the source of our beliefs, using your self-selected references to present 'what we believe', instead of allowing believing members to do so, as I have consistently asked. You constantly avoid the specific questions I ask directed to you, the specific responses to your statements, and instead specifically do the things I ask you not to do in this thread, although I have invited you to open other threads for such discussion.

Your focus is not on the doctrines that are the focus of this thread as I have presented them, but on belittling the source of our doctrines, and saying we can't ever really compare, because we accept more than the Bible. That has nothing to do with the doctrinal concepts themselves. . . .

I am going to request that this thread be closed. I'm done trying with you.

I've been trying to cooperate with your requests so far. I'm not trying to be difficult here. This is entitled Mormon Definitions of Salvation in part also compare and Contrast Debate. I've answered your requests. You even gave me permission to correct in which is what some of this is doing. My apologies to you for your frustration.

Perhaps I'm not understanding the further discussion you are wanting about this earlier statement:

Let me see if I understand your perspective. Again, I seek correction:

The 'old man' is equal to our fallen physical bodies, and 'unregenerated' spirit

The 'new man' means that our spirit within our bodies is instantly tranformed/regenerated to be holy upon Justification/Pronouncment of Sanctification

The purified and holy 'New Man' is now struggling against the still impure flesh, which is never able to be truly overcome in this life

Upon death, if one's spirit has been 'regenerated', because the wicked flesh is gone, the spirit is now pure and holy, and has no more struggle with sin

Also:

See, I think this is a very, very, very important distinction in our beliefs that I don't think most LDS understand. Most LDS don't think in terms of:

Old Man = Depraved and Completely Wicked

Regenerated = New Man, struggling with still present Old Man

Post-mortal New Man = Old Man immediately removed, now Perfect In Every Way

One needs to be able to orient themselves to view the world with this understanding, one can comprehend the Heaven or Hell dichotomy as understood and taught by Evangelicals.

But for most LDS, this is an alien way of thinking - they are not accusted to framing things this way. They view the EV teaching of heaven and hell in connection with their own LDS worldview. They will never be able to understand it by doing this.

That is because for LDS, the World to Come is viewed very much as a continuation of the present system. Who we are when we leave this life is exactly who we are when we leave. Because of this, we don't tend to think in terms of individuals being either 100% Perfect, or 100% Evil. We recognize degrees of development and desires.

[Skylla]

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Mormon Apologetics & Discussion Board Staff