Population Density

[gtaggart]

I'm really not trying to pick on beastie here. It's just that she raised a couple of points about which I know very little, so I want to discuss them. Here's another thing she wrote on the metallurgy thread:

Given the fact that Mesoamerica is the only region in the Americas that had a complex civilization and population density the story of the BoM requires, it is a very big deal if it did not take place in Mesoamerica.

Since she wrote that I'd done just a little research, research that involved asking someone else what they thought. That someone said that the Moche date to late Book of Mormon times (northern Peru, AD 100 to AD 800, according to Wikipedia) and had large populations and the Chavin (Andean highlands, 900 BC to 200 BC, again according to Wikipedia) also may have had large populations. My source was speaking from memory, so the population claims I'm presenting are a little fuzzy. I did read later (and I can't remember where right now) that one Chavin city had a population of around 3,000.

Now, I'm not interested in arguing for another possible setting for the Book of Mormon. I have neither the expertise nor the time to do that.

So I want to limit this thread to a discussion of complex civilizations and population density. In particular, were there other civilizations in the western hemisphere that were complex enough and sufficient population and which existed in the proper time period to fit the Book of Mormon?

[charity's child]

So I want to limit this thread to a discussion of complex civilizations and population density. In particular, were there other civilizations in the western hemisphere that were complex enough and sufficient population and which existed in the proper time period to fit the Book of Mormon?

According to the author of 1941, the entire Western hemisphere may have been very, very populated. Trade existed between the great plains and mesoamerica IIRC, there were large numbers of people along the Amazon River - granted this was in the 1400s, but extrapolating from that I think there are many possibilities.

[thesometimesaint]

I doubt that few places other than Mesoamerica in central America and the Incas of the South had the necessary population density for highly developed cultures to originate. Estimates put the population of what was to become all of the contiguous US at roughly 3 million.

[beastie]

Social complexity is determined by population density, not over-all population levels. Population density refers to how many individuals are living within one polity. In order to attain social complexity, a certain number of individuals are required to allow certain things to take place. When this number is reached, for example, division of work often takes place. At simpler levels of social complexity, individual families are largely self-sustaining. Theyâ??re doing everything that has to be done for their family themselves, although members of different families may work together on the same task. But when people group together and find more productive ways of producing food, then other individuals can be released from food-production to other specialized tasks. Some of these tasks eventually become related to luxury items versus simple survival. In addition, working together begins to necessitate hierarchical structures. As the population grows, these factors increase, and the end result is a social group that has certain attributes that simpler societies do not, such as class division and governmental hierarchies. These things can be archaeologically detected.

I shared this overview on my website page here, from Arthur Demarest:

Box 2 Traditional typologies of â??levelâ? of political complexity in human societies

Traditionally archaeologists and anthropologists sought to classify ancient or modern societies in order to facilitate comparison and discussion. The most popular traditional typologies have been those proposed by Morton Fried based on the degree of stratification, i.e. social inequality, in societies, and by Elman Service based on the degree of political and economic integration of societies.

Service: integration typology

Bands: small, loosely integrated groups of hunters and gatherers that possess a common territory in which they move nomadically. They have few differences in wealth or status and are characterized by reciprocal economic relations. Integration is through kinship or marriage.

Tribes: Larger societies, often with agricultural and/or pastoral economies, living in permanent (sedentary) locations. Tribes are often multi-settlement societies integrated by theoretical descent groups and voluntary association organizations (for example, warrior clubs, religious cults, fraternal organizations, etc.)

Chiefdoms: Often larger societies in which social integration is facilitated by the existence of prestigious leaders who direct warfare and storage or redistribution of food. Individuals are ranked in their status according to their degree of kinship relationship to the chief. Chiefdoms sometimes have ceremonial centers as the focus of religious activities, redistribution, and social integration.

States: Societies with highly integrated, organized, and centralized leadership with a governing body or rulers. The power of the ruler is backed by coercive force, law, and/or religious sanctions.

Fried: stratification typology

Egalitarian societies: Simple societies with as many positions of status as there are people to fill them. Wealth, status, and power are acquired, not inherited. There are relatively small differences in wealth, and economic relations are reciprocal in nature.

Ranked societies: Societies in which there are fewer positions of status than individuals to fill them. In some cases there are a fixed number of offices, but the competition to fill them is not entirely hereditary.

Economic differences are somewhat restricted by expectations of redistribution by the societiesâ?? leaders.

Stratified societies: Societies in which positions of status are fixed and largely hereditary. A class structure and coercive force maintain these differences.

[The state]: A special function institution of some stratified societies that legitimizes stratification through governing bodies, laws, and police structures to maintain internal order and control class conflict.

Page 249 from Maps of Time also gives a good overview:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bs_sLdKGS...esult#PPA249,M1

So the question is: what kind of social complexity does the BoM describe?

Iâ??ll be back later to discuss that in more detail.