Following The Living Prophet/president Of The Church

[Olavarria]

Mormon Fundamentalist have a method: only use the scriptures and quote Presidents of the Church and/or Prophets who were polygamists, because that is where you get the "pure" mormonism.

OK, lets see what they say.

D&C 112:20,21,30

20) Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my nameâ??s sake unto you.

21) And again, I say unto you, that whosoever ye shall send in my name, by the voice of your brethren, the Twelve, duly recommended and authorized by you, shall have power to open the door of my kingdom unto any nation whithersoever ye shall send themâ??

30) For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the dfulness of times.

D&C 107:23,24

23) The atwelve traveling councilors are called to be the Twelve Apostles, or special cwitnesses of the name of Christ in all the worldâ??thus differing from other officers in the church in the duties of their calling.

24) And they form a quorum, equal in authority and power to the three presidents previously mentioned.

Ask your self, what did the Quorum of the 12 do after the death of every Church President? Ordain and set apart a new Church President. When JFS died, who did the 12 ordain and set apart as the new Church President? Heber J. Grant, the Prophet of God.

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. (Sixty-first Semiannual General Conference of the Church, Monday, October 6, 1890, Salt Lake City, Utah. Reported in Deseret Evening News, October 11, 1890, p. 2.)

â??I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy(Heber C. Kimball, Deseret News, Apr. 2, 1856, p. 26; spelling and capitalization modernized).â?

â??The Presidents or [First] Presidency are over the Church; and revelations of the mind and will of God to the Church, are to come through the Presidency. This is the order of heaven, and the power and privilege of [the Melchizedek] Priesthood. It is also the privilege of any officer in this Church to obtain revelations, so far as relates to his particular calling and duty in the Church.â? History of the Church, 2:477; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Apr. 6, 1837, in Kirtland, Ohio; reported by Messenger and Advocate, Apr. 1837, p. 487.

â??I then made a short address, and called upon the several quorums, and all the congregation of Saints, to acknowledge the [First] Presidency as Prophets and Seers, and uphold them by their prayers. They all covenanted to do so, by rising.

â??I then called upon the quorums and congregation of Saints to acknowledge the Twelve Apostles, who were present, as Prophets, Seers, Revelators, and special witnesses to all the nations of the earth, holding the keys of the kingdom, to unlock it, or cause it to be done, among them, and uphold them by their prayers, which they assented to by rising.

â??I next called upon the quorums and congregation of Saints to acknowledge the presidents of Seventies â?¦ and to uphold them by their prayers, which they did by rising. â?¦

â??The vote was unanimous in every instance, and I prophesied to all, that inasmuch as they would uphold these men in their several stations, â?¦ the Lord would bless them; yea, in the name of Christ, the blessings of heaven should be theirs.â?History of the Church, 2:417â??18; from a Joseph Smith journal entry, Mar. 27, 1836, Kirtland, Ohio; see also Messenger and Advocate, Mar. 1836, p. 277.

â??

When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, â??Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God.â?? Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: â??There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,â?? said he, â??when compared with the [living] oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.â?? That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: â??Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.â?? â?Wilford Woodruff, in Conference Report, Oct. 1897, pp. 22â??23; punctuation modernized; paragraph divisions altered.

"Whoever arrays himself in any manner against the authority which God has placed in His Church for its government, no matter who it is-one of the Twelve Apostles even, or any number of them-unless he repents God will withdraw His spirit and power from him."Collected Discourses 5:79-88. Discourse of 16 February 1896.

"There is one thing that the Lord has warned us about from the beginning [he said], and that is, not to speak evil of the Lord's anointed. He has told us that any member of the Church who indulged in this is liable to lose the Spirit of God and go into darkness. The Prophet Joseph said time and again that it was one of the first and strongest symptoms of apostasy. Have we not proved this? Have not his words upon this subject been fulfilled to the very letter? No man can do this without incurring the displeasure of the Lord. It may seem strange, in this age of irreverence and iconoclasm, to talk in this way. Nevertheless, this is the truth. God has chosen His servants. He claims it as His prerogative to condemn them, if they need condemnation. He has not given it to us individually to censure and condemn them. No man, however strong he may be in the faith, however high in the priesthood, can speak evil of the Lord's anointed and find fault with God's authority without incurring His displeasure. The Holy Spirit will withdraw itself from such a man, and he will go into darkness." Collected Discourses 5:221-226. Discourse of 6 October 1896.

It seems to me that if the Lord and these Bretheren where to post on MADB then they would tell us to follow these guys in doctrine, church government and morality:

[Notquitewetyet]

Mormon Fundamentalist have a method: only use the scriptures and quote Presidents of the Church and/or Prophets who were polygamists, because that is where you get the "pure" mormonism.

OK, lets see what they say.

Ask your self, what did the Quorum of the 12 do after the death of every Church President? Ordain and set apart a new Church President. When JFS died, who did the 12 ordain and set apart as the new Church President? Heber J. Grant, the Prophet of God.

It seems to me that if the Lord and these Bretheren where to post on MADB then they would tell us to follow these guys in doctrine, church government and morality

I just have this to say: Is it fair that I gave up the false church I was in and repented of my dead works in that church, if the CoJCoLDS is acting no different than the early Church when it apostatized?

