Were the Jaredites Olmec ?

[Olavarria]

Place and Time, Place and Time.............those are our magic words. In order to locate the Jaredites in Ancient America, we need to look in the right place and the right time.

Place

If we wanted to do this the right way we would have to 1)make an internal map of the BoM and then 2)compare it to map of North and South America to see where it would fit. But this is MADB and not JBMS and it has been done before. I refer you to An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon.

So I will ask: what does the book say? What did Joseph say?

The Book

Alma 22:31-32

30) And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing.

31) And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.

32) And now, it was only the distance of a day and a halfâ??s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

Ether 7: 6

6) Now the land of Moron, where the king dwelt, was near the land which is called Desolation by the Nephites.

Alma 52:9

9 And he also sent orders unto him that he should fortify the land Bountiful, and secure the narrow pass which led into the land northward, lest the Lamanites should obtain that point and should have power to harass them on every side.

Ether 9: 31, 33

31 And there came forth poisonous serpents also upon the face of the land, and did poison many people. And it came to pass that their flocks began to flee before the poisonous serpents, towards the land southward, which was called by the Nephites Zarahemla.

Ether 10: 20

20) And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land.

Ether 10: 21

21) And they did preserve the land southward for a wilderness, to get game. And the whole face of the land northward was covered with inhabitants.

From these quotes, we can conclude that the Jaredites lived "northward" of the narrow neck of land and "by" it.

Joseph Smith Jr.

Since critics of the Book of Mormon accuse Joseph Smith as having wrote it and believers in the book know him to be a Prophet of God and not the writer, it seems appropriate to ask his latest view regarding the location of the "narrow neck" of land.

][W]e have found another important fact relating to the truth of the Book of Mormon. Central America, or Guatimala [Guatemala], is situated north of the Isthmus of Darien and once embraced several hundred miles of territory from north to south.-The city of Zarahemla, burnt at the crucifixion of the Savior, and rebuilt afterwards, stood upon this land as will be seen from the following words in the book of Alma...It is certainly a good thing for the excellency and veracity, of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon, that the ruins of Zarahemla have been found where the Nephites left them: and that a large stone with engravings upon it as Mosiah said; and a 'large round stone, with the sides sculptured in hieroglyphics,' as Mr. Stephens has published, is also among the left remembrances of the, (to him,) lost and unknown. We are not going to declare positively that the ruins of Quirigua are those of Zarahemla, but when the land and the stones, and the books tell the story so plain, we are of opinion, that it would require more proof than the Jews could bring to prove the disciples stole the body of Jesus from the tomb, to prove that the ruins of the city in question, are not one of those referred to in the Book of Mormon...It will not be a bad plan to compare Mr. Stephens' ruined cities with those in the Book of Mormon: light cleaves to light, and facts are supported by facts.

John Taylor (editor),"Zarahemla," Times and Seasons 3/23 (1 October 1842): 927 NOTE: Page 942 of this issue of the Times and Seasons states: "The Times and Seasons, Is edited, printed and published about the first fifteenth of every month, on the corner of Water and Bain Streets, Nauvoo, Hancock County, Illinois, by JOSEPH SMITH."

Joseph Smith belived that Zerahemla was in Guatemala, north of where the Panama canal is today. That would disqualify the isthmus of Panama from being the "narrow neck",in his view. The Other only plausable cadnidate would be the isthmus of Tehuantepec. This means that the Jaredites lived "northward" and "by" the isthmus of Tehuantepec, as implyed by Joseph's latest view.

Time

To know the time of the Jaredites we must look at the latest Jaredites on record and then count backward.

This leaves Coriantmr and Ether.

Here are generations of a Jaredite ruling lineage from Lib to Ether.

Ether Chapter 1:17-30

Lib

Hearthom

Heth**

Aaron**

Amnigaddah

Coriantum

Com

Shiblon

Seth

Ahah

Ethem

Moron

Coriantor

Ether

**Ether 1: 15-17

13) And Com was the son of Coriantum.

14) And Coriantum was the son of Amnigaddah.

15) And Amnigaddah was the son of Aaron.

16) And Aaron was a descendant of Heth, who was the son of Hearthom.

17) And Hearthom was the son of Lib.

**Ether 10:29-31

29) And it came to pass that Lib did live many years, and begat sons and daughters; and he also begat Hearthom.

30) And it came to pass that Hearthom reigned in the stead of his father. And when Hearthom had reigned twenty and four years, behold, the kingdom was taken away from him. And he served many years in acaptivity, yea, even all the remainder of his days.

31) And he begat Heth, and Heth lived in captivity all his days. And Heth begat Aaron, and Aaron dwelt in captivity all his days; and he begat Amnigaddah, and Amnigaddah also dwelt in captivity all his days; and he begat Coriantum, and Coriantum dwelt in captivity all his days; and he begat Com.

