Did the ancient Hebrews believe in a preexistence?

[Mudcat]

I understand LDS often refer to passages like Jeremiah 1:4-5 to present a position for the concept for a preexistence through Biblical means.

I am wondering if there is any non-Biblical evidence... through tradition, other Hebraic writings, etc. that might indicate the Hebrews believed in such.

Respectfully,

Mudcat

[Zakuska]

This might be a start...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence

Judaism, Islam and Greeks.

According to this the Ante-Nicene father - Origen beleived in the Pre-existance of the soul.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.xv.xxxiv.html

Our Lord Kerry has here compiled a lot of Rabbinical information you might look at:

http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/council.htm

R.H. Charles demonstrates the Bereshith rabba teaching "God takes counsel with the souls of the righteous before he creates the earth."1 Among these righteous who were in attendance we know of, thanks to the Jewish work, Sefer Haparshiyot, and the Midrash Kee Tov, were Adam, Noah, Abraham, Enoch and Moses. These souls in the council of the gods were said to be "with God before the creation of the world."2 These souls in the premortal-existence "were consulted with and did consult God on many vital matters, and especially on the matter of Creation."3 We are informed that the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch distinguishes between righteous and common souls:

"The storehouses in which the fore-ordained number of souls is kept shall be opened, and the souls shall go forth, and the many souls shall appear all at once, as a host with one mind. And the first shall rejoice, and the last shall not be sad."4 We further learn that the Midrash Tanhuma Pekude tells of some spirits who "kept their first estate" and therefore they were "added upon", that is, they entered into another world which "is more beautiful than this."5 (Cf. Abraham 3: 26)

We will have to chalk all those books up to the back woods in ternet Joseph Smith had access to in "fabricating" the BOA.

[maklelan]

Dana Pike has been presenting on this at SBL for the last couple years. There's clearly a sense of premortal existence in the societies surrounding Israel, but there's very little textual information about Israel outside the Bible, so it's difficult to pin down.

[Mudcat]

Thanks for the links Zak.

[Zakuska]

Heres another on Origens teaching of the prexistance of the soul:

http://www.answers.com/topic/origen

(c. 185-c. 254) Early Christian theologian. Origen produced an elaborate edition of the Old Testament, the Hexapla, in which the Hebrew, the Hebrew transliterated into Greek, and four Greek versions are presented side by side. His work De Principiis covered a range of topics from the point of view of reconciling the philosophy of Plato with Christianity (it is usually thought that Origen the Platonist and Origen the Christian, sometimes distinguished, were one person). He favoured an allegorical approach to the Bible, and defended the pre-existence of souls, the unity of God the father (and lesser divinity of the Son), and the original creation of all spirits as equal. He also allowed that in the end all might be saved, a view that particularly shocked St Jerome: ‘Origen teaches that after many ages and one restoration of all things, Gabriel will be in the same state as the devil, Paul as Caiaphas, and virgins as prostitutes.’ His views were condemned in 400, and then again to make sure in 553 at the second council of Constantinople.

If you ever watched Indiana Jones: Raiders of the lost Ark. You will remember Harrison Ford making reference to the "Well of Souls". This is the Jewish tradition of the pre-existance of the soul.

Wait thats not true....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_of_Souls

According to pre-Islamic folklore, the well of souls was a place where the voices of the dead could be heard along with the sounds of the Rivers of Paradise, as, according to the folklore, the cave is located on top of the Abyss of Chaos; the cave is now known to have no exit apart from those leading to the surface of the Sakhrah, and the sounds have been argued to be a resonance effect similar to hearing the sea from seashells. The well of souls is sometimes conflated with the guf, a location in Jewish mythology, where the souls of the not-yet-born are stored, though the guf is usually considered to be a more heavenly location than an earth-bound one.

The Jewish Tradition was called the "Guf".

Here is the Jewish Tradition of the prexistance of the soul...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guf

In Jewish mysticism, the Chamber of Guf (or Guph or even Gup) (Hebrew for "body" or "corpse") also called the Otzar (Hebrew for "treasury") is the Hall of Souls, located in the Seventh Heaven. Every human soul is held to emanate from the Guf. The Talmud teaches that the Messiah will not come until the Guf is emptied of all its souls (Yevamot 62a).

The mystic significance of the Guf is that each person is important and has a unique role which only he, with his unique soul, can fulfill. Even a newborn baby brings the Messiah closer simply by being born.

In keeping with other Jewish legends that envision souls as bird-like, the Guf is sometimes described as a columbarium, or birdhouse. Folklore says sparrows can see the soul's descent and this explains their joyous chirping.

The peculiar idiom of describing the treasury of souls as a "body" may be connected to the mythic tradition of Adam Kadmon, the primordial man. Adam Kadmon, God's "original intention" for humanity, was a supernal being, androgynous and macro-cosmic (co-equal in size with the universe). When this Adam sinned, humanity was demoted to the flesh and blood, bifurcated and mortal creatures we are now. According to Kabbalah, every human soul is just a fragment (or fragments) cycling out of the great "world-soul" of Adam Kadmon. Hence, every human soul comes from the "guf [of Adam Kadmon]."

[Sargon]

Mudcat,

You asked about extra-biblical evidence for an ancient Hebrew concept of pre-mortality. I'll let others handle that for now. On a related topic, I found Kevin Barney's essay about the pre-existence being found in the bible to be enlightening to me as a wannabe apologist. Barney is reviewing a chapter in Patrick Holding's critical book on various Mormon ideas:

If I understand it correctly, Holdingâ??s argument is that the doctrine of a preexistence of souls cannot be proven from the Bible. If in fact that is what he means to say, then I heartily concur, and to the extent that LDS apologists have claimed biblical passages prove there was a preexistence, I think they go beyond the evidence.

http://www.tektonics.org/mordef/preex.html

[Sargon]

In the essay I mentioned above you can find a list of 21 extra-biblical references to a pre-mortal existence. Because the website I linked to is really more a review of a review, you get to see Barney's response to Holding, and Holding's subsequent response to Barney all at once.

Here it is again: http://www.tektonics.org/mordef/preex.html