Joseph's apparent contradiction.

[wenglund]

No. I am not asserting that JS was a unitarian in belief on the Godhead. He may have been. He may have held any number of views of the Godhead prevalent at the time. But what seems very unlikely are two things -

1 - He would have expected a two person appearance, on earth, of a distinct being who was God the Father and another who was Jesus the Son.

2 - Because of the unexpectedness of this type of appearance, if it did happen it seems it would be the most important point remembered and described.

I disagree. But to better understand your position. if Joseph believed in three divine persons prior to 1835 (which to me is most likely given his traditional CHristian background), why would it be particularly unexpected for him to be visited by two of those three divine persons rather than just one?

The only way I can reasonably see that it would be particularly unexpected for him to be visited by two divine persons rather than one, is if Joseph only believed in one divine person, or if he believed that only one of the divine persons was capable of appearing to him--neither of which beliefs seem plausible given his traditional Christian background (I have in mind the biblical visions of Stephen and John who saw both the Father and Son).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[maupayman]

The only way I can reasonably see that it would be particularly unexpected for him to be visited by two divine persons rather than one, is if Joseph only believed in one divine person, or if he believed that only one of the divine persons was capable of appearing to him--neither of which beliefs seem plausible given his traditional Christian background (I have in mind the biblical visions of Stephen and John who saw both the Father and Son).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

many christians read the biblical verses mentioned and still only believe there is one being. Joseph could have easily read it in a similar way.

[wenglund]

many christians read the biblical verses mentioned and still only believe there is one being. Joseph could have easily read it in a similar way.

I suppose anything is possible. What I am interested in, though, is what is most probable. Given Joseph's traditional Christian background, which is also consistent with his view throughout the remainder of his life (i.e. that there are three divine entities), I have every reason to believe Joseph didn't read it in a similar way, and no reason to suggest that he did. To my knowledge, there is no explicit statement by Joseph suggesting that he only believed in one divine entity/person. And, all the evidence that may be presented as implying such, are not only traditionally interpreted otherwise, but the principle in this case (Joseph Smith) explicitly says otherwise (see H.'s quote from Joseph earlier in the thread where he states that he has always believe in three personages).

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Pahoran]

many christians read the biblical verses mentioned and still only believe there is one being.

Only because they define being as something quite different from person.

The fact is that the surface meaning of the verses mentioned does not support the "one being" interpretation. It actually takes some fairly sophisticated argumentation to make them do it.

How plausible does it seem to argue that Joseph, at the beginning of his career, without much in the way of formal schooling, was engaging in such sophisticated argumentation, but later on, after he had learned a lot more, he had rejected it and reverted to a more literal reading of the verses in question?

Joseph could have easily read it in a similar way.

Highly unlikely.

Regards,

Pahoran

[maupayman]

I suppose anything is possible. What I am interested in, though, is what is most probable. Given Joseph's traditional Christian background, which is also consistent with his view throughout the remainder of his life (i.e. that there are three divine entities),

Yes, they believe their are three entities. Do traditional christians believe they can appear, standing next to each other?

I have every reason to believe Joseph didn't read it in a similar way, and no reason to suggest that he did. To my knowledge, there is no explicit statement by Joseph suggesting that he only believed in one divine entity/person.

But he could have believed they were different manifestations of the same being.

And, all the evidence that may be presented as implying such, are not only traditionally interpreted otherwise, but the principle in this case (Joseph Smith) explicitly says otherwise (see H.'s quote from Joseph earlier in the thread where he states that he has always believe in three personages).

Now you've switched from entities, to personages.

[maupayman]

Only because they define being as something quite different from person.

The fact is that the surface meaning of the verses mentioned does not support the "one being" interpretation. It actually takes some fairly sophisticated argumentation to make them do it.

Agreed, however, christians rarely do a surface reading of scripture.

How plausible does it seem to argue that Joseph, at the beginning of his career, without much in the way of formal schooling, was engaging in such sophisticated argumentation, but later on, after he had learned a lot more, he had rejected it and reverted to a more literal reading of the verses in question?

I think you are misunderstanding what my point is. Plenty of unsophisticated christians, during Smith's time, thought that the Godhead were three different manifestations of the same being.