Now, the trickier part, some Jaredite kings lived really long lives. Several kings are described as being "exceedingly old" and having children in their old age, with at least one king living past 100 years(Ether 7:7 and 9:23,24)! So, how many years were in 14 generations? We don't know; we will have to approximate. In "Who Are the Children of Lehi?", Trent D. Stephens gives us an example from his own family history. His "paternal family line goes back only 13 generations before reaching a dead end, to Henry Stephens, born in England in 1497"; in his family history, 13 generations equals 500 years(2). Using this unrepresentative sample, we will esimate Jaredite dates.

When did the Jaredites ruling lineage fall?

"If Ether 11:20â??21 indeed precedes the arrival of the Israelite group Coriantumr could not have lived no earlier than 580 B.C"(1). If Coriantmr died 1 day before Mosiah's group arrived then he could not have lived later than 200bc.

Answer: 600bc-200bc.

After Lib, when did Jaredite culture experience a major decline?

900bc-500bc; Ether 11:5-7

When did the Jaredites peak as a culture?

Answer: 1100bc-700bc; Ether 10:28

When did the Jaredites start to "go into the land southward"?

Answer: 1100bc-700bc; Ether 10:19

When did Lib build his city on the narrow neck of land?

Answer: 1100bc-700bc; Ether 10:20

As implied by Joseph SMith, the Jaredites lived on the Strait of Tehuantepec. What they experiened from the time of Lib to Ether has already been described. The culture we call the Olmec lived on the Strait of Tehuantepec during the same times; lets see what they experienced during those times.

OLMEC TIME (3)

2500-1500BC: The first farming villages in Mesoamerica appear. Settlers raise maize, chili peppers, squash and cotton.

1500-1200BC: Olmec build San Lorenzo.

1100BC: After centuries of habitation, a second Olmec city is built at La Venta.

900BC: Olmec spread into areas east of Tehuantepec(4).

900BC: The Olmec site of San Lorenzo is destroyed.

c. 400 BC: The Olmec site of La Venta on the Gulf coast is destroyed. In the Valley of Mexico, Cuicuilco becomes an important city.

Hey, are you telling me that the Olmec are the Jaredites?

No, I am saying that the Jaredites were participants in Olmec culture. For example, the "Colonia Juarezites" might rightly be called Mexicans, but almost no Mexicans are Colonia Juarezites. Both the Jaredites and Olmec were affected by the same periods of war, drought and prosperity,just as the Colonia Juarezites are affected by the same things that the rest of northern Mexicans were/are.

Sources

1) http://ispart.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=28

2) Who Are the Children of Lehi? D. Jeffrey Meldrum, and Trent D. Stephens. Journal of Book of Mormon Studies: Volume - 12, Issue - 1Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 2003

3)Charles Phillips, Complete Illustrated History of the Aztec and Maya; Lorenz Books (June 25, 2007), pg 24.

4)John Clark says:

"Given what little is known of Jaredite settlement, we need to be careful not to imagine that we know more than we do. Second, the text states that the land southward was opened up during the days of King Lib. It is worth pointing out that the explosion of Olmec influence east of Tehuantepec (Sorenson's land southward) occurred after 900 BC, with only spotty influence before. I think the text can be read as indicating that the south lands opened up at this time, with colonization being part of the package."

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=2&id=545

[Olavarria]

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[Cold Steel]

Nice observations and there's a great deal to what you say, I think.

I'm reading a number of books on Book of Mormon geography and am impressed how well the Book of Mormon stands together in its consistency. When I joined the church, I naturally assumed the Book of Mormon lands were in the Great Lakes area and wondered whether the lands extended down into Pennsylvania and such. During the cold parts of the year, when being outdoors for only a few moments was unbearable, I wondered how the Nephites and Lamanites lived in such weather. I also was bothered when critic friends brought up how no remnants of any great battle had been found around the New York "Cumorah." After all, there are still bits of armor, buckles and other parts of the two Roman legions led by Marcus Q. Varres that were waylaid in Germany during the time of Augustus. Why wouldn't there be remains of armor, etc., in New York?

Still, I was convinced the Book of Mormon was true, so I just set it on a shelf in the back of my mind and made a small leap of faith. Now as I read the Book of Mormon, I feel a bit foolish for not having picked up on what are now obvious geographic elements, and yet I'm still a bit disappointed that the great battles weren't in New York.

Well, there were people living in New York and down the eastern parts of the U.S. I imagine they didn't live very long and that they never were very advanced (certainly not as advanced as peoples living in Mesoamerica). Still, Moroni was a tourist and this wasn't his land up here in the North.

Based on what I've read, I believe the Jaredite civilization was a large part of the Olmecs.