[Olavarria]

I just have this to say: Is it fair that I gave up the false church I was in and repented of my dead works in that church, if the CoJCoLDS is acting no different than the early Church when it apostatized?

This is the way I see it.

doctrine=what the Church teaches today.

truth=things as they have been,will be and are.

All doctrine is true, but not all truth is doctrine.

The CoJCoLDS is NOT acting the same way the early Church did when it apostatized.

The CoJCoLDS still has the all the powers, doctrines and authorities nessecary to effectuate the nessesary ordinances and covenants of revealed religion. The same could not be said for the primitive Church.

The CoJCoLDS is still led by Jesus Christ.

The questian we should be asking is: What do Presidents Monson, Eyhring and Uchtdorf know that we don't know?

[Notquitewetyet]

This is the way I see it.

The questian we should be asking is: What do Presidents Monson, Eyhring and Uchtdorf know that we don't know?

Now the question we should be asking is: Why are they being silent?

Honestly, your OP is damned nonsense. I mean that in all its fulness, not just as a cussword. It is the same reasoning which keeps Catholics and Orthodox from accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet, and believing that the Pope/Archbishops are right. It keeps them from embracing the Restored Gospel, and dams up their progression. Honestly, show me how what you posted is in any different from this, excepting name changes:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp

[Olavarria]

Honestly, your OP is damned nonsense. I mean that in all its fulness, not just as a cussword.

No, my OP shows that "mormon fundamentalism" isn't grounded in the fundamentals of revealed religion.

Honestly, show me how what you posted is in any different from this, excepting name changes:

Ya, Joseph Smith to Thomas Monson are the real deal, they actually have the keys; and Leo to Benedict aren't and don't.

[jadams_4242]

No, my OP shows that "mormon fundamentalism" isn't grounded in the fundamentals of revealed religion.

Ya, Joseph Smith to Thomas Monson are the real deal, they actually have the keys; and Leo to Benedict aren't and don't.

I thought it was "linus" to benidict?

[Notquitewetyet]

.

Ya, Joseph Smith to Thomas Monson are the real deal, they actually have the keys; and Leo to Benedict aren't and don't.

And a Catholic will say that they do. This is just like Protestants with their sola scriptura nonsense. It's the Mormon/Catholic version of "my church is true 'cause it is." Do you see the circular reasoning man? Can you give me a better explanation?!

[Olavarria]

And a Catholic will say that they do. This is just like Protestants with their sola scriptura nonsense. It's the Mormon/Catholic version of "my church is true 'cause it is." Do you see the circular reasoning man? Can you give me a better explanation?!

It isn't circular reasoning. The pattern had been clearly set in both the scriptures and by polygamous prophets(for the fundies), the revelations,from the Lord, to the Church are to come through the 1st Presidency. When the President dies, the Presidency is disolved. When there is no 1 Pres, the Q of 12 runs the Church(it being in equal authority to the 1st Pres) and they can then rebuild the 1st Pres.

Joseph Smith was a prophet and this was the system that was restored through him.

Heber J Grant and every other President after him ascended to that office legitimatly and as WW said, the Lord will not place a man in that position and allow him to lead us astray.

Im sure you have a spiritual witness that Joseph Smith was a Prophet. Why don't you apply Moroni's promise to Heber J. Grant or Thomas S. Monson?

And a Catholic will say that they do? So what. Manny Pacqiao will tell you that he is one of the best prize fighter in the world, but does me saying the same thing suddenly make his claim untrue?

It doesn't matter what the Catholics, Jews, Methodists, Muslims or Fundies say what matters is what God says. Ask God. Ask Him if Pre. Grant was a prophet. Ask Him if Thomas Monson is a Prophet too.

[Olavarria]

Theologically, I probably agree more with someone like Owen Allred than I do with say...Robert Millet.

My beef isn't about Adam-God,Celestial Marriage, 2nd Anointings are anything like that..........I have come to not care about those things since debating it out on MADB.

My beef is with people who believe in parallel priesthood structures and in channels of divine revelation regarding plural marriage that are said to exist outside the Church.

My beef is with people who say that Thomas S. Monson is inferior in authority and credibility to Brigham Young, that he is just a nice guy who hung out with alot of old ladies and not a Prophet, Seer and Revelator in every sense of those words.

That is what the OP was about. The Lord and the earliest prophets of this dispensation set down some fundamental doctrines and so-called "mormon fundamentalism" doesn't folow those doctrines.

I dont care about what people believe half as much as I care about what they do.

Taking additional wives is wrong TODAY because no one is doing it with any authority which will cause such unions to last into the eternities. The FLDS, AUB, Kingstons and Le Barons DO NOT have the priesthood.

[kamenraider]

Theologically, I probably agree more with someone like Owen Allred than I do with say...Robert Millet.

My beef isn't about Adam-God,Celestial Marriage, 2nd Anointings are anything like that..........I have come to not care about those things since debating it out on MADB.

