2 Nephi 25:23 Remix

[J Green]

B Six brought up the beginning of a discussion that never took place because Johnny happened. Specifically, how we look at the "after" in the phrase "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." The word "after" has many uses (adverb, preposition, conjunction, etc.). It's employed some 506 times in 457 verses in the BOM, and they are not all used the same way. We digest it here in the form we usually see it (that of temporal placement), but it is used in many other ways in the BOM. And the concessive "in spite of" definition for "after" is also valid, so I wondered if there were any other verses that might have that feel to it. Here's a possibility in a speech by Amulek:

Alma 10:4-5

4 And behold, I am also a man of no small reputation among all those who know me; yea, and behold, I have many kindreds and friends, and I have also acquired much riches by the hand of my industry.

5 Nevertheless, after all this, I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I said I never had known much of these things; but behold, I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power; yea, even in the preservation of the lives of this people.

To me, "after all this" in the temporal sense has little meaning. It seems to make more sense when taken in the concessive form---i.e.: "In spite of the fact that I have a good reputation, family and friends, and riches, I still haven't known much about God."

Thoughts?

[Tanyan]

B Six brought up the beginning of a discussion that never took place because Johnny happened. Specifically, how we look at the "after" in the phrase "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." The word "after" has many uses (adverb, preposition, conjunction, etc.). It's employed some 506 times in 457 verses in the BOM, and they are not all used the same way. We digest it here in the form we usually see it (that of temporal placement), but is used in many other ways in the BOM. And the concessive "in spite of" definition for "after" is also valid, so I wondered if there were any other verses that might have that feel to it. Here's a possibility in a speech by Amulek:

To me, "after all this" in the temporal sense has little meaning. It seems to make more sense when taken in the concessive form---i.e.: "In spite of the fact taht I have a good reputation, family and friends, and riches, I still haven't known much about God."

Thoughts?

Alma 24:11 .

Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

[J Green]

Hi, Tanyan.

I have seen several ways to interpret the "after all we can do" phrase in 2 Nephi, and yours is a great way to look at it. I personally think that 2 Nephi 25:23 can be taken temporally or concessively and still be an accurate reflection of LDS Doctrine. The goal of the OP, however, is simply to find out if others would agree that there are instances where "after" is used concessively in the BOM. What do you think? Would Amulek's use qualify? If not, why?

Regards

[coolrok7]

B Six brought up the beginning of a discussion that never took place because Johnny happened. Specifically, how we look at the "after" in the phrase "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." The word "after" has many uses (adverb, preposition, conjunction, etc.). It's employed some 506 times in 457 verses in the BOM, and they are not all used the same way. We digest it here in the form we usually see it (that of temporal placement), but is used in many other ways in the BOM. And the concessive "in spite of" definition for "after" is also valid, so I wondered if there were any other verses that might have that feel to it. Here's a possibility in a speech by Amulek:

To me, "after all this" in the temporal sense has little meaning. It seems to make more sense when taken in the concessive form---i.e.: "In spite of the fact taht I have a good reputation, family and friends, and riches, I still haven't known much about God."

Thoughts?

The context for the "after all we can do" is salvation (which in Mormonism is only resurrection being the gift, in which is then referred to as "exaltation" changed into something earned/merited/worked for. "Eternal life" is the gift that can't be earned/merited/worked for!) from which Jospeh plagiarized (like a lot of the BofM is from the Bible) from Ephesians where it is stated:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Based on the Nephi verse of this thread:

. . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon)

Mormonism teaches (and which follows the logic/redefintion involved that):

You May Earn Salvation through Christ (THE PURPOSE OF LIFE pamphlet, p.4)

By revelation, our Savior made known again the plan of salvation and exaltation. Resurrection comes as a gift to every man through Jesus Christ, but the reward of the highest eternal opportunities you must earn. It is not just enough to believe in Jesus Christ. You must work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve, know his laws and live them. (YOUR PRE-EARTH LIFE pamphlet, p.10)

This leads to the following from a teaching manual used within the Mormon Church. In the 1985 Gospel Principles manual, in the chapter on Exaltation, it says the following:

REQUIREMENTS FOR EXALTATION

. . .There are specific ordinances we must have received to be exalted:

1. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the

Church of Jesus Christ.

2. We must receive the Holy Ghost.

3. We must receive the temple endowment.

4. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to the required ordinances, there are also many laws we have to obey to qualify for exaltation--We must . . . (p.291)

This is the way our Heavenly Father became a God. . . .Joseph Smith taught, â??it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . .he was once a man like us, . . .God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself didâ? (p.293; Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-46[King Follet Discourse])

From a temple preparation manual of the Church:

As shown in this chapter our Father in heaven was once a man as we are now, capable of physical death. By obedience to eternal gospel principles, he progressed from one stage of life to another until he attained the state that we call exaltation or godhood. In such a condition, he and our mother in heaven were empowered to give birth to spirit children whose potential was equal to that of their heavenly parents. We are those spirit children. . . .It is this fact that makes marriage in a temple of God such an important step in our eternal progression. Elder Bruce R. McConkie has written this: â??Celestial marriage is a holy and an eternal ordinance;. . .The most important things that any member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ever does in this world are: 1. To marry the right person, by the right authority; and 2., to keep the covenant made in connection with this holy and perfect order of matrimony--thus assuring the obedient persons of an inheritance of exaltation in the celestial kingdom.â? (Mormon Doctrine, p.118) (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Salt Lake City: Church Education System, 1976, p.132)

And this from another Church teaching manualâ??Search These Commandments, subtitled, â??Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guideâ? (Lesson 21, pp. 151-156; 1984), the following is stated (the title of the lesson is: â??God was Once a Man As We Are Nowâ?):

When he was a young man, Lorenzo Snow was promised by the Lord through the Patriach to the Church that through obedience to the gospel he could become as great as God, â??and you cannot wish to be greaterâ? (Eliza R, Snow Smith, Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, 9â??10).

President Lorenzo Snow recorded this experience that occurred when he was still a young elder: â??The Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon meâ??the eyes of my understanding were opened and I saw as clear as the sun at noonday, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man.â? Elder Snow expressed this new found understanding in these words: â?? As man now is God once was. As God now is, man may be.â? Later the Prophet Joseph Smith assured him: â??Brother Snow, that is true gospel doctrine, and is a revelation of God to youâ? (quoted by LeRoi C. Snow, in â??Devotion to Divine Inspiration,â? Improvement Era [June 1919]: 651-56)

The Mormon redefinition of salvation, as contrasted with what the Bible has to say concerning grace, goes directly against the following:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. (Titus 3:4-

And this:

Thus, brothers and sisters, along with the great and free gift of the universal and personal resurrection there is also the personal possibility of meriting eternal life. (The Ensign, Elder Neal A. Maxwell, 1997, p.23)

It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice. . .This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. . . .(AFTER ALL WE CAN DO. . .GRACE WORKS, Robert L. Millet, p.18)

In following the lies of Satan through the Mormonism of Joseph Smith, you arrive at the following:

You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Against the following Biblical warnings:

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, . . .In pointing out these things to the brethren, you will be a good servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound doctrine which you have been following. (1Timothy 4:1 2, 6)

In light of:

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar, and the father of lies. (John 8:44)

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

[J Green]

Hi, Coolrok7

I think you stopped in on the wrong thread. But if you're like me, you probably got lost without stopping and asking for directions. Again, the focus of this OP is not to argue the definition of 2 Nephi 25:23 or to provide space for your rather jejune interpretation of LDS doctrine on salvation and grace---there are a few other threads going that can afford you that pleasure. I'm simply asking if others would agree that Amulek's use of the word "after" is concessive in this instance.

Regards

[coolrok7]

Hi, Coolrok7

I think you stopped in on the wrong thread. But if you're like me, you probably got lost without stopping and asking for directions. Again, the focus of this OP is not to argue the definition of 2 Nephi 25:23 or to provide space for your rather jejune interpretation of LDS doctrine on salvation and grace---there are a few other threads going that can afford you that pleasure. I'm simply asking if others would agree that Amulek's use of the word "after" is concessive in this instance.

Regards

Hi J. Green, with all due respect and regards back, I wasn't lost and others comment in my threads I start without me saying to them how they might respond. I might not always like what they say but it is their prerogative in how they respond. You asked for "thoughts" on your statement, I gave a response here as I have on the other threads that deal with this as an issue. I don't see where it is off topic.

With respect to you as an individual who has the right to believe as you see fit (although I believe it is only one of many wrong choices one can make in the area of religious belief/practice), I'm not buying the answers offered here in this pro-Mormon apologtical and discussion site as contrasted with Biblical teaching and twisting the Bible (of which the Nephi verse in question here does as I offered in my response) in the fashion of the founder of the religion known as "Mormonism". Of which a prominent Church leader has stated:

THE DIVINE MISSION OF JOSEPH SMITH

CHURCH STANDS OR FALLS WITH JOSEPH SMITH

Mormonism, as it is called, must stand or fall on the story of Joseph Smith. He was either a prophet of God, divinely called, properly appointed and commissioned, or he was one of the biggest frauds this world has ever seen. There is no middle ground. If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false, for the doctrines of an imposter cannot be made to harmonize in all particulars with divine truth. If his claims and declarations were built upon fraud and deceit, there would appear many errors and contradictions, which would be easy to detect. The doctrines of false teachers will not stand the test when tried by the accepted standards of measurement, the scriptures. (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, p.188, 1954 edition)

I have a big problem when Mormonism misrepresents what I believe and says things not true about what Lutheran Christians actually teach/believe, based on Biblical doctrine, of which Jospeh distorts in the BofM and which is also done other Church literature (these words are from a Mormon apostle, Bruce R. McConkie at BYU in 1984 speaking to Church memebership):

I wonder how many of us are aware of one of the great religious phenomenon of the ages, one that is now sweeping through Protestant Christianity, as only one other thing has ever done in the whole Christian Era. . . .let me first identify the original heresy that did more than anything else to destroy primitive Christianity.

This first and chief heresy of a now fallen and decadent Christianity- and truly it is the father of all heresies-. . .pertains now to the nature and kind of being that God is. . . .a spirit essence called the Trinity. . . .The adoption of this false doctrine about God effectively destroyed true worship among men and ushered in the age of universal apostasy. . . .

This second heresy-and it is the prevailing delusion and mania that prevails to this day in the great evangelical body of Protestantism-is the doctrine that we are justified by faith alone, without the works of the law. . . .It is the doctrine that we may be born again simply by confessing the Lord Jesus with our lips while we continue to live in our sins.

In its teachings, the Mormon Church does go negative against â??other Christians.â? This is collectively a daily practice, on a worldwide basis by 50,000+ missionaries and Church members. I have a big problem with that when it is directed at what (I believe) the Bible teaches (of which Elder McConkies above words are in agreement):

Following the death of the apostles, revelation ceased. The authority of God was no longer among men. Christianity sickened and died. In time, a new religion grew up in its placeâ??a religion that professed to be Jesus Christâ??s Church, but which in reality was a conglomerate of pagan worship and Greek philosophy, â??having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.â?. . .that eventually led to the complete apostasy of the true church and the eventual creation of an apostate religion that has been responsible for the extermination of the Messiahâ??s true followers and the persecution of his chosen people, the Jews. . . . (APOSTASY AND RESTORATION pamphlet, p.9)

As a member of the Mormon Church organization, you are as accountable (as an individual) when you affirm your Church's leadership in Conference twice a year.

[urroner]

So Coolrok, simply by saying that it is the only Church with the Priesthood of God, it's going negative on all other churches and it's wrong to do such?

[coolrok7]

So Coolrok, simply by saying that it is the only Church with the Priesthood of God, it's going negative on all other churches and it's wrong to do such?

I didn't say that, it is the Mormon Churches claim. Its wrong to teach against Biblical teaching as Mormonism does.

[Tanyan]

I didn't say that, it is the Mormon Churches claim. Its wrong to teach against Biblical teaching as Mormonism does.

.

[Grothar]

I didn't say that, it is the Mormon Churches claim. Its wrong to teach against Biblical teaching as Mormonism does.

I retract my CFR, I don't want you posting more of that blige here

Grothar, is so angry he forgot his signature line

[J Green]

Hi, everyone. Let me introduce myself. My name is Joey Green. I like Jane Austen novels, playing my guitar, and visiting obscure outposts in eastern Paktika. Oh, yes, I'm also the author of the thread.

I asked a question, and so far, coolrok7 has unloaded several manuscripts-better-off-not-found without even addressing the OP. And others have dropped in to post comments about coolrok. Yet nobody has tackled the actual question. To wit: is Alma 10:4-5 an instance where we can agree that a concessive reading of "after" is called for? If not, why not? Anyone willing to give it a shot, or should I just use a Magic 8-ball?

Regards

[robuchan]

Hi, everyone. Let me introduce myself. My name is Joey Green. I like Jane Austen novels, playing my guitar, and visiting obscure outposts in eastern Paktika. Oh, yes, I'm also the author of the thread.

I asked a question, and so far, coolrok7 has unloaded several manuscripts-better-off-not-found without even addressing the OP. And others have dropped in to post comments about coolrok. Yet nobody has tackled the actual question. To wit: is Alma 10:4-5 an instance where we can agree that a concessive reading of "after" is called for? If not, why not? Anyone willing to give it a shot, or should I just use a Magic 8-ball?

Regards

I agree with you. I think it does.

I also think the Alma 24:11 verse deserves some analysis. Based on the way Tanyan threw it out there, it obviously has been discussed here before. Alma 24:11 is equally ambiguous as 2 Ne 25:23. I'm not sure if Tanyan meant it to support or discredit the "in spite of" interpretation.

[J Green]

Hi, robuchan.

If I had a door prize for this thread, you'd win. Just for answering the question.

I too am intrigued by Alma 24:11. Here are a few other BOM verses that are similar in scope in terms of referencing doing all things in a context of grace and faith:

Alma 26:12

12 Yea, I know that I am nothing; as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever.

Alma 33:23

23 And now, my brethren, I desire that ye shall plant this word in your hearts, and as it beginneth to swell even so nourish it by your faith. And behold, it will become a tree, springing up in you unto everlasting life. And then may God grant unto you that your burdens may be light, through the joy of his Son. And even all this can ye do if ye will. Amen.

Moroni 10:23

23 And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me.

I'm also intrigued by the hardened stands people take on the interpretation of "after." English is a polysemous language, just like the original BOM source language would have been. Matching up meaning elements from one to the other is a tricky business. When others are convinced they know exactly what was meant simply by looking at a word in English that could mean several different things, I like to see what makes them tick.

Regards

[coolrok7]

Hi, everyone. Let me introduce myself. My name is Joey Green. I like Jane Austen novels, playing my guitar, and visiting obscure outposts in eastern Paktika. Oh, yes, I'm also the author of the thread.

I asked a question, and so far, coolrok7 has unloaded several manuscripts-better-off-not-found without even addressing the OP. And others have dropped in to post comments about coolrok. Yet nobody has tackled the actual question. To wit: is Alma 10:4-5 an instance where we can agree that a concessive reading of "after" is called for? If not, why not? Anyone willing to give it a shot, or should I just use a Magic 8-ball?

Regards

You invited thoughts concerning this remix of the other threads in the context of "after all we can do" (being added to Pauls statement of being saved by grace, not by works).

The source of the BofM is the mouth of Joseph Smith. he authored it all. Asking these types of questions is to not recognize this as a made up story plagiarizing from King James English, adding at will by Joseph to/using the King James Bible (indicated by what storytelling ability Joseph had as stated by his mother befor he even had the so-called golden plates):

During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly as if he had spent his whole life among them. On the twenty-second of September, 1824, Joseph again visited the place where he found the plates the year previous; . . .

An answer in advance of posting this response after seeing the following as one of the last ten posts

I'm also intrigued by the hardened stands people take on the interpretation of "after." English is a polysemous language, just like the original BOM source language would have been. Matching up meaning elements from one to the other is a tricky business. When others are convinced they know exactly what was meant simply by looking at a word in English that could mean several different things, I like to see what makes them tick.

In light of the following concerning the official translation being the King James Version of the Bible (of which the BofM is plagiarized from and distorts):

First Presidency Statement on the King James Version of the Bible

The First Presidency has released the following letter regarding the King James Version of the Bible.

â??First Presidency Statement on the King James Version of the Bible,â? Ensign, Aug. 1992, 80

Since the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has used the King James Version of the Bible for English-speaking members.

The Bible, as it has been transmitted over the centuries, has suffered the loss of many plain and precious parts. â??We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.â?? (A of F 1:8.)

Many versions of the Bible are available today. Unfortunately, no original manuscripts of any portion of the Bible are available for comparison to determine the most accurate version. However, the Lord has revealed clearly the doctrines of the gospel in these latter-days. The most reliable way to measure the accuracy of any biblical passage is not by comparing different texts, but by comparison with the Book of Mormon and modern-day revelations.

While other Bible versions may be easier to read than the King James Version, in doctrinal matters latter-day revelation supports the King James Version in preference to other English translations. All of the Presidents of the Church, beginning with the Prophet Joseph Smith, have supported the King James Version by encouraging its continued use in the Church. In light of all the above, it is the English language Bible used by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

The LDS edition of the Bible (1979) contains the King James Version supplemented and clarified by footnotes, study aids, and cross-references to the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. These four books are the standard works of the Church. We encourage all members to have their own copies of the complete standard works and to use them prayerfully in regular personal and family study, and in Church meetings and assignments.

Sincerely your brethren,

Ezra Taft Benson

Gordon B. Hinckley

Thomas S. Monson

Why the intrigue?

[J Green]

Hi, coolrok7.

Is English your native language? THAT is somewhat intriguing right now. What are your thoughts on the "after" in Alma 10:4-5?

Regards

[coolrok7]

Hi, coolrok7.

Is English your native language? THAT is somewhat intriguing right now. What are your thoughts on the "after" in Alma 10:4-5?

Regards

Yes. English is all I speak/understand unless I can have another language translated to the equivalent of English. The BofM has alraedy supposedly been translated into English by the aid of a "seer stone" (which lights up in the bottom of the hat that Joseph had up around his face so as to read the words in light on this stone and simply read those words acording to eyewitnesses of Joseph doing this.

Oliver B. Huntington recorded in his journal that in 1881 Joseph F. Smith, who became the sixth President of the Mormon Church, taught that the Lord gave Joseph Smith the exact English wording and spelling that he should use in the Book of Mormon (unless you want to infer this is not true in light of other sorces saying much the same thing):

Saturday Feb. 25, 1881, I went to Provo to a quarterly Stake Conference. Heard Joseph F. Smith describe the manner of translating the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith the Prophet and Seer, which was as follows as near as I can recollect the substance of his description. Joseph did not render the writing on the gold plates into the English language in his own style of language as many people believe, but every word and every letter was given to him by the gift and power of God. So it is the work of God and not of Joseph Smith, and it was done in this way. . . .The Lord caused each word spelled as it is in the Book to appear on the stones in short sentences or words, and when Joseph had uttered the sentence or word before him and the scribe had written it properly, that sentence would disappear and another appear. And if there was a word wrongly written or even a letter incorrect the writing on the stones would remain there. Then Joseph would require the scribe to spell the reading of the last spoken and thus find the mistake and when recorded the sentence would disappear as usual. (Journal of Oliver B. Huntington, p.168 of typed copy at Utah State Historical Society)

Or I can read a greek interlinear translation of the Bible which is more important to me when it comes to the Bible being the only Scripture I recognize.

From LDS.org:

And behold, I am also a man of no small reputation among all those who know me; yea, and behold, I have many kindreds and friends, and I have also acquired much riches by the hand of my industry. Nevertheless, after all this, I never have known much of the ways of the Lord, and his mysteries and marvelous power. I said I never had known much of these things; but behold, I mistake, for I have seen much of his mysteries and his marvelous power; yea, even in the preservation of the lives of this people. (Alma 10:4-5)

To me it is just the (coherent at times) ramblings of a false prophet plagiarizing from the King James Bible. It doesn't mean anything to me because it didn't exist until it came out of Joseph's mouth and written down by the numerous so-called scribes in Mormonism's own historical writings.

Have you read the Qu'ran of Muhammad who also claimed way before Joseph Smith did that he was a prophet of God as well. Note the following:

THE MUSLIM WITNESS- Islam means total submission to the commands and will of Allah, Who is the only true God. The first and greatest teaching of Islam is proclaimed by the Shahada (confession): La ilaha illa 'llah Muhammadun rasul Allah. This means: There is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. It is this very confession, which once uttered sincerely and followed completely, makes one a real Muslim (Islam and Christianity, p.1)

Muhammad, a forty-year old native of the city, heard three Arabic words that were soon to shake the world: â??You are the messenger of Godâ? (Mohammad, pp.73-74, Maxine Rodinson, trans Anne Carter (New York: Random 1974)).

Thus at the age of forty Muhammad was living a serene life, surrounded by affection, respected by all, and could have gone on living happily the rest of his life. The mystical experience in the hill of Hirra', however, interrupted it all. He ran from the cave and threw himself over a precipice when suddenly He saw Gabriel â??in the form of a man, with his feet astride the horizon.â? In the stress of the great emotion caused by the vision, His face covered with sweat, Muhammad was seized with a violent shuddering and lay unconscious for some time (World Order, Fall 1980/Winter 1981, p.11; Bahai- an offshoot of Islam).

Muhammad (PBUH) used to visit the cave (ghar) of Hira frequently for spiritual meditation. . . .The first revelation had descended on Muhammad (PBUH) through the angel Jibril (Gabriel). In this way Muhammad (PBUH) overcome with fear, hurried home and related to his beloved Khadija all that had happened. She comforted him assuring him that what he had received was true revelation from Allah. . . .The first revelation was shortly followed by a second one, which came to Muhammad (PBUH) when he was shivering and had been covered by a mantle at home. The command was: â??O thou enveloped in thy cloak, Arise and warn! Thy Lord magnifyâ??. . .(Qur'an 74:1-3). Muhammad (PBUH), through Allahâ??s Word, had been chosen to spread His message (Islam and Christianity, p.41).

The Qur'an testifies that there has been earlier revelation before it. It says: He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel aforetime, for a guidance to mankind (Qur'an 3:3-4a). . . .Therefore, the Qur'an, as the final revelation, is the perfection and culmination of all the truth contained in the earlier Scriptures (Revelations). . . .The purpose of the Qur'an is to guard the previous revelations by restoring the eternal truth of Allah. . . .The Qur'an is a unique Book of Divine guidance. The Qur'an is the very Word of Allah. It was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), through the archangel Jibril (Gabriel) from an archetype preserved in the seventh heaven. . . .What is especially surprising is that the Qur'an was revealed to Muhammad who was unlettered (Islam and Christianity, pp.26-27).

The important role bestowed on the Prophet Isa (PBUH) did not make him â??Son of Godâ?? or single him out as the only saviour for mankind. . . .The Christian witness that man is forgiven because of the crucifixion of Jesus is not in line with the Muslim belief. The end of the Prophet Isa (PBUH) on earth is blanketed in mystery, . . .On this issue the Qur'an tells us: That they said (in boast); We killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God! But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them; and those who differ, therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow. For surety, they killed him not. Nay Allah raised him unto Himself; and Allah is ever Mighty wise (Qur'an 4:157-58). . . .Islam does not identify with the Christian conviction that man needs to be redeemed. The Christian belief in the redemptive sacrificial death of Christ does not fit the Islamic view. (Islam and Christianity, pp.140-41)

I'm not at all impressed by the BofM.

[consiglieri]

I'm not at all impressed by the BofM.

I hope you won't be offended to learn I feel the same way about you.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[coolrok7]

I hope you won't be offended to learn I feel the same way about you.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I was speaking to Joey. You are of course free to comment. I don't take personal offense. I wasn't seeking how you "feel" about me. Especially when you don't personally know me except for what I've posted that you've read which isn't really knowing me at all.

Can you answer the post to Joey concerning Muhammad in spite of how you feel?

[shalamabobbi]

What are your thoughts on the "after" in Alma 10:4-5?

reading the 6th verse makes the "in spite of all this" meaning clear here.

[J Green]

I hope you won't be offended to learn I feel the same way about you.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

coolrok7's attempts at cornering the thread remind me of the scene at Rosings in Pride and Prejudice, where the domineering Lady Catherine tries to monopolize the group discussion: "I must have my share in the conversation!"

[J Green]

reading the 6th verse makes the "in spite of all this" meaning clear here.

Agreed. Nice observation.

[coolrok7]

coolrok7's attempts at cornering the thread remind me of the scene at Rosings in Pride and Prejudice, where the domineering Lady Catherine tries to monopolize the group discussion: "I must have my share in the conversation!"

Participating in a conversation when asked for thoughts on the topic is no diferent on any other thread I've been in. It seems to me that this board is for discussing things concerning Mormon apologetics. It doesn't require the synde comments that is typical here (on either side). You don't have to like what is said but can't you answer the point?

[J Green]

You don't have to like what is said but can't you answer the point?

Congrats, coolrok, you finally figured it out. So, care to offer your opinion on Alma 10:4-5?

[coolrok7]

Congrats, coolrok, you finally figured it out. So, care to offer your opinion on Alma 10:4-5?

It's a made up book that came out of Joseph Smith, it doesn't matter what it says, even in context. The verse where after all we can do was added to the Ephesians verse of Paul where it does say, "not by works" not "after all we can do". Salvation is "eternal life" not exaltation earned/merited/worked for. I answer the statement in my way according to the truth of the matter, not necessarily the way you might want me to.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Not (the teachings of a false prophet):

. . .it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do. . . (2 Nephi 25:23b; JOSEPH SMITH JUNIOR, AUTHOR AND PROPRIETER- from the first printing of the Book of Mormon)

We do good works because we are saved, sanctified or set apart for works of service which is our reasonable worship!

[Tanyan]

We are Saved by Charis [Grace] alone though [Pistis] Faith Alone, the definition of "Faith" [Pistis] as used by you is not how the Anchient Saints Read/Understood "Faith" Pistis. we believe that Grace is a "Gift", and it needs to be unwrapped/used in rightiousness to bless the one useing it and those who's lives it touches as used by the individual themself. Law Of The Harvest.

We do good works to show we want to stay Saved [No Eternal Security] and to give Glory to God and Jesus Christ.

Your statements about the BofM authorship are as those of the Atheist/Humanist house that say the same thing about the Bible that they are stories bound together written by men.

Bruce R. McConkie:Salvation Comes In And Through His Atoning Blood And In No Other Way.

April 1985 General Conference, last talk he gave about The LORD OF LIFE JESUS CHRIST.

In His Debt/Grace, Tanyan LDS JEDI KNIGHT.