[Olavarria]

Just for fun, I averaged out my dates. So now you can say "xyz BC, give or take 200 years".

When did the Jaredites ruling lineage fall?

"If Ether 11:20â??21 indeed precedes the arrival of the Israelite group Coriantumr could not have lived no earlier than 580 B.C"(1). If Coriantmr died 1 day before Mosiah's group arrived then he could not have lived later than 200bc.

Answer: 400bc, give or take 200 years.

After Lib, when did Jaredite culture experience a major decline?

700bc,give or take 200 years. Ether 11:5-7

When did the Jaredites peak as a culture?

Answer: 900bc,give or take 200 years. Ether 10:28

When did the Jaredites start to "go into the land southward"?

Answer: 900bc,give or take 200 years. Ether 10:19

When did Lib build his city on the narrow neck of land?

Answer: 900bc,give or take 200 years. Ether 10:20

OLMEC TIME (3)2500-1500BC: The first farming villages in Mesoamerica appear. Settlers raise maize, chili peppers, squash and cotton.

1500-1200BC: Olmec build San Lorenzo.

1100BC: After centuries of habitation, a second Olmec city is built at La Venta.

900BC: Olmec spread into areas east of Tehuantepec(4).

900BC: The Olmec site of San Lorenzo is destroyed.

c. 400 BC: The Olmec site of La Venta on the Gulf coast is destroyed. In the Valley of Mexico, Cuicuilco becomes an important city.

[Olavarria]

Well, there were people living in New York and down the eastern parts of the U.S. I imagine they didn't live very long and that they never were very advanced (certainly not as advanced as peoples living in Mesoamerica). Still, Moroni was a tourist and this wasn't his land up here in the North.

Dont beat yourself up. Pre-Classic mesoamerican civ isnt exactly common knowledge today. Back in Joseph's day, it wasnt common knowledge either.....hell, it wasnt even known.

[Cold Steel]

Yes, on another thread we're discussing the testimony of John Spalding, who after Joseph Smith had been dead for some time, indicated that his father, Solomon Spalding, had written the original Book of Mormon to explain the vast civilizations that existed there. Not only was it almost totally unknown in his father's day, the full extent of the Book of Mormon's description wasn't known until after John Spalding was long dead. Even Joseph wasn't aware of the great cities until 1842, when he identified that culture as being the same as the Nephite record chronicles. He knew the cultures well from his revelations, but he didn't know exactly where they were until he saw the first sketchings.

In the 70s and 80s we still didn't have enough information to really prove these cities had a clear tie in with the Book of Mormon, which is probably one reason the church removed the photos of ancient Mesoamerican cities from the Book of Mormon. Now that we have more info, we ought to put new photos in.

[Olavarria]

Yes, on another thread we're discussing the testimony of John Spalding, who after Joseph Smith had been dead for some time, indicated that his father, Solomon Spalding, had written the original Book of Mormon to explain the vast civilizations that existed there. Not only was it almost totally unknown in his father's day, the full extent of the Book of Mormon's description wasn't known until after John Spalding was long dead. Even Joseph wasn't aware of the great cities until 1842, when he identified that culture as being the same as the Nephite record chronicles. He knew the cultures well from his revelations, but he didn't know exactly where they were until he saw the first sketchings.

In the 70s and 80s we still didn't have enough information to really prove these cities had a clear tie in with the Book of Mormon, which is probably one reason the church removed the photos of ancient Mesoamerican cities from the Book of Mormon. Now that we have more info, we ought to put new photos in.

Ya, as for the Spalding thing...where is the proto-BoM? No one has one, or has ever produced one.

And dont forget anti rule #35, a mormon's testimony of foundational events doesnt count. Therefore Rigdon can testify 1,000 times that he didnt lay eyes on Joseph or the BoM until he met the missionary Oliver Cowdery but it doesnt matter.

As I recall the old BoM's also had pictures of Peru in there, not to mention Classic sites which are outside of BoM space and time.

If they did put pictures back into it then they should limit themselves to pre-classic sites described by Sorenson.

[Cold Steel]

Absolutely. I agree.

If they know Palenque was a Book of Mormon city, they should be in that part of the world. Still, the Palenque that's there now is probably a city built on an older city. But there are lots of good people who know their stuff that could help them out.

[Olavarria]

Absolutely. I agree.

If they know Palenque was a Book of Mormon city, they should be in that part of the world. Still, the Palenque that's there now is probably a city built on an older city. But there are lots of good people who know their stuff that could help them out.

As far as I know, Palenque is not a BoM city. Palenque is too late. The earliest recorded king for Palenque, Kuk Balaam 1 started reigning in 431ad.

[Olavarria]

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[Olavarria]

last bump...i promise