My beef is with people who believe in parallel priesthood structures and in channels of divine revelation regarding plural marriage that are said to exist outside the Church.

Speaking of Owen Allred, when the AUB people perform baptisms and confirmations they confirm the recipients as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not as members of the AUB or something. I understand that the Church does not recognize that, but my point is that they see themselves as being members of the Church, not separate from it.

During the polygamy raids in the 1880's it was customary for heads of families, who couldn't show up in public in order to perform ordinances such as baptism for their family members, to perform them in private and keep records of them, hoping to turn the records over to the Church at a later date. I think this precedent is part of the reason why fundamentalists aren't hesitant to function independent of the Church in regard to performing ordinances.

My beef is with people who say that Thomas S. Monson is inferior in authority and credibility to Brigham Young, that he is just a nice guy who hung out with alot of old ladies and not a Prophet, Seer and Revelator in every sense of those words.

Who says that? Do fundamentalists say that?

That is what the OP was about. The Lord and the earliest prophets of this dispensation set down some fundamental doctrines and so-called "mormon fundamentalism" doesn't folow those doctrines.

Jesus' teachings are pretty fundamental to LDS members. He says:

JST Mark 9:42-46

42 And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off.

43 It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched.

44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.

45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.

46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.

I dont care about what people believe half as much as I care about what they do.

Taking additional wives is wrong TODAY because no one is doing it with any authority which will cause such unions to last into the eternities. The FLDS, AUB, Kingstons and Le Barons DO NOT have the priesthood.

LDS members are taking additional wives with proper authority. My stepfather's first wife died and then he married my mother, also for eternity, a couple of years later. I've also heard of couples that divorce but are still sealed, and the husband remarries again for eternity.

In the original post, you say this: "Mormon Fundamentalist have a method: only use the scriptures and quote Presidents of the Church and/or Prophets who were polygamists, because that is where you get the 'pure' mormonism." This is incorrect and silly. Fundamentalists quote plenty of people who were not polygamists, such as J. Golden Kimball, Bruce R. McConkie, etc. What's with all the counter-fundamentalist threads lately? What are you trying to accomplish by posting them here where theres only maybe one fundamentalist that posts regularly? Why not post them on some fundamentalist message board? Are you trying to convince people here of things that they probably already agree with anyway, or are you trying to convince yourself of something, or what?

In all the dispensations of the Lord, and in all his dealings with the

children of men, he has pursued one uniform, undeviating course, though the

earth by revolutions may have changed, and man has been wavering and

fluctuating, God has declared concerning himself; "I am the Lord, and I change

not" and wherever we can trace the dealings of God with man, we shall find

that they have been unchangeable, he has always taught man by revelation. In

regard to the gospel, it is a principle that has always existed, in all ages

where God has had a pure church; and if the children of Israel were placed

under a school master, and the law was added, it "was because of

transgression," and not because of the changeableness of God, for he has

always pursued one uniform course, to edify, instruct, and give the world a

knowledge of his law; and in unfolding the principles of truth to the human

family, he never instructed them at random, nor suffered them to go according

to their notions, or at the bidding of men; they never wage "a warfare at

their own charge" but they were endued with power from on high; wisdom and

intelligence was given through the great source of the priesthood, which God

has given to regulate the affairs of his kingdom, and thus being endowed and

qualified by the wisdom and intelligence that God has imparted, they were

prepared to unfold the gospel of Jesus Christ to a fallen world. If this has

been God's way of dealing with the children of men, it naturally follows that

it will continue to be, and if the preachers of the gospel in primitive days,

were thus called and empowered, it follows as a natural consequence, that it

will continue to be, and that as God is immutable, and unchangeable, whenever

he calls men in any age of the world, he will qualify, and inspire them, in

the same manner. And if they are thus taught, whether in this age, in ages

that are past, or that are yet to come, there will be a uniformity in

doctrine, and ordinances, they will teach the same things. There have been

many who have professed to be called of God; but their doctrines have been

diverse, and their ordinances conflicting. The reason of this difference is,

that they have not been taught of God, nor inspired from on high; but their

learning has been merely scholastic and their wisdom the science of men. Thus

situated, it is impossible that they should teach correct principles; for man

is finite and fallible, and God is infinite and infallible, and it is

impossible for the people of this, or of any other age, to comprehend the

Creator without being taught of him.

--Times & Seasons 4:236-237

[Olavarria]

Speaking of Owen Allred, when the AUB people perform baptisms and confirmations they confirm the recipients as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not as members of the AUB or something. I understand that the Church does not recognize that, but my point is that they see themselves as being members of the Church, not separate from it.

They also set aside time to watch General COnference, so what?

What's with all the counter-fundamentalist threads lately? What are you trying to accomplish by posting them here where theres only maybe one fundamentalist that posts regularly? Why not post them on some fundamentalist message board? Are you trying to convince people here of things that they probably already agree with anyway, or are you trying to convince yourself of something, or what?

I have started several threads that relate to plural marriage, Adam-God and other things. Im just making it very clear: we can philosophize,hypothesize, style and profile about these varied topics; but in the end, the Keys of the priesthood are in the Church and no where else. Thats